M1A -----different model accuracy advice

bugaiho · March 1, 2008, 06:10 PM

Hello,,,
I want to buy my daughters the M1A...

can anyone tell me that they wished they had one model over another? I think I want to rule out the socom...I believe my girls will compete with these, eventually.

I am looking for comparison with the 22" barrel Loaded...or National Match.

Also,,,I was looking at an auction...the guy says it is model MA9222CA. it has a few nat. match parts... would it make a huge difference to go "Nat match"

I cant justify the super national match!

30Cal · March 1, 2008, 06:26 PM

The NM and Supermatch rifles have the custom work necessary to make them consistently accurate performers--bedding, gas system work, etc.

You might get lucky and find a Loaded or Standard that happens to fit nicely into it's one-size-fits-all stock, but I certainly wouldn't expect one to shoot better than 2.5MoA (1.5MoA for the Loaded) with match grade ammo.

The medium weight match barrel (Loaded and NM) adds 1lb to the rifle. The heavyweight barrel adds 2lbs and makes it very heavy in the front (I think it needs 2lbs of lead added to the buttstock to make it balance right).

The shorter M1A's aren't legal for NRA or CMP competition under Service Rifle rules. You can shoot one in the Match Rifle category though. If your girls are going to shoot highpower, then you ought to do them a favor and get a match grade AR15. They require less maintenance, have zero recoil, are much easier to shoot, are a tad bit more accurate, and are infinitely cheaper to feed. Pretty much nobody shoots the M1a in highpower anymore.

Tim R · March 1, 2008, 06:52 PM

I'll second what 30 Cal said.

You could buy almost 2 top shelf AR's for the price of 1 M-1A.

I will say this however. If a person can master a M-1A where it won't push you out of position, and then go to a AR the others on the line had better be ready for some new match winners. There are some female shooters out there who back in the day didn't let the heavy recoil of a M-1A slow them down. I have been soundly beaten by some of the best female shooters, Nancy and Noma come to mind.

bugaiho · March 1, 2008, 10:13 PM

Excellent tips.
I have been out of competition for so long..30 years,,,

glad i posted the question.

I feel bad that I made my wife use my Garand for her to qualify for her DCM rifle years ago,,,but she shot that like it was a 22.

My oldest daughter loves shooting the Garand. So I didnt think the M1a would be a problem..

I will start looking at the ARs...I may have to post another question,,,i know Zero about them.

10-96 · March 2, 2008, 01:18 AM

Like others have said- the AR has become the king of the heap at HP Competitions- fewer and fewer of anything else. There are dedicated Springfield, John C. Garand, and Mil Surp matches that can be found- but the AR is come to it's prominence. Me? I'm leaning real hard at giving up the AR and focusing on the 1903-A3 because the regular Service Class is getting so full of AR's. No, it's not that I feel like I've mastered the AR (far from it!) I just feel more of a draw to the vintage stuff.

Tim R · March 2, 2008, 08:38 AM

I have fond memories of the M-14. Back when I was shooting the riflemans rifle, the Army and Marines were just starting out with the M-16 for High Power. They would kill us on the short line but we made up some distance on the long line. Then someone figured out the right twist and made heavy bullets. The rest is history. Don't get me wrong the M-14 was a very good rifle and it could shoot some very good scores. I shot a McMillan stocked M-14 at Perry in 1990 and at times I swore the bullets were guided.

Until about 3 years ago, I had a firm belief only real men shot 308's. I went to a State Championship match and had loaded up some 175's SMK's for my match 308 M-1 to use on the long line. I ended up shooting 42 of those things in one day and I hurt. 88 shot match in the morning, team match in the after noon. The next day my aching shoulder and I saw a AR shooter shooting off hand without the rifle butt in his shoulder. The rifle butt was on top of his shoulder and he had his nose firmly planted on the charge handle. I also noticed he wasn't getting kicked, and his nose wasn't bloody. HMMM

I looked at AR's. Never in my wildest dreams would I have ever thought I would move to the dark side but there I was. I already had a issued patrol rifle which is a AR carbine but I had never even thought of the platform going with High Power. This was in spite of me getting my rear kicked at every match by some hippy dude with his AR. I won't even talk about the Juniors.

So I started doing some research. Some may agree, others may not, but I'm still going to throw it out to you.

The AR is really a simple design. Most any part which fails can be replaced by the shooter. I'm talking extractor, firing pin, gas rings and the bolt mostly. I had a trigger stop on me one time. I just happened to have a spare trigger assy with me which was replaced between relays. I have one lower for 2 service rifle uppers but this is another story.

The best out of the box NM AR is the RRA NM. It comes with their wonderful 2 stage trigger. The RRA 2 stage is about the best trigger for the money out there. The RRA NM also has a Wilson match barrel. I have 2 shooting buddies that bought a RRA NM about 3 years ago. One made master in 2 seasons the other is about ready to become a master.

There are 2 top shelf of the top shelf service rifle builders. White Oak and Compass Lake. If you have a upper from one of these guys and you are not knocking the X ring out of the target, it isn't the rifle. I went with White Oak Precision. http://www.whiteoakprecision.com
I liked the options John has with his pinned rear sights. I ordered a Service Rifle upper from him with the idea I was going to shoot 90 gr match bullets at a 1000. So I ordered a Pac Nor barrel with a 6 1/2 to 1 twist. I've never shot it at a 1000, but I will tell you it shoots 77 and 80 gr SMK's very well. I brought money home the 2nd time I shot it in a match. I was counting the number of matches I had shot and figured if I continued at the pace I was shooting at I would be needing a new barrel for Perry last year. So I ordered another upper, this time a Kreiger with a 7 to 1 twist. This barrel makes zero copper! But man does it shoot! It likes the 77 and 80 gr SMK's too. Both uppers have 1/4 X 1/4 NM sights. Some say with the 1/4 Moa sights there is too many clicks to count to get to your 600 yard dope. Learn how to count.

My lower is a RRA NM which came with the RRA 2 stage trigger. I had ordered a RRA trigger tuned by WOP so I now had a spare which I sent to John to tune......see above and yes John wants the bad one back for a free tuned up.

Mags: I bought some Colt 20 round mags and they have been perfecto so far.

Good luck.

Peter M. Eick · March 2, 2008, 08:51 AM

I shoot M1A's a fair amount, but not competitively in over 2 decades. I got out because of money and by the time I got back in, I was so out of date (20 years) that I did not realize the M1a's time had passed for competition.

If you want to compete in High Power or Service Rifle, go with the AR platform and be competitive.

If you want to shoot for the fun of it, then go the M1A.

I used to collect M1A's but I sold off all by the NM and the SM. The loadeds and the conventionals were just not as accurate as the even the NM so whats the point?

So what can you do with an NM or SM?

Here is the National from 100 yrds off the bench, 50 shots.

Here is the Super from 100 yrds off the bench, 50 shots per target.

If you are buying shooters, they are great guns, but today I have pangs of regret that I did not get an AR and get back into competition.

SR420 · March 2, 2008, 08:57 AM

Quote:

bugaiho
I want to buy my daughters the M1A ...I believe my girls will compete with these, eventually.

Let me know if competition shooting with the M14 type rifle is not in their future, this will open the door to many additional options.

bugaiho · March 2, 2008, 09:35 AM

I am not too old that I cant be convinced.

I think you guys just convinced me...

I just had admired the M14 for years when I was in the NAVY. Thought it would be the creme de la creme. but you guys have the recent experience...and I know the AR has come a long way.

Alright now...looking for some AR advice,,,and rough estimate prices.

thanks all. Mike

March 1, 2008, 06:10 PM	#1
bugaiho Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: connecticut Posts: 41	M1A -----different model accuracy advice Hello,,, I want to buy my daughters the M1A... can anyone tell me that they wished they had one model over another? I think I want to rule out the socom...I believe my girls will compete with these, eventually. I am looking for comparison with the 22" barrel Loaded...or National Match. Also,,,I was looking at an auction...the guy says it is model MA9222CA. it has a few nat. match parts... would it make a huge difference to go "Nat match" I cant justify the super national match!

March 1, 2008, 06:52 PM	#3
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	I'll second what 30 Cal said. You could buy almost 2 top shelf AR's for the price of 1 M-1A. I will say this however. If a person can master a M-1A where it won't push you out of position, and then go to a AR the others on the line had better be ready for some new match winners. There are some female shooters out there who back in the day didn't let the heavy recoil of a M-1A slow them down. I have been soundly beaten by some of the best female shooters, Nancy and Noma come to mind. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

March 2, 2008, 01:18 AM	#5
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,160	Like others have said- the AR has become the king of the heap at HP Competitions- fewer and fewer of anything else. There are dedicated Springfield, John C. Garand, and Mil Surp matches that can be found- but the AR is come to it's prominence. Me? I'm leaning real hard at giving up the AR and focusing on the 1903-A3 because the regular Service Class is getting so full of AR's. No, it's not that I feel like I've mastered the AR (far from it!) I just feel more of a draw to the vintage stuff. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

March 2, 2008, 08:38 AM	#6
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	I have fond memories of the M-14. Back when I was shooting the riflemans rifle, the Army and Marines were just starting out with the M-16 for High Power. They would kill us on the short line but we made up some distance on the long line. Then someone figured out the right twist and made heavy bullets. The rest is history. Don't get me wrong the M-14 was a very good rifle and it could shoot some very good scores. I shot a McMillan stocked M-14 at Perry in 1990 and at times I swore the bullets were guided. Until about 3 years ago, I had a firm belief only real men shot 308's. I went to a State Championship match and had loaded up some 175's SMK's for my match 308 M-1 to use on the long line. I ended up shooting 42 of those things in one day and I hurt. 88 shot match in the morning, team match in the after noon. The next day my aching shoulder and I saw a AR shooter shooting off hand without the rifle butt in his shoulder. The rifle butt was on top of his shoulder and he had his nose firmly planted on the charge handle. I also noticed he wasn't getting kicked, and his nose wasn't bloody. HMMM I looked at AR's. Never in my wildest dreams would I have ever thought I would move to the dark side but there I was. I already had a issued patrol rifle which is a AR carbine but I had never even thought of the platform going with High Power. This was in spite of me getting my rear kicked at every match by some hippy dude with his AR. I won't even talk about the Juniors. So I started doing some research. Some may agree, others may not, but I'm still going to throw it out to you. The AR is really a simple design. Most any part which fails can be replaced by the shooter. I'm talking extractor, firing pin, gas rings and the bolt mostly. I had a trigger stop on me one time. I just happened to have a spare trigger assy with me which was replaced between relays. I have one lower for 2 service rifle uppers but this is another story. The best out of the box NM AR is the RRA NM. It comes with their wonderful 2 stage trigger. The RRA 2 stage is about the best trigger for the money out there. The RRA NM also has a Wilson match barrel. I have 2 shooting buddies that bought a RRA NM about 3 years ago. One made master in 2 seasons the other is about ready to become a master. There are 2 top shelf of the top shelf service rifle builders. White Oak and Compass Lake. If you have a upper from one of these guys and you are not knocking the X ring out of the target, it isn't the rifle. I went with White Oak Precision. http://www.whiteoakprecision.com I liked the options John has with his pinned rear sights. I ordered a Service Rifle upper from him with the idea I was going to shoot 90 gr match bullets at a 1000. So I ordered a Pac Nor barrel with a 6 1/2 to 1 twist. I've never shot it at a 1000, but I will tell you it shoots 77 and 80 gr SMK's very well. I brought money home the 2nd time I shot it in a match. I was counting the number of matches I had shot and figured if I continued at the pace I was shooting at I would be needing a new barrel for Perry last year. So I ordered another upper, this time a Kreiger with a 7 to 1 twist. This barrel makes zero copper! But man does it shoot! It likes the 77 and 80 gr SMK's too. Both uppers have 1/4 X 1/4 NM sights. Some say with the 1/4 Moa sights there is too many clicks to count to get to your 600 yard dope. Learn how to count. My lower is a RRA NM which came with the RRA 2 stage trigger. I had ordered a RRA trigger tuned by WOP so I now had a spare which I sent to John to tune......see above and yes John wants the bad one back for a free tuned up. Mags: I bought some Colt 20 round mags and they have been perfecto so far. Good luck. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

March 2, 2008, 08:51 AM	#7
Peter M. Eick Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 1999 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,991	I shoot M1A's a fair amount, but not competitively in over 2 decades. I got out because of money and by the time I got back in, I was so out of date (20 years) that I did not realize the M1a's time had passed for competition. If you want to compete in High Power or Service Rifle, go with the AR platform and be competitive. If you want to shoot for the fun of it, then go the M1A. I used to collect M1A's but I sold off all by the NM and the SM. The loadeds and the conventionals were just not as accurate as the even the NM so whats the point? So what can you do with an NM or SM? Here is the National from 100 yrds off the bench, 50 shots. Here is the Super from 100 yrds off the bench, 50 shots per target. If you are buying shooters, they are great guns, but today I have pangs of regret that I did not get an AR and get back into competition. __________________ 10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!

March 1, 2008, 06:26 PM	#2
30Cal Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2002 Posts: 1,264	The NM and Supermatch rifles have the custom work necessary to make them consistently accurate performers--bedding, gas system work, etc. You might get lucky and find a Loaded or Standard that happens to fit nicely into it's one-size-fits-all stock, but I certainly wouldn't expect one to shoot better than 2.5MoA (1.5MoA for the Loaded) with match grade ammo. The medium weight match barrel (Loaded and NM) adds 1lb to the rifle. The heavyweight barrel adds 2lbs and makes it very heavy in the front (I think it needs 2lbs of lead added to the buttstock to make it balance right). The shorter M1A's aren't legal for NRA or CMP competition under Service Rifle rules. You can shoot one in the Match Rifle category though. If your girls are going to shoot highpower, then you ought to do them a favor and get a match grade AR15. They require less maintenance, have zero recoil, are much easier to shoot, are a tad bit more accurate, and are infinitely cheaper to feed. Pretty much nobody shoots the M1a in highpower anymore.

March 1, 2008, 10:13 PM	#4
bugaiho Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: connecticut Posts: 41	Excellent tips. I have been out of competition for so long..30 years,,, glad i posted the question. I feel bad that I made my wife use my Garand for her to qualify for her DCM rifle years ago,,,but she shot that like it was a 22. My oldest daughter loves shooting the Garand. So I didnt think the M1a would be a problem.. I will start looking at the ARs...I may have to post another question,,,i know Zero about them.

March 2, 2008, 09:35 AM	#9
bugaiho Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: connecticut Posts: 41	I am not too old that I cant be convinced. I think you guys just convinced me... I just had admired the M14 for years when I was in the NAVY. Thought it would be the creme de la creme. but you guys have the recent experience...and I know the AR has come a long way. Alright now...looking for some AR advice,,,and rough estimate prices. thanks all. Mike