What type of enthusiast are you? - Page 3

FyredUp · February 11, 2009, 05:42 PM

eric,

The problem with your being okay with registering guns to prevent straw purchases, but not for confiscation, is how do you seperate the 2? It is impossible. My whole issue is with registration, not with background checks, or keeping criminals, kids, or the mentally ill from having guns.

In fact I will concede the background check. I will go on record as being in favor of a background check to show you are legally able to purchase a gun. If you pass the background check that is ALL the government needs to know. They don't need to know if I bought a 1911 .45 ACP pistol or a BushMaster AR-15, anymore tham they need to know whether I bought a 19 inch color tv or a 52 inch plasma tv.

Registration is the first step to confiscation. It worked pretty darn well for a funny mustached corporal in the mid to late 30's. Don't fool yourself into believing that it can't happen here. It can and just might. Starts with silly things like 10 round mags, and certain guns can't be imported, or guns can't be sold with certain attachments. It is a slippery slope and resistance is needed. Prosecute the criminals, and stop making criminals out of law abiding gun enthusiasts.

kyle663 · February 11, 2009, 07:59 PM

eric, no offense but your reasoning sounds just like the story bloomberg tried using to get his way with out of state dealers. federal law requires a background check on any firearm purchased from a dealer. any dealer caught not doing this will loose his license.

EricReynolds · February 11, 2009, 09:39 PM

ok points taken, however the point about a dealer losing their license is a irrelevent because most dealer are reputable. Any resident of a state that doesn't require registration can buy and sell guns. He doesn't need an FFL and he's in the clear as long as he doesn't get caught red handed. Registration would make a person a lot less likely to do such a thing. I also hear the argument that's it's a slippery slope to confiscation. It can be seperated though. It would lay in the wording of the legislation. Registration solely for the purpose of accountability and not for confiscation. You have to ask yourself though, why would our government want to confiscate? I just don't see it happening. Even the leftest of the left who want people to jump through hoops to have a gun aren't serious about outright banning. The thought is laughable. I have a good gripe myself living in a "may issue" state and in a difficult county to receive a permit, but I have faith over pessimism. I honestly believe that my state and my nation have laws with the best intentions in mind. I don't think they mean to inconvenience me. I live somewhere that is a pain in the butt. Other places I think it's a little too easy. There's a happy medium we can come to. I also favor everyone having to take a firearms safety course before owning a gun. You have to before you're allowed to drive a car, it only seems logical. I live in a state that won't allow me to have an eleven round clip. Ridiculous. Background checks? Obviously make sense. Having to be in the inner circle of a judge's friends to carry? Retarded. I'm a gun enthusiast. A moderate one.

gollbladder13 · February 11, 2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Gun registration may exist in Wisconsin but it doesn't everywhere

Last I checked IIRC, registration isn't required in WI... but I could be wrong or maybe read something the wrong way?

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbys.../gunlaw_wi.htm

Don't know the rep of the site, but it's what I found...

Quote:

Handguns

* Permit to purchase handgun? No.

* Registration of handguns? No.

* Licensing of owners of handguns? No.

* Permit to carry handguns? N/A

Anyways, about the OP... I come from a fairly anti-gun family, and when I told them I want to pursue a career in LE, their first reaction was about guns, and I don't talk much to my friends about it since none of them are gun owners. Usually it just raises eyebrows and occasionally sparks a debate with antis that are as stubborn as the next person...

Hawg · February 11, 2009, 10:03 PM

Quote:

"Should convicted felons be allowed to own guns? How about people with mental illness? Children?"

Felons? Depends on the felony
Mentally ill? If they're still self sufficient I don't have a problem with it.
Children? I don't have a problem with that either if they're supervised until they've proven they're mature enough to be left on their own with one.
I don't have a problem with background checks to determine if there is a gun related felony but that's it. I'm against any kind of registration or waiting period.

roy reali · February 11, 2009, 10:13 PM

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~weinfurt/gun.html

Go the above link. Scroll down the page a bit. You will find the name of someone that agrees that gun registration is a great idea.

gollbladder13 · February 11, 2009, 10:15 PM

Waiting period, I've been converted. "It's my gun, and I want it now!" (not sure if the commercial referenced is only local...)

Registration is either way for me. I don't care if the government knows whether or not I have a gun, but if it came down to it (traffic stop, etc.) first thing I'd do is say I have one, for their safety and mine. I'll just move slowly...

pax · February 11, 2009, 10:37 PM

"5. Waiting periods lower crime rates. False. Numerous studies have been conducted on the effects of waiting periods, both before and after the federal Brady bill was passed in 1993. Those studies consistently show that there is no correlation between waiting periods and murder or robbery rates. Florida State University professor Gary Kleck analyzed data from every U.S. city with a population over 100,000 and found that waiting periods had no statistically significant effect. Even University of Maryland anti-gun researcher David McDowell found that "waiting periods have no influence on either gun homicides or gun suicides." -- David Lampo from the Cato Institute here

A cooling-off period for handgun purchases requires a number of unlikely assumptions in order to work. First, the potential murderer - denied a handgun immediately - must then decide not to buy a rifle or a shotgun, which the Brady Bill will allow him to do. Then he must not know how to buy a handgun on the black market, or how to obtain one from friends, relatives or acquaintances. In addition, the type of murder he intends must not be one for which readily available alternative weapons, such as knives, automobiles, or bare hands, will work. Finally, the person who was literally ready to commit a murder on Day One of the waiting period must calm down by Day Seven and stay calm from that day forward. -- David B. Kopel

Without wanting to get into other areas, let's acknowledge that the most people who believee that a 3- or 5-day national waiting period for firearms purchases is perfectly reasonable also oppose a 24-hour waiting period for abortions as a blatantly unconstitutional infringement of a constitutional right. The same people who support the absolute discretion of unelected officials to prevent an individual from purchasing, owning or carrying a firearm, knowing that the poor, women, members of racial and ethnic minority groups, and those holding unpopular political opinions are much more likely to denied than are others, also tend to support judicial intervention to assure that the free market doesn't produce inferior educational or economic outcomes for these same people. The same people who proudly quote Martin Luther King, Jr, in asserting that "a right delayed is a right denied," claim that waiting periods, one a month limits and other such laws are not an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms (even though they may deny such a right exists), but merely "reasonable" regulation. -- Ken Maurer

GREAT article: http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/0...iting-periods/

Another EXCELLENT article (this one from Clayton Cramer): http://www.claytoncramer.com/popular/cawait2.html

And one more: http://realclearpolitics.com/Comment..._19_05_JS.html (John Stossel wrote that one.)

Finally: http://www.goodguyswin.org/informati...em.asp?ID=1645

Every person has a right to be wrong in his opinions. No one has the right to be wrong in his facts.

pax

the swede · February 11, 2009, 11:04 PM

Quote:

I'm not mad. Frankly, I think you are a drama queen in the way you approached this. Your do you think felons should have guns? Or kids? Or people with mental illness? Is just plain silly and a waste of time and energy here. I haven't heard a single person advocate letting those groups own guns. Please show me one person on this forum that supports your preposterous stance on this...You can't find a single one because no one will back you. On top of that you know damn well that law prevents your target groups from owning firearms so what was you real point in posting this? To be a pot stirrer? To try and catch someone with your idiotic premise? What?

You are not a moderate anything. If you follow your line of thinking any group YOU decide shouldn't have a gun doesn't get one. An example of how you would whittle away our rights under the Second Ammendment is your working security. Why must someone work security in order to have a concealed carry permit? If they are a law abiding citizen and can pass the requirements to get a permit they should be able to get one. Yet you seem willing to sell that out to only people working security.

I see you as more of an anti-gun rights person than a moderate and I feel sorry for your inability to see that.

+1000.

I was thinking exactly the same thing before I even came to this post. He wants an argument for sure.

Eric, your line of thinking makes me ILL.

gollbladder13 · February 11, 2009, 11:14 PM

Pax...

I have since edited my post (I don't know if your comments were directed at me or everybody, but I felt the need to do so, anyways). Thanks for the info!

aaalaska · February 11, 2009, 11:29 PM

Once saw a film clip of a holocaust survivor, when ask how they let this happen ,he said, they had all the guns.I'm sure the Germans registering guns under the new rules never expected storm troopers at their doors demanding surrender of their guns. No matter how civilized we think we are or how far we think we have moved ,we are only one mistake away from the same ,considering the thousands of gun laws in a nation where it is against the constitution to enact gun lawswe are lucky to have any guns at all.By the way do you know how many laws are on the books in this great land that will make you a felon, if you do your better than the federal gov.because they say they lost count. Alex

SIGSHR · February 11, 2009, 11:55 PM

I am primarily a collector, when people ask I say I am buying them for the history, I am also a reenactor and living historian, that is a good way to start
a conversation about guns.

kyle663 · February 12, 2009, 07:39 AM

In case you havent heard Eric, Obama wants the so colled assault weapons ban made permanent and expanded. something even congress admitted had no effect on crime. so down the slope we slide. lets list now all the things we have given up our rights to in the name of society. kids no longer are allowed to privately pray in school, anything said that anyone could even vaguely be offended to can get you put in jail. there goes freedom of speech and religon. now you want us to give up our right to own guns without the government knowing what we have? the slope is getting slipperier avery day.

sserdlihc · February 12, 2009, 08:11 AM

Quote:

kids no longer are allowed to privately pray in school,

Not in South Carolina!

My child observes a moment of silence,privately,when she sits down at the breakfast and lunch tables. Publicly, there isn't prayer in schools. But she can privately pray when and where she deems necessary.

kyle663 · February 12, 2009, 08:23 AM

dont let the aclu hear about it. kids have been suspended from schools for reading a bible at school during recess. and alot of schools no longer have a christmas progam, its a holiday program. in a local town close to me there was a sign on the courthouse. that had the same phrase as paper money on it "IN GOD WE TRUST" the aclu sued or threatened to sue if it was not removed.

chemgirlie · February 12, 2009, 08:58 AM

No gun registration here in WI (at least not yet).

doh_312 · February 12, 2009, 12:29 PM

On the thought of gun control. Take a look at NY. Now I saw this in a movie, so obviously it's not real life, but I have no doubts in my mind that this can and does happen. The movie is "The Brave One", main character is victim of a horrible beating that kills her boyfriend and hospitalizes her for weeks. After she's discharged she's scared and scarred. She goes to a legit gun dealer and asks to buy one. Gun dealer asks for her firearms license then denies her a gun because she doesn't have her license to own a firearm. She walks out empty handed and is immediatly met with an illegal gun dealer who sells her a gun with in five minutes. Yes it's just a movie, but I'll bet my entire gun collection that this happens almost daily. Legal citizens denied legal means to gun ownership because of legal restrictions/regulations. Yet five minutes with an illegal gun dealer and your good to roll. These restrictions we have now are too much. Dumb it all back down to simply a background check to weed out felons and violent criminals, mentaly unfit, and those underage. However, I wouldn't gripe if all our gun restrictions were removed. Sure felons having guns scare me but that's why I have guns myself. Just because a criminal can't get a gun from Bass Pro, Gander Mnt, local gun and sporting goods stores, doesn't mean he can't get one illegally anyway. I just hope I can get the bad guy before he gets me. After all, isn't that why we carry protection? Get them so we survive to see our family? We already have so many gun restrictions and yet we still have so much gun crime. Criminals don't fear gun laws, they break them. HELLO! THEY'RE CRIMINALS! Not law abiding, duh. You want to stop a criminal in his tracks? Throw your legislative paperwork at him and tell him he can not do what he's doing. Or give him two .45's to the chest and one to the head.

EricReynolds · February 12, 2009, 04:50 PM

Couple retorts. Kyle, I work in a school in NY of all places and students privately praying isn't an offense. It's school mmandated prayers and moments of silence that have been done away with. Suspended for reading the bible? Where did that happen? Probably not a topic for this forum though, it's not gun related. Also, not in favor of bringing back the assault weapons ban. Even though I live in NY and it's a moot point, I never mentioned anything about that and the comment was directed it towards me.
Aalaska, are you likening our goverment to the Nazi regime? If an outright ban was ever imposed, who would be doing the confiscating? The ATF doesn't have the manpower. The military wouldn't do it. I'm an Army Ranger who served on both ends of the conflict and no one I know would be rounding up Americans' weapons. D'oh, it is just a movie. Even here in NY where that movie is set, a permit isn't impossible. To carry is difficult, but still possible. Illegal dealers don't operate like that, movies like Taxi Driver and this one perpetuate a myth. Bad guys can get a gun from an illegal dealer, because they all know each other. If a regular Joe walks through a housing project asking, "Where can I get a gun?" You will not get one. The only reason you might not be robbed is if they think you're an undercover cop.
That was a good movie though.

kyle663 · February 12, 2009, 05:46 PM

Eric, first thank you for your service. second just google student suspended for praying or bible, theres plenty of cases. third all my comments were'nt directed completely at you, i am just stating that giving up any right leads to giving up more rights. lastly if your comander in chief orders a weapon confiscation, some would refuse and some wouldnt. look at new orleans and tell me it cant happen.

FyredUp · February 12, 2009, 07:19 PM

gollbladder13,

I would suggest you post all of the relevant info from a site that you quote.

Quote:

Other Requirements

Is there a State waiting period? Yes. 2-day wait for handguns.

Is there a FBI *NICS check for firearm transactions? Handguns are checked through a state system, long guns via National Instant Check System (NICS)

Permit to carry a concealed weapon required? Not allowed.

Record of sale: Yes.

What is a record of sale? It has my name and information on the handgun I purchased. Is it registration? Perhaps not legally, but if the government wants to know what you purchased and where it is, they can. If they know what and where I would think they can come and get it if they choose.

FyredUp · February 12, 2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

EricReynolds:

ok points taken, however the point about a dealer losing their license is a irrelevent because most dealer are reputable. Any resident of a state that doesn't require registration can buy and sell guns. He doesn't need an FFL and he's in the clear as long as he doesn't get caught red handed. Registration would make a person a lot less likely to do such a thing. I also hear the argument that's it's a slippery slope to confiscation. It can be seperated though. It would lay in the wording of the legislation. Registration solely for the purpose of accountability and not for confiscation. You have to ask yourself though, why would our government want to confiscate? I just don't see it happening. Even the leftest of the left who want people to jump through hoops to have a gun aren't serious about outright banning. The thought is laughable. I have a good gripe myself living in a "may issue" state and in a difficult county to receive a permit, but I have faith over pessimism. I honestly believe that my state and my nation have laws with the best intentions in mind. I don't think they mean to inconvenience me. I live somewhere that is a pain in the butt. Other places I think it's a little too easy. There's a happy medium we can come to. I also favor everyone having to take a firearms safety course before owning a gun. You have to before you're allowed to drive a car, it only seems logical. I live in a state that won't allow me to have an eleven round clip. Ridiculous. Background checks? Obviously make sense. Having to be in the inner circle of a judge's friends to carry? Retarded. I'm a gun enthusiast. A moderate one.

Again, I think you are delusional. Of course it wouldn't be an obvious step that registration would or could lead to confiscation. Why does the government need to know what I purchased? You have a far greater trust in politicians than I do if you believe for one second that that information would ever stay seperated from the government if national gun bans were implemented. Despite legislation to the opposite.

Laughable? Really? I don't find any of this funny in the least. The fact that people are scared and buying up guns and ammunition is proof that people believe restrictions and bans are entirely possible.

Laws with your best interest in mind? Yet a couple of lines later you bemoan the 10 shot magazine and the inability to get a CCP. Which is it? Best interest or you are unhappy?

I have conceded the background check issue. But that is as far as it goes with me. The government doesn't need to know what type of gun I bought.

NO registration. NO new laws that don't actually affect criminals. NO infringement on the rights of law abiding citizens to own guns.

Any .45 · February 12, 2009, 07:51 PM

Stalin, Hitler, Castro, Trujillo, Kim Jong-il, King Abdullah, Muammar al--Qaddafi, Robert Mugabe, Hu Jintao, Seyed Ali Khamenei, Omar al-Bashir, Islam Karimov, Saparmurat Niyazov.

Giving Gov't to much power by allowing small things such as total Registration of firearms for whatever means or by allowing revolutionaries to manipulate our gov't into doing brash actions like gun confiscation and curfews to avoid violence are exactly how people like this got into power. Words like prohibit and restrict can easily be manipulted to confiscate due to restriction or arrest and confiscate because its prohibited. Be careful what you wish for my friend. I to have been around the world and in places not nice to americans and trust me no matter how far gone the tyranny or communism is, the people still show it in there characters.

"What is clear already, however, is that Communists and other dictators are entirely correct in their fear of an armed populace."

"Unless restrained, all governments devolve to tyranny."

"It can never be assured, nor should we ever believe, that government could never become oppressive and devolve into tyranny."

Any law the electorate sees as being open to being perverted from its original intent will be perverted in a manner that is worse than the manner of perversion seen at the time.
Any law that is so difficult to pass it requires the citizens be assured it will not be a stepping stone to worse laws will in fact be a stepping stone to worse laws.
Any law that requires the citizens be assured the law does not mean what the citizens fear, means exactly what the citizens fear.
Any law passed in a good cause will be interperated to apply to causes against the wishes of the people.
Any law enacted to help any one group will be applied to harm people not in that group.
Everything the government says will never happen will happen.
What the government says it could not foresee, the government has planned for.
When there is a budget shortfall to cover non-essential government services the citizens will be given the choice between higher taxes or the loss of essential government services.
Should the citizens mount a successful effort to stop a piece of legislation the same legislation will be passed under a different name.
All deprivations of freedom and choice will be increased rather than reversed.

EricReynolds · February 12, 2009, 08:31 PM

Kyle I hear you. The New Orleans thing was ridiculous. The unreasonable end of the left is going to come around though. D.C. residents can own a gun now. I wouldn't say I have that much faith in politicians rather than faith in the government itself. In the same post I criticized 10 shot mags because as I've said all along, some restrictions I agree with and some I don't. Some I think make sense and some I don't. It's my answer to this thread, I'm a moderate enthusiast.

SPUSCG · February 12, 2009, 08:46 PM

im the guy who shoots every gun i can, gets in heated debates with antis, denounces them for supporting criminals, writes position papers on gun control every time i can, and at the range shoot anything that goes bang, scattergun plinking is even fun

EricReynolds · February 12, 2009, 08:49 PM

One other thought for registration. I don't think that the government needs to keep tabs on YOU and what YOU own. I think they need to keep tabs on the GUNS. I would only support the government using registration for tracking where illegally owned guns come from. I know to people this seems like the same thing, but understand my logic. I don't want the government to have too much control over us, but what is to stop people who live in states without registration from selling guns illegally? If I were to sell my gun illegally and it then wound up in police custody, I would have explaining to do and I'd likely be arrested on felony gun charge. Rightfully so, and the only reason the cops would know it was my gun is because it's registered. On the other hand, on the day when they come to take all our guns, they'll know what I have. I just don't believe that day is coming. I really do not believe it's something to worry about. If I did, I'd probably have a different opinion of the issue. Another thing; who among you that compare the United States to Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia call yourself proud Americans? Are any of you veterans that have such little faith in our government? I find it disheartening.

February 11, 2009, 07:59 PM	#52
kyle663 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: IL Posts: 311	eric, no offense but your reasoning sounds just like the story bloomberg tried using to get his way with out of state dealers. federal law requires a background check on any firearm purchased from a dealer. any dealer caught not doing this will loose his license. __________________ NRA member 22LR,17hmr, 9mm, 9mm makarov, 38 S&W, 38/357, 41mag, 44mag, 45ACP, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, 222rem

February 11, 2009, 10:13 PM	#56
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Others Agree http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~weinfurt/gun.html Go the above link. Scroll down the page a bit. You will find the name of someone that agrees that gun registration is a great idea.

February 11, 2009, 10:15 PM	#57
gollbladder13 Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Location: Milwaukee area Posts: 42	Waiting period, I've been converted. "It's my gun, and I want it now!" (not sure if the commercial referenced is only local...) Registration is either way for me. I don't care if the government knows whether or not I have a gun, but if it came down to it (traffic stop, etc.) first thing I'd do is say I have one, for their safety and mine. I'll just move slowly... Last edited by gollbladder13; February 11, 2009 at 11:13 PM. Reason: foiled by pax

February 11, 2009, 10:37 PM	#58
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	"5. Waiting periods lower crime rates. False. Numerous studies have been conducted on the effects of waiting periods, both before and after the federal Brady bill was passed in 1993. Those studies consistently show that there is no correlation between waiting periods and murder or robbery rates. Florida State University professor Gary Kleck analyzed data from every U.S. city with a population over 100,000 and found that waiting periods had no statistically significant effect. Even University of Maryland anti-gun researcher David McDowell found that "waiting periods have no influence on either gun homicides or gun suicides." -- David Lampo from the Cato Institute here A cooling-off period for handgun purchases requires a number of unlikely assumptions in order to work. First, the potential murderer - denied a handgun immediately - must then decide not to buy a rifle or a shotgun, which the Brady Bill will allow him to do. Then he must not know how to buy a handgun on the black market, or how to obtain one from friends, relatives or acquaintances. In addition, the type of murder he intends must not be one for which readily available alternative weapons, such as knives, automobiles, or bare hands, will work. Finally, the person who was literally ready to commit a murder on Day One of the waiting period must calm down by Day Seven and stay calm from that day forward. -- David B. Kopel Without wanting to get into other areas, let's acknowledge that the most people who believee that a 3- or 5-day national waiting period for firearms purchases is perfectly reasonable also oppose a 24-hour waiting period for abortions as a blatantly unconstitutional infringement of a constitutional right. The same people who support the absolute discretion of unelected officials to prevent an individual from purchasing, owning or carrying a firearm, knowing that the poor, women, members of racial and ethnic minority groups, and those holding unpopular political opinions are much more likely to denied than are others, also tend to support judicial intervention to assure that the free market doesn't produce inferior educational or economic outcomes for these same people. The same people who proudly quote Martin Luther King, Jr, in asserting that "a right delayed is a right denied," claim that waiting periods, one a month limits and other such laws are not an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms (even though they may deny such a right exists), but merely "reasonable" regulation. -- Ken Maurer GREAT article: http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/0...iting-periods/ Another EXCELLENT article (this one from Clayton Cramer): http://www.claytoncramer.com/popular/cawait2.html And one more: http://realclearpolitics.com/Comment..._19_05_JS.html (John Stossel wrote that one.) Finally: http://www.goodguyswin.org/informati...em.asp?ID=1645 Every person has a right to be wrong in his opinions. No one has the right to be wrong in his facts. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat Last edited by pax; February 11, 2009 at 10:54 PM.

February 12, 2009, 07:39 AM	#63
kyle663 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: IL Posts: 311	In case you havent heard Eric, Obama wants the so colled assault weapons ban made permanent and expanded. something even congress admitted had no effect on crime. so down the slope we slide. lets list now all the things we have given up our rights to in the name of society. kids no longer are allowed to privately pray in school, anything said that anyone could even vaguely be offended to can get you put in jail. there goes freedom of speech and religon. now you want us to give up our right to own guns without the government knowing what we have? the slope is getting slipperier avery day. __________________ NRA member 22LR,17hmr, 9mm, 9mm makarov, 38 S&W, 38/357, 41mag, 44mag, 45ACP, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, 222rem

February 11, 2009, 05:42 PM	#51
FyredUp Junior member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 673	eric, The problem with your being okay with registering guns to prevent straw purchases, but not for confiscation, is how do you seperate the 2? It is impossible. My whole issue is with registration, not with background checks, or keeping criminals, kids, or the mentally ill from having guns. In fact I will concede the background check. I will go on record as being in favor of a background check to show you are legally able to purchase a gun. If you pass the background check that is ALL the government needs to know. They don't need to know if I bought a 1911 .45 ACP pistol or a BushMaster AR-15, anymore tham they need to know whether I bought a 19 inch color tv or a 52 inch plasma tv. Registration is the first step to confiscation. It worked pretty darn well for a funny mustached corporal in the mid to late 30's. Don't fool yourself into believing that it can't happen here. It can and just might. Starts with silly things like 10 round mags, and certain guns can't be imported, or guns can't be sold with certain attachments. It is a slippery slope and resistance is needed. Prosecute the criminals, and stop making criminals out of law abiding gun enthusiasts.

February 11, 2009, 09:39 PM	#53
EricReynolds Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 393	ok points taken, however the point about a dealer losing their license is a irrelevent because most dealer are reputable. Any resident of a state that doesn't require registration can buy and sell guns. He doesn't need an FFL and he's in the clear as long as he doesn't get caught red handed. Registration would make a person a lot less likely to do such a thing. I also hear the argument that's it's a slippery slope to confiscation. It can be seperated though. It would lay in the wording of the legislation. Registration solely for the purpose of accountability and not for confiscation. You have to ask yourself though, why would our government want to confiscate? I just don't see it happening. Even the leftest of the left who want people to jump through hoops to have a gun aren't serious about outright banning. The thought is laughable. I have a good gripe myself living in a "may issue" state and in a difficult county to receive a permit, but I have faith over pessimism. I honestly believe that my state and my nation have laws with the best intentions in mind. I don't think they mean to inconvenience me. I live somewhere that is a pain in the butt. Other places I think it's a little too easy. There's a happy medium we can come to. I also favor everyone having to take a firearms safety course before owning a gun. You have to before you're allowed to drive a car, it only seems logical. I live in a state that won't allow me to have an eleven round clip. Ridiculous. Background checks? Obviously make sense. Having to be in the inner circle of a judge's friends to carry? Retarded. I'm a gun enthusiast. A moderate one.

February 11, 2009, 11:14 PM	#60
gollbladder13 Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Location: Milwaukee area Posts: 42	Pax... I have since edited my post (I don't know if your comments were directed at me or everybody, but I felt the need to do so, anyways). Thanks for the info!

February 11, 2009, 11:29 PM	#61
aaalaska Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2007 Location: Palmer Ak Posts: 319	Once saw a film clip of a holocaust survivor, when ask how they let this happen ,he said, they had all the guns.I'm sure the Germans registering guns under the new rules never expected storm troopers at their doors demanding surrender of their guns. No matter how civilized we think we are or how far we think we have moved ,we are only one mistake away from the same ,considering the thousands of gun laws in a nation where it is against the constitution to enact gun lawswe are lucky to have any guns at all.By the way do you know how many laws are on the books in this great land that will make you a felon, if you do your better than the federal gov.because they say they lost count. Alex

February 11, 2009, 11:55 PM	#62
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	I am primarily a collector, when people ask I say I am buying them for the history, I am also a reenactor and living historian, that is a good way to start a conversation about guns.

February 12, 2009, 08:23 AM	#65
kyle663 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: IL Posts: 311	dont let the aclu hear about it. kids have been suspended from schools for reading a bible at school during recess. and alot of schools no longer have a christmas progam, its a holiday program. in a local town close to me there was a sign on the courthouse. that had the same phrase as paper money on it "IN GOD WE TRUST" the aclu sued or threatened to sue if it was not removed. __________________ NRA member 22LR,17hmr, 9mm, 9mm makarov, 38 S&W, 38/357, 41mag, 44mag, 45ACP, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, 222rem

February 12, 2009, 08:58 AM	#66
chemgirlie Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 331	No gun registration here in WI (at least not yet).

February 12, 2009, 12:29 PM	#67
doh_312 Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2008 Posts: 312	On the thought of gun control. Take a look at NY. Now I saw this in a movie, so obviously it's not real life, but I have no doubts in my mind that this can and does happen. The movie is "The Brave One", main character is victim of a horrible beating that kills her boyfriend and hospitalizes her for weeks. After she's discharged she's scared and scarred. She goes to a legit gun dealer and asks to buy one. Gun dealer asks for her firearms license then denies her a gun because she doesn't have her license to own a firearm. She walks out empty handed and is immediatly met with an illegal gun dealer who sells her a gun with in five minutes. Yes it's just a movie, but I'll bet my entire gun collection that this happens almost daily. Legal citizens denied legal means to gun ownership because of legal restrictions/regulations. Yet five minutes with an illegal gun dealer and your good to roll. These restrictions we have now are too much. Dumb it all back down to simply a background check to weed out felons and violent criminals, mentaly unfit, and those underage. However, I wouldn't gripe if all our gun restrictions were removed. Sure felons having guns scare me but that's why I have guns myself. Just because a criminal can't get a gun from Bass Pro, Gander Mnt, local gun and sporting goods stores, doesn't mean he can't get one illegally anyway. I just hope I can get the bad guy before he gets me. After all, isn't that why we carry protection? Get them so we survive to see our family? We already have so many gun restrictions and yet we still have so much gun crime. Criminals don't fear gun laws, they break them. HELLO! THEY'RE CRIMINALS! Not law abiding, duh. You want to stop a criminal in his tracks? Throw your legislative paperwork at him and tell him he can not do what he's doing. Or give him two .45's to the chest and one to the head.

February 12, 2009, 04:50 PM	#68
EricReynolds Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 393	Couple retorts. Kyle, I work in a school in NY of all places and students privately praying isn't an offense. It's school mmandated prayers and moments of silence that have been done away with. Suspended for reading the bible? Where did that happen? Probably not a topic for this forum though, it's not gun related. Also, not in favor of bringing back the assault weapons ban. Even though I live in NY and it's a moot point, I never mentioned anything about that and the comment was directed it towards me. Aalaska, are you likening our goverment to the Nazi regime? If an outright ban was ever imposed, who would be doing the confiscating? The ATF doesn't have the manpower. The military wouldn't do it. I'm an Army Ranger who served on both ends of the conflict and no one I know would be rounding up Americans' weapons. D'oh, it is just a movie. Even here in NY where that movie is set, a permit isn't impossible. To carry is difficult, but still possible. Illegal dealers don't operate like that, movies like Taxi Driver and this one perpetuate a myth. Bad guys can get a gun from an illegal dealer, because they all know each other. If a regular Joe walks through a housing project asking, "Where can I get a gun?" You will not get one. The only reason you might not be robbed is if they think you're an undercover cop. That was a good movie though.

February 12, 2009, 05:46 PM	#69
kyle663 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: IL Posts: 311	Eric, first thank you for your service. second just google student suspended for praying or bible, theres plenty of cases. third all my comments were'nt directed completely at you, i am just stating that giving up any right leads to giving up more rights. lastly if your comander in chief orders a weapon confiscation, some would refuse and some wouldnt. look at new orleans and tell me it cant happen. __________________ NRA member 22LR,17hmr, 9mm, 9mm makarov, 38 S&W, 38/357, 41mag, 44mag, 45ACP, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, 222rem

February 12, 2009, 07:51 PM	#72
Any .45 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2004 Location: SW FLORIDA, USA Posts: 604	Stalin, Hitler, Castro, Trujillo, Kim Jong-il, King Abdullah, Muammar al--Qaddafi, Robert Mugabe, Hu Jintao, Seyed Ali Khamenei, Omar al-Bashir, Islam Karimov, Saparmurat Niyazov. Giving Gov't to much power by allowing small things such as total Registration of firearms for whatever means or by allowing revolutionaries to manipulate our gov't into doing brash actions like gun confiscation and curfews to avoid violence are exactly how people like this got into power. Words like prohibit and restrict can easily be manipulted to confiscate due to restriction or arrest and confiscate because its prohibited. Be careful what you wish for my friend. I to have been around the world and in places not nice to americans and trust me no matter how far gone the tyranny or communism is, the people still show it in there characters. "What is clear already, however, is that Communists and other dictators are entirely correct in their fear of an armed populace." "Unless restrained, all governments devolve to tyranny." "It can never be assured, nor should we ever believe, that government could never become oppressive and devolve into tyranny." Any law the electorate sees as being open to being perverted from its original intent will be perverted in a manner that is worse than the manner of perversion seen at the time. Any law that is so difficult to pass it requires the citizens be assured it will not be a stepping stone to worse laws will in fact be a stepping stone to worse laws. Any law that requires the citizens be assured the law does not mean what the citizens fear, means exactly what the citizens fear. Any law passed in a good cause will be interperated to apply to causes against the wishes of the people. Any law enacted to help any one group will be applied to harm people not in that group. Everything the government says will never happen will happen. What the government says it could not foresee, the government has planned for. When there is a budget shortfall to cover non-essential government services the citizens will be given the choice between higher taxes or the loss of essential government services. Should the citizens mount a successful effort to stop a piece of legislation the same legislation will be passed under a different name. All deprivations of freedom and choice will be increased rather than reversed. __________________ Foster and polish The warior spirit While serving in the world; Illuminate the path According to your inner light" "Spring forth from the Great Earth; Billow like Great Waves; Stand like a tree, sit like a rock; Use One to strike All. Learn and forget! " "At the instant A warrior Confronts a foe, All things Come into focus" Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) Founder of Aikido

February 12, 2009, 08:31 PM	#73
EricReynolds Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 393	Kyle I hear you. The New Orleans thing was ridiculous. The unreasonable end of the left is going to come around though. D.C. residents can own a gun now. I wouldn't say I have that much faith in politicians rather than faith in the government itself. In the same post I criticized 10 shot mags because as I've said all along, some restrictions I agree with and some I don't. Some I think make sense and some I don't. It's my answer to this thread, I'm a moderate enthusiast.

February 12, 2009, 08:46 PM	#74
SPUSCG Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2008 Posts: 3,004	im the guy who shoots every gun i can, gets in heated debates with antis, denounces them for supporting criminals, writes position papers on gun control every time i can, and at the range shoot anything that goes bang, scattergun plinking is even fun __________________ Check us out: www.imfdb.org. Fun site for people who love gun movies.

February 12, 2009, 08:49 PM	#75
EricReynolds Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 393	One other thought for registration. I don't think that the government needs to keep tabs on YOU and what YOU own. I think they need to keep tabs on the GUNS. I would only support the government using registration for tracking where illegally owned guns come from. I know to people this seems like the same thing, but understand my logic. I don't want the government to have too much control over us, but what is to stop people who live in states without registration from selling guns illegally? If I were to sell my gun illegally and it then wound up in police custody, I would have explaining to do and I'd likely be arrested on felony gun charge. Rightfully so, and the only reason the cops would know it was my gun is because it's registered. On the other hand, on the day when they come to take all our guns, they'll know what I have. I just don't believe that day is coming. I really do not believe it's something to worry about. If I did, I'd probably have a different opinion of the issue. Another thing; who among you that compare the United States to Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia call yourself proud Americans? Are any of you veterans that have such little faith in our government? I find it disheartening.