Best Alternative to Carrying a Firearm

[EastSideRich]

My wife is absolutely opposed to carrying a firearm. She has made it clear after many conversations she is not going to even consider it.
She works evenings at a hospital in downtown Minneapolis in an area nicknamed Somali Village. She parks in an indoor ramp, but I still don't like the thought of her going to her car at 11:30 by herself unarmed. She also occasionally helps teach an evening class in a building not terribly far from North Minneapolis which is really not a nice part of town.
I would feel a lot more comfortable if she would carry some kind of self defense tool (even better if it was something that spit 90 grain pieces of lead).

Anyway, I was hoping to see if anyone has some good suggestions for options.
I'm thinking pepper foam might be the most effective and fool proof.
The only other thing I can come up with is a Taser, but I don't like the fact you get one shot and if something goes wrong she'd be in big trouble.

On that note, does anyone know of a maker of a foam that is more than 10% OC? The only foam I can find is Mace (10%). I'd like to find some thing that would pack a little more of a punch.

Also, does anyone have experience with this stuff? I don't think I've ever seen the foam used on a real person. I know I've seen plain old pepper spray used where it has not stopped the individual in their tracks.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

[DonR101395]

Best Alternative to Carrying a Firearm

Carrying a cop, but they are kinda bulky

Get her her the pepper spray and some training. It's better than nothing.
I did find it interesting that you are worried about her getting in trouble for shooting someone with a taser, but are all for her carrying a gun.

[EastSideRich]

What I meant about the taser is if for some reason it doesn't work (miss, barbs hit too close or get stuck in aggressors clothing, etc.) she'll be S.O.L.
I didn't mean she'll legal be in trouble for using it.

[DonR101395]

Gotcha, just wanted to clarify it.

[Garage Dog]

My wife feels the same way. I have been considering the Kimber JPX. I haven't seen one yet but would be interested to here what others thought.

http://www.life-act.com/

[David Armstrong]

Forget the foam, get a good spray. Personally, I recommend Fox.

[Hard Ball]

Pepper spray is bbetter than notging.

[kraigwy]

My wife's problem is whether to carry her judge or PPK.

Have your wife watch this short clip, from a Non NRA- Non Hunting lady.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...537893819675&p

[EastSideRich]

I have been considering the Kimber JPX

I've also looked at the Kimber products. What concerns me about these is similar to the concerns about the Taser. You get two bursts, which if they hit their mark would certainly be devastating; but with an attacker who is not going to be holding still, if those bursts miss she could be in a world of trouble. The jet out of the Kimber doesn't leave a lot of room for error. In a panic situation, I can imaging someone shooting both charges off before they knew what happened. Also, the pistol like design could possible cause one to instinctively aim center of mass instead of towards the face.
I like the foam sprays because they would allow one to adjust their aim while spraying and would allow for multiple (5+) bursts.
The foam also appeals to me because of how it sticks to the target and is highly visible.
Here are short videos of both in action. In the Kimber one, the guy takes plenty of time to aim at a stationary target (the second shot from only 6 ft away) and neither are really direct hits. The first shot almost completely misses.
Kimber
Foam

Forget the foam, get a good spray. Personally, I recommend Fox.

I like the foams due to the inability of the spray to drift back towards her, and a more dense easily visible stream (all of it lands in a smaller area).
What advantage would a liquid spray have over a foam?

[tlm225]

Fox pepper spray seems to have a good reputation. Don't get the foam, all it affects is eyesight assuming a good hit. For your purposes a fog style is much better and will affect vision and respiration.

Your concerns with the taser are valid. It's only good for one aggressor and if she misses, she won't get a second chance.

I feel your pain about your wifes attitude about the gun. My anti-gun wife is fearful of being home alone while I work the night shift. Even with several suitable handguns in the home, she limits herself to having outside lights on and hoping for the best.

[Dwight55]

I guess if I had to carry some kind of spray, . . . I'd go for the bear spray they market out West and in Alaska.

If it would dissuade a 750# griz from bothering you, . . . it would probably be effective on some 325# knuckle dragger. I would check though, . . . there may be some dingbat Brady law that makes it illegal to use on humans :barf:

May God bless,
Dwight

[Deaf Smith]

daryl,

Best alternative is this:

1) Good health insurance. Add good life insurance to.
2) Pre-paid best parking space (read most secure) in town where ever she works or teaches.
3) Excellent locks on her car doors.
4) Good class on self defense. Especially on awareness and indicators of an attack coming. And ability to reconize bad situations and get out before it gets worse.
5) Maybe pepper spray. But I see some many get that stuff, never practice, never even see how far the stuff reaches. And usually they think that is a cure all and won't keep their eyes open. If you have to use pepper spray, things have gone very badly and may get alot worse.

[Bill DeShivs]

I prefer Freeze +P pepper spray. The local sherrif's department issues it. It is a stream type. Spray face first, then the crotch. Once the stuff reaches the "vitals", you can't think about much else. Easy description for the cops- screaming, crying man with no pants on!
A really bright, defensive style flashlight is good, too. I don't recommend the DeLight because of it's focusing feature. A fixed-focus, extremely bright light like a Surefire or one of the cheaper alternatives is good.

[Gunsmom]

Check into the Refuse to be a Victim course- it's through NRA but if I'm not mistaken it's not based on a woman being armed.

Does she have the option of calling for an escort to her vehicle? I've worked in similar situations and had that option. Particularly if she's leaving a little later than others on her shift, she needs to get an escort.

She needs to not leave her gut instincts behind at work. Most nurses develop very good gut instincts. When she steps outside, into the parking lot or parking deck, wherever, if her gut tells her something is wrong, she needs to immediately act on that. Turn around and go back, drop her stuff and run, whatever, but do not ignore what her gut is telling her.

Pepper spray or foam may be better than nothing but it does not always work. I'm not talking about equipment failure or operator error; I'm talking about guys who can get a good spraying and keep on coming. The prison system here in Texas uses pepper spray to subdue offenders in some necessary situations. Some offenders seem to have or develop an "immunity" to the spray; I've been reliably told of the occasional one who will literally laugh it off. I would be particulary concerned about its efficacy in the case of someone having an acute psychotic episode, very hyped up on drugs, or even in a fit of rage.

I don't know that I'd trust the foam any more than I would the spray.

I'd look into the Refuse To Be A Victim, then maybe go on from there.

[wtfd661]

I used the First Defense MK4 10% pepper (OC) spray in a large jail that I used to work in and only saw it fail once (and that was traced back to a bad batch that we had received). Personally used it on inmates high on narcotics, alcohol, mentally disturbed, and just plan d**mbas*es including those who had been in and out of custody longer than I had been alive, I highly recommend it as an alternative for someone who refuses to consider a firearm. But like a firearm the person who is going to carry it must be trained in the use of it. They have to learn how the spray will react in the environment that they are using it in ie, high wind (make sure it is at their back), confined space (no ventilation) and how the person is going to react (my advice spray and run). I have no experience with the foam but recommend the stream over the cone spray (stream is less likely to be affected by the wind and is easy to adjust stream for effectiveness). Remember also they have I believe a 4 yr shelf life from the date and manufacture so you will have to periodically check and make sure it hasn't expired. Good Luck.

[Nnobby45]

I remember some people from some of my firearms training classes who were always opposed to carrying firearms---- until "the incident".

When a firearm is needed, there isn't a replacement for it that I'm aware. Pepper spray that could be employed before that point might work. Even armed people carry it.

[hillbillyshooter]

A CCW trainer in Morgantown recommends carrying pepper spray even if you carry a firearm because many situations that would require a good pull could also be defused wih a spray of OC.

[MrNiceGuy]

a WASP knife

http://www.waspknife.com/index.php

[bigghoss]

the best alternative is to sit at home and keep it on the end table

get her a gun and tell her it's a "lead-based personal defense spray"

[FireForged]

With pepper spray you need a good quality "high pressure" can. This junk you see at the supermarket is worthless.

Still, a person who uses or attmepts to use something in the name of defense must first have the mental tuffness to defend themselves.

half hearted attempts at defense dont normally go over well.

[David Armstrong]

What advantage would a liquid spray have over a foam?

Better coverage, less precision needed. Generally greater range also.

[M1911]

There are three main types of sprays:

- stream
- fog
- foam

Stream sprays shoot a stream of liquid. The liquid is the carrier (usually alcohol based) for the agent. Stream has the longest range and is less affected by wind. Downside is that the liquid encapsulates the agent -- until the agent reaches the skin, the perp doesn't feel it. It also requires precise aiming.

Foam is similar to stream, but the agent foams on contact. Downside is that the perp can more easily scoop the foam off his face and throw it back at you. Like stream, foam requires precise aiming.

Fog sprays shoot a wide, dispersed fog. They require much less precision in aiming -- just point it in the perp's general direction -- and have less liquid encapsulating the agent. Downside is less range and less effective on a windy day.

[pax]

There are lots of (less effective but still useful) alternatives to carrying a gun.

There are NO substitutes for lack of a defensive mindset.

The less determined the mindset, the more ineffective the already less-effective alternatives become.

Fix the mindset, and the gear problem solves itself.

The best gear in the world won't solve the mindset problem.

There is absolutely nothing you can do to make another free adult human being solve their own mindset problem. There are a few things you can do that might encourage or discourage a minset change, but nothing you can do will make that change happen.

All that said, here's an article on pepper spray from my website: www.corneredcat.com/Gear/pepperspray.aspx I've been meaning to do a similar write up for the TASER C2, but haven't gotten around to it yet. There's a thread here on TFL that discusses the C2 and several posts in it are thought provoking, IMO.

Good luck.

pax

[Gunsmom]

I'd recommend Pax's entire website to any woman, willing to carry or not.

[M1911]

Good article, pax.