What type of enthusiast are you?

[Any .45]

Love my Country, Served my country (18B), don't find many things nice to say about our Gov't. Now read the the statement; I don't find many things nice to say but I do on occasion find some good things to say. I don't think that we compare our country to Stalins or Hitler, its the method to which means came about with gun reg. then gun confiscation. Castro did it in Cuba, alot of the aformentioned names in my last post did it as well. Then the were the revolutionaries that did things that forced the Gov't to take the guns away, like Castro. There was also the Tyrant Gen. Rafael Trujillo. Who was given so much power due to the lack of stablity. His rule gave the country stability and prosperity more than most living Dominicans had previously known. However, this came at a great cost. Civil rights and freedoms were virtually nonexistent....... This is not whats happening in our country now. But I tell you, with the economy in the basket and crime rising and a far out leftist in office, citizens panicking can cause bad things to happen and let bad things slip by and issues of that sort are where, we start to give up our civil rights and it always starts off small. Registration, limitation, restriction, prohibition, then confiscation. Histroy has shown us alot and if we can't see it and stop it before it gets there then we deserve it, and no way in hell should we give them willingly any part of the rights our fore fathers gave us because they didn't have where they came from.

[FyredUp]

EricReynolds:

One other thought for registration. I don't think that the government needs to keep tabs on YOU and what YOU own. I think they need to keep tabs on the GUNS. Ummm, another delusion. How do they keep track of the guns without knowing I OWN THEM? Seriously, I would love for you to explain how they will keep track of a 1911 sold at a gun store without specifically saying it was sold to me? I would only support the government using registration for tracking where illegally owned guns come from. Define what is an illegal gun? If the original owner purchased the gun legally and there are no restrictions on private sales how does the gun suddenly become illegal? I know to people this seems like the same thing, but understand my logic. I don't want the government to have too much control over us, but what is to stop people who live in states without registration from selling guns illegally? Explain what an illegal gun sale is between private parties. Assuming that the gun is legal to own, not a machine gun, and the person buying it can legally own it, how does the sale become illegal just because the sale goes across state lines? If I were to sell my gun illegally and it then wound up in police custody, I would have explaining to do and I'd likely be arrested on felony gun charge. See my question above. Rightfully so, and the only reason the cops would know it was my gun is because it's registered. Above you said they wouldn't need to know it was your gun. So which is it? On the other hand, on the day when they come to take all our guns, they'll know what I have. Ummm, duh? Why do you think so many private gun sales occur? I just don't believe that day is coming. I really do not believe it's something to worry about. If I did, I'd probably have a different opinion of the issue. And that is your right. Obviously, the massive increase in gun sales leading up to the election, and ammunition and some gun shortages mean a good quantity of people do have fears. Another thing; who among you that compare the United States to Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia call yourself proud Americans? Okay, unwrap the flag from around yourself and stay on topic. I frankly, find it incredibly insulting that you find it necessary to challenge people's patriotism because they have a healthy distrust of their government. Are any of you veterans that have such little faith in our government? Irrelevant to this topic. I find it disheartening. I find your talking in circles and inability to see that no matter what you call it registration is the governments direct path to confiscation disheartening.

Surrendering rights is a free pass to tyranny.

[EricReynolds]

An illegally owned gun would be one where the buyer is not allowed to own a gun. As we've already discussed, felons can't buy a gun. So, why not just have a friend buy it? No skin off the friend's nose, he can't get in trouble. It won't come back on him. Less likely to happen in New York. Who would buy a gun for someone else knowing that if that other person is caught with it, they will also get in trouble? That's what I mean by illegally sold and owned guns. Straw purchases.

[EricReynolds]

Questioning you on your service is not irrelevant because no veteran would ever have such distrust in our government.

[EricReynolds]

Any .45, you're a good guy. We don't agree on some issues, but you were at least civil with me in your reply. Take care friend.

[TheManHimself]

I believe any citizen should be able to purchase any firearm and ammunition he desires and can afford, with no restrictions, paperwork, or identification required.

I also believe that punishment for all violent crime should consist of death by hanging (Public hanging, preferably), and this fact should be drilled into citizens' minds, so that only the truly mentally defective would consider committing crimes - and they can't be reformed or re-integrated into society anyway, so there's no logical reason to keep them alive at all.

And despite what the liberal talking heads on TV tell you, the guys from the bad side of town who think it's OK to kill you and take your wallet for crack money, are mentally defective and should be killed, period.

[SigfanTN]

Eric, you obviously haven't bothered to take my advice, I see, or even looked at the links I posted or what pax posted. You could have read the first one...wouldn't have taken you but 2 minutes to get through that one. You could do a google search. This is your government that you trust. They betrayed that trust within the state you call home. There is nothing wrong with not trusting government. Our Founding Fathers did not trust government. They created a Bill of Rights to ensure that the government that they created would be unable to usurp those rights outlined within. This was their guarantee that no matter what government did going forward, the rights of man would be honored. This was not borne of trust. If it had been they wouldn't have bothered to add these ten amendments to the Constitution.

Who would buy a gun for someone else knowing that if that other person is caught with it, they will also get in trouble? That's what I mean by illegally sold and owned guns. Straw purchases.

If you think this is the only way guns used in crimes end up on the streets, you are being very naive. Can you produce any facts or statistics to support you arguments for registration showing that overall crime rates are reduced? Don't forget that violent crime doesn't require a firearm to occur, so make sure to include those using other weapons also.

...no veteran would ever have such distrust in our government.

This is a ridiculous statement. A veteran has as much ability to think for themselves as the next person. There are many on this forum, and I personally work with a few. I can tell you that the ones I work with make no bones about their distrust of government, and the encroachment into every facet of their lives that has taken place in the last few decades.

...you were at least civil with me in your reply

As were the majority of responses you've received up to this point.

You said earlier you might be turned around on this issue, but I don't believe you. If you read the info posted or did your own research, your blind faith and refusal to believe confiscation could be the result of registration, would surely have been shaken. Yet, you still say it isn't possible here. You are wrong.

[FyredUp]

EricReynolds:

Questioning you on your service is not irrelevant because no veteran would ever have such distrust in our government.

Really? Golly, I would like to ask the veterans of Viet Nam who suffered from Agent Orange poisoning, or the vets of Desert Storm who have returned and suffered numerous mysterious illnesses, how much they trust the government to do what's right. Your premise that it is somehow unpatriotic to question your government is quite simply wrong. The mere fact that we are supposedly free allows us to question our government and to change them at elections. I don't believe for one second that the founding fathers meant for patriotism to mean blindly believing everything that the government does is right. You don't pledge allegiance to the government, you pledge alliegance to the flag and country. If more people realized that the government serves at the whim of the electorate and we can change them virtually at will, we wouldn't have the runaway stupidity that we do in government.

Is it possible for you to answer my question on how you will register guns and yet not have a list of who owns what and where they are? You seem to believe it is possible to register guns and somehow not have that list available if the government decides to confiscate certain guns. I am all ears so please explain.

[22-rimfire]

Eric, I can see where you are coming from. You need to do more research and add more substance to your beliefs as far as gun control goes.

The whole problem is that when the government regulates anything, it will continue to regulate it more and more as time goes on based on the whims of the party or whether or not there was a VA Tech event or JFK assination.

As long as there are guns in our society, there will be gun crime. Even in England and Australia where firearm ownership and use is heavily restricted, they still have a problem and they want to regulate MORE. It never stops.

So, I drew the line with the NICs check. No more regulation. No more red tape. No more fees. No licenses. No registration. No registries. No FOID cards. No ammunition restrictions. No smart guns. No gun locks. No requirements for storage. NO NO NO!! BECAUSE the criminals will not abide by the law and the laws only restrict lawful owners from pursuing their sport or interests.

As far as the thread topic, I would rate myself as a moderate when it comes to fireams. I am a fiscal conservative, but social moderate. I think George W Bush and I could be friends. Obama would be a great "friend" for debate on issues.

[ZeSpectre]

I'm that guy that folks secretly approach all shy about "coming out of the closet" and admitting that they are interested in guns and shooting.

I'm the guy that has to encourage them and convince them that there's nothing shameful about enjoying the shooting sports and especially about deciding to take a hand in your own personal protection.

Most of the time I enjoy helping those who come to me wanting help.

I just find it highly irritating how many people skulk around and want to discuss the matter "discreetly" as though we were planning an illicit rendezvous or a drug handoff

[FyredUp]

ZeSpectre,

We agree. I am often asked for advice and i am willing to share what little I know. Making sure to say things like researching the gun you want to buy, trying it out, and really deciding what you want it for are important to a successful gun purchase.

I am not shy at all about being a gun guy and regularly discuss guns with people I work with. They can't help but know I am a gun guy since I am usually reading a gun magazine at break time!! Heck, I get asked all the time "Hey what kind of gun is that they are using in this tv show?"

Gun ownership and the shooting sports are legal and have every bit as much right to be the topic of friendly discussion as do football or any other hobby.

[doh_312]

Mr. Erik, if you re-read my post you'll notice I specifically mentioned that it was from a movie and that I was well aware movies are not real life. I continued on to state that finding an weapon is not exactly difficult. If it were the average criminal wouldn't find one. And yet....

You seemed to agree that guns can be found through less than legit means if one is turned down through the legal process. If New York's already strict gun laws haven't made a difference, what makes you thing doing it on a National level would. Frankly I love the fact I don't need a permit or a license saying I can own and open carry my firearms. I don't believe a permit should be necessary for CC but I have that permit anyway. And it wasn't difficult to get as I think is fair. Put some restriction Nation wide about some gun registration and license or permit to own, and I think many people, at least here in Colorado, would not comply. Then what? Confiscation? Come to me with confiscation and it's going to get ugly.

[BobH]

I'm a rare moderate on the forums. I support almost everyone's right to own a firearm, but believe it should be controlled. That's why I said almost. I believe in gun control. Anyone who says they aren't in favor of gun control is crazy. It's a question of where we draw the line. Now I'm going to hear it.
EricReynolds is offline Report Post

I don't know about 'rare' and I don't know about 'moderate'. Those are self-chosen descriptors. It's clear that you think you are both, but I doubt that 'rare' is appropriate and I would challenge 'moderate' in the sense that you apply it to gun 'control'. Maybe you think your position is moderate, but it is unrealistic and therefore unsustainable.

In a later post, you posit that there are people who shouldn't be allowed to have guns and you cite convicted felons and the insane. I counter that there is no gun control law that can prevent them from acquiring them and using them. It only makes it illegal for them to do so. Legality is usually an issue addressed only after an act is committed and it must be determined by either a judge or a judge and a jury. Given that the law and the findings by the judge/jury are acts of men, they can be - and frequently are - incorrect and motivated by other than altruism and the finding of fact.

I agree that I don't want convicted felons or idiots using firearms. I just don't think that passing gun control laws has any effect on keeping felons and the insane from getting and using firearms. It's like passing a law to keep the sun from rising in the East or to cancel gravity. Instead of gun control laws, let's have more effective judges and juries. (Yeah! I know! It's the same as trying to make the sun rise in the West, but I'm trying to be more optimistic to balance my altruism!)

So, being realistic about it; I say make gun ownership a right of citizenship. Ain't a citizen? We'll deport you if we find you with one. Do it again and get caught, we'll put you at hard labor for about 15 years (and if I wrote and enforced the law, I'd also castrate you, just as a deterrent to the next one who thinks about doing it - but SCOTUS would likely call that cruel and unusual while I call it practical).

Which leads me to the answer to the original question: "What kind of gun owner are you?" One who practices his marksmanships and takes care of his weapons because the government can't protect you when you need it most. One who believes that self-defense and self-reliance are rights that are 'inalienable'. One who knows that governments are of men who are fallible and most often self-serving, above all other motivations. One who loves his country but doesn't trust the politicians who make up its government.

I think my position is 'moderate' though some - perhaps many - will say otherwise. But better than being 'moderate', I think my position is realistic. We form governments to better protect ourselves from many things - including government - but we are foolish to rely on them as our sole protector and even more foolish if we give up self-reliance and self-defense.

[Don P]

As in my signature line I have been told I am a GUN SLUT. Never have enough