Light 45 ACP loads....how low is too low

[eganx]

So I'v been loading 5gr of HP-38 under a 200gr cast RN for a little while with no problems. I thought I'd try 4.5gr and see how that worked, so I loaded 50 rounds a shot them with no problems. talking with my father in law, he mentioned the possibility of pressure spikes and improper burn. pretty much that it was a bad idea to go below the minimum load. now, 4.5gr is the min load for a 230gr bullet in my manual and 5.2 is the min for a 185 gr(no info for 200gr). I don't really think I'll have a problem shooting this load. but being new to the reloading world, I wanted to get some knowledge and opinions on loads below minimum. I understand what can happen if a load is too hot, but if its too light what can happen(aside from having a bullet lodged in the barrel, and the gun not cycling if semi-auto) thanks - Egan

[millerwb]

Bullseye shooters are known for shooting light loads. In the 45, when you go below the "minimum" load, you have to end up changing the recoil spring. One of the 45s that I inherited was a Bullseye gun. It had an 11# spring in it so that it would cycle properly. As to a proper load, I have no idea.

[PCJim]

Eganx, I would have to agree with your father-in-law. I just posted this in another thread inquiring about loads below minimum. The starting charges are posted for a reason - some powders have been known to have violent, unpredictable, non-linear pressure curves at charges below those established as minimum.

[rwilson452]

I would point out that light loads in a bottle necked cartridge have been know to have a disastrous effect I have loaded 38 spl so light you wouldn't believe. light loads in a straight walled pistol case like the.45ACP are not an issue unless it is so light the bullet doesn't leave the barrel. When I was just getting started in reloading I loaded a 45 so light that when I fired it, it stuck in a IPSC target 5 yards away. I insisted they score it as a hit.

[Sirgunsalot]

I shoot reduced loads most of the time in my 1911 without any problems and I use all standard weight springs in my Springfield loaded. My best load I have found so far is 4.0 gr. of Bullseye with a 200 gr. lead swc (saeco #68). I also have used 3.6 gr. of Bullseye with a 230 gr. lead round nose without any problems.
I've tried going lower (down to 3.2 gr. of Bullseye ) with the 230 gr. lead round nose but I started having feed problems and unburnt powder residue.
I hope this helps...

[Jim Watson]

Lighter than "minimum" loads of HP38 in .45 ACP
= "pressure spikes"?
No.

= "improper burn"?
What is that?

= erratic velocity?
Yes.

Lyman goes down to 3.9-4.0 grains W231 (same as HP38) with some of their 185-200 grain cast bullets. Velocities in the 600s, pressures in the 7000-8000 CUP range. Lightest in print.

I can say that when you get down there you will be running high to very high velocity variations. The last time I shot 4.0 gr HP38 and a 200 gr SWC the spread was 212 fps! At 4.2 gr the spread was "only" 70 fps.

If you want loads lighter than about 85% of the maximum you would get more consistency with, believe it or not, good old fashioned dirty Bullseye. Common bullseye target loads with Bullseye powder used to be in the 3.3 to 3.8 grain range; velocity in the 650-750 fps range.

[kraigwy]

OK since we are talking about 45 ACPs lets stick to 45 ACP because all guns/cart. are differant.

Years ago, the American Rifleman posted a load for the 230 grn LRN (lead round nose) which was well below the min load in most reloading manuls.

That being 3.8 grns of bullseye. This is a mild accurate load. Extremely accurate assuming you have quality cast bullets.

I've been shooting this load for about 30 years in bullseye and practice, plus a few Multi Gun matches.

This, though well below min. is safe. You go any lower then yes you'll have problems with accuracy at 50 yards but thats it.

During the 80s when there was a shortage of 45 ammo Army Wide, we, my AKNG Pistol team loaded and fired thousands upon thousands of this load will no ill effects.

[darkgael]

I shoot 3.8 grs of Bullseye and a 200 gr. LSWC during the indoor gallery match season. Many thousands as the years go by. No problems. 12# spring.
Outdoors I step up to 4.0 grains.
Pete

[Sarge]

My standard .45 ACP "pest/small game/novice-in-training" load is 4.0 grains of W231 under a 200 LSWC, loaded to 1.250" OAL. It produces 626 fps from my 5" 1911A1 and a few rounds fired in the woods w/o hearing protection, won't make you any deafer than you already are.

This load function w/o a hiccup, far past the point where you'll get tired of loading magazines. It works pretty well on paper at 25 yards, but drops off pretty quick beyond that distance.

[millerwb]

good old fashioned dirty Bullseye.

Is there anything else that we can use . Actually, all I use is Bullseye in most all my pistol loads. Works great and I don't have to stock a powder store.

[Devon]

In .45 I've gone as low as 4.5 gr. unique under a 155 gr. lead swc. I had to put a 10 lb. recoil spring in the gun so the slide would cycle.

[Don P]

From all the data I have read they state you can go 10% below min. grains without a problem. That is the way the Lee Dipper system is set up and all their literature states its safe.

[cgaengineer]

I have went 10-20% with my .308 for reduced recoil loads for my wife and mine son with no ill effects, but this was a bolt gun.

[Crankylove]

Just curious, instead of loading your .45 down below minimum, why not shoot a 9mm, or .40 smith?

[D. Manley]

Just curious, instead of loading your .45 down below minimum, why not shoot a 9mm, or .40 smith?

FWIW, I load and shoot all of those and "download" them all as well. Most shooting is at an indoor range and softer loads have a lot less "sound & fury", are very accurate and are a lot easier on the gun and the brass. To me, it's just more enjoyable when you shoot a lot. I might add that shooting full .45 full loads is still a lot softer than shooting full bore .40's or at least, seems so to me...

[Devon]

I like to load my .45 low so the brass is easier to find, they fall right in front of my right foot.

[Peakbagr]

I shoot 3.7gr of Bullseye powder under LSWC 185's in my two .45ACP bullseye guns.
Super accurate, light recoil and quick recovery between shots.

My standard load for bullseye shooting in a S&W 52-2 is 2.7gr Bullseye powder under Star LHBWCs in .38 wad gun. Another light shooting and very accurate load.

[Shoney]

The phenomenon of reduced loads of standard powder charges in rifle cartridges is called "Detonation" or more correctly S.E.E. An article in American Rifleman well over 20 years ago, maybe longer, was entitles S.E.E.??? something???? The article made the point that SEE (Secondary Explosive Effect) is more commonly referred to as detonation, but that in reality it was not a detonation, rather it is a unique pattern of burning of the powder.

The phenomenon is theorized to occur in reduce rifle loads that are well below the minimum load. The greater the reduction, the greater the chance of catastrophic problems. Loading a good deal below minimum load has always been promoted as a dangerous and an unwise practice since I started loading 48 years ago.

The article theorized , when a small amount of powder lays flat in the horizontal case, the primer ignition hits the rear portion of the powder igniting it, and then skips over the middle section of powder, igniting the front portion of the powder, and both ends burn rapidly toward the middle. The result is theorized to be an uneven but rapid burning of the powder, causing a very high pressure spike.

Apparently noone has ever been able to produce this effect in a lab. My understanding is that pistol loads are not subject to this phenomenon because of the short case lenght. If there is documentation that SEE is a problem in pistols, could someone please site the source.

[schmeky]

Posted by Jim Watson

Lighter than "minimum" loads of HP38 in .45 ACP
= "pressure spikes"?
No.

= "improper burn"?
What is that?

= erratic velocity?
Yes.

Jim, I should send you money for these words. The erratic velocity statement you made hit me like a ton of bricks. You just helped me out more than you'll ever know.

I've been using the wrong powder for light loads

[Unclenick]

I've seen old articles in the Rifleman in which top shooters of the day listed their loads, and a number were 3.5 grains of Bullseye, and one gal, I seem to recall, shot 3.2 grains, but had a warmer load for 50 yards. They may all have had warmer 50 yard loads, but I no longer recall. I do recall they were almost universally shooting 200 grain H&G 68 style cast bullets, though, not the 185's. Lighter bullets need a little more powder as you have less of Newton's "equal and opposite reaction" for the powder to build burning pressure against. 25 years ago, when I was first learning to build 1911's, I tried a bunch of loads with Star swaged 185 grain SWC's. I had recoil springs as light as 9 lbs to experiment with, but the erratic burning problem Jim mentioned made for messy barrels and widening groups any time I went bellow about 3.7 grains, so I settled on 3.8 grains to have a buffer. I think I was running an 11 pound spring with those Star bullets, but went to 12 pounds with harder cast bullets. The Stars were relegated to 50 foot gallery matches. Hard cast bullets are better.

The other trick I "discovered" (that I subsequently learned had been "discovered" by many before me; I don't think there is much of anything you can do with a 1911 than numerous others have not tried already) was to ignore load manual COL's and seat the bullet out to headspace on the bullet. That increases start pressure a bit, which helps powder burn, but mainly it stops the bullet from starting even slightly sideways, which affects lead bullet accuracy rather dramatically. Jacketed bullets seem to be hard enough to straighten themselves on their way into the throat without deforming, but a lead bullet just swages in at its starting angle and exits spinning with a wobble.

I attached a PDF file of an illustration of how to tell if your seating depth is headspacing on the bullet.

An old target I dug out shows what seriously wimpy loads can do. It is a 25 yard target fired offhand with a 3" Charter Bulldog .44 Special. It is 240 grain Hornady swaged bullets over just 2.9 grains of Bullseye. The group measures 1.75" center to center. (Sorry for the patched holes. I was always stingy with the tagboard.) The light revolver recoils up a little when shooting offhand, even with that light load. I usually cocked the hammer as the gun came back down on the target, so the powder would tend to fall over the primer, which mitigates the erratic burning problem considerably. The self-loaders tend to toss the powder forward when they cycle. Sometimes it stays there, sometimes it bounces around into different parts of the case. Not good for a regular burn. You can see the effect on a chronograph.

[schmeky]

This has been a very interesting and informative thread. As long as I have reloaded (25+ years), there is always more to learn.

Big thanx to Jim Watson and Unclenick for expanding my horizons.