Is America headed for another Revolution?

[Dennis]

People,

Guns! We are trying to keep our guns. Our sexual preferences, beliefs, lines that we draw, etc. are not relative to keeping our guns.

Guns! Think guns!

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited August 06, 1999).]

[Pres in VA]

I think we need to remember that we - and other Americans who hold the same beliefs we do - truly are a "Silent Majority." Somehow, we've allowed a vocal, ardent, minority group of liberals to essentially take over the government (especially the federal agenicies that regulate our day-to-day lives) and the media. (CNN's my fave! Dan Rather's up there, too!)

I'm not sure that I agree with JJR's comment (no flame intended) that elected politicians are OUR politicians. While I certainly respect the process, the results often don't reflect - in my opinion - the beliefs of "ordinary" Americans.

Take our beloved commander-in-chief as an example. In 1996 Clinton received approximately 47.4 million votes. At the time, the population of the U.S. was about 270 million. That means that only about 17.5% of all Americans (of course, everyone can't vote, but...) voted for the fat pantload (Don Imus' endearing expression.)

I tried to find a breakdown of the election returns by race, sex and religion but wasn't successful. But, try this - from that 17.5% figure, subtract people who voted solely on a one-issue basis (race, abortion rights, anti-gun agenda, homosexual rights, animal rights, environmental activism, etc.) Who or what's left? Not much. How many "ordinary" Americans - people who go to work every day, raise their families and who MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS - voted for Clinton? About three?

What can we do? Become politically active. Vote in EVERY election, all the way down to the school board and city council. Offer contributions to politicians who actually have some integrity. ($20 may not sound like a lot - but a liitle here and a little there adds up.) Join the NRA and GOA. Write letters to the editor. Try to change laws that infringe on our rights by organizing referenda like the folks in CA are with the SB 23 initiative. We can become a vocal MAJORITY if we make the effort.

Will this happen? I'm not real confident that it will. Seems as if the vast majority of us have become way too complacent.

Anyone on this forum who hasn't read Unintended Consequences really needs to soon.

[10mmrules]

Like I always said "the souths gonna do it again"........ start it in south carolina, they are the only ones with cahones enough to stand up to the NAACP and tell them to drop dead......

[Josh]

Guttsmoke, You stated-
"Really think about if you revolt there is a good chance that there will be no tomorrows for you. When your dead your dead. No more kisses from the wife, no hugs from your kids,
no birthday parties for the grandchildren. Nothing, nada, zip, your worm food,dead."

If it comes down to a revolt against our Goverment that means that our freedom is in question. If that be the case, and one is not free then you might as well be dead!!!!!

[Rich Lucibella]

Stay on track, people. Read the original post. It's not about homosexuality, bestiality or Devil Worship. If I have a say in the matter, it never will.

DrJon-
Interesting point of view. While I think we're all willing to give ElevenO the benefit of the doubt, I agree that we should each keep the public nature of this Board in mind. Thanks for the reality check.
Rich

[B Shipley]

Didn't Locke, in his "Second Treatise..." affirm that the citizens have a right to replace their government when it fails to serve their best interests?



Didn't Thomas Jefferson use Locke as the foundation for The Declaration?



Then, as a matter of course, and a logical progression and precedent the documents that for the basis for our government give the citizens the inherent right to overthrow their government, by whatever means necessary (as the Second Amendment was actually intended).



I don't think the government serves my interests very well and I could do better with private or privatized services and government corporations.



It does, IMO, serve those who belong to minorities (not well, though), which is not wrong, IMO, but not at the exclusion of or lack of preference for the majority. It also serves those who pay few or no taxes better than those who pay the lion's share of the tax burden, such as with welfare programs that previously had no limits to duration.

[ElevenO]

Hmmmmm? It looks like I've created an interesting little thread here?

I noticed in one of the post that a member was wondering why I started this thread and why I hadn't made many other post about this topic. There is a two-fold answer to that question:

(1) I like to read other peoples post more than I like making my own.

(2) I spend much of my internet time cruising the rec.guns and the talk.politics.guns newsgroups. I don't spend the majority of my time at the firing line and, again, I would rather read the newsgroup post more than make my own.

The reason I brought the subject up, to begin with, was simple. I was just curious. Nothing more and nothing less. I was not (and I am not) advocating a rebellion. However, times have not been good for the pro-gun movement this year. Kids are killing other kids and somebody hollers for more gun control because, you know, "it's for the children". A pyscho goes nuts in Atlanta and (you know the rest of the story) somebody hollers for yet more gun control. We (supposedly) have this "conservative", pro-gun majority in both the House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate, yet more efforts to restrict us law-abiding gun owners from excercising our Second Amendment rights continues to march on without hardly skipping a beat. And then we have the situation in California. Yes, people, I'm referring to SB23 and other bills like it. I know what it means (i.e. registration does, in fact, lead to confiscation) to gun-ownership (across the country) and I don't like it.

I vote. I vote whenever we have an election. Well, I should say "almost" whenever we have an election. I think I may have missed (at the most) 3 elections in the past 9 years. They were all run-off elections as I recall. I have voted in every major election since I became old enough to vote. I am almost 28 years old now.

I've done more than just vote. I have lost count of the times that I have called or emailed my Congressman and Senators. Actually, I shouldn't complain about (some of)the people who represent me. I have one Senator who has been very faithful to the Second Amendment (and to conservatism in general). My other Senator and my Representative are both Democrats. Guess where they stand on the Second Amendment?

I don't want to get off the topic here but let me tell you a story about my congressman (or, rather, the staffers that work in his office). Back when the Brady Bill was up for debate, I called my congressman's office to let him (or his staff) know where this lone constituient stood on the Brady Bill. Obviously, I was against it and I informed the staff employee how I wanted his boss (my rep) to vote when the debate ended and the voting began. The staffer questioned me about the bill and said, something to the effect, that all it required was a waiting period and a background check. I knew that, already, and I didn't need him to tell me something that I already knew. I told him I was a law abiding citizen and that I didn't need the governments permission to exercise a Constitutional right. To make a long story short, this guy tried to make a half-hearted attempt to get me to change my mind. I didn't like that, either.

What I'm trying to say is is that no one can accuse me of not being involved in the political process. Yet, despite this, two of my representatives (1 senator and 1 representative)have all but ignored the Second Amendment (and conservatism, in general). To put in bluntly, I don't see any real progress coming from Washington, DC. I see the Constitution being trampled upon (on a daily basis) and not just in the gun control debate.

I love this country. I love being an American. I love being conservative and being a Christian and being a gun owner. I love the "Star Spangled Banner", Old Glory, Mom and Apple Pie. If America was attacked today, I would like to think that I would be brave enough to lay my heart and my life on the line to defend Her. I don't want to lose my courage and fell from giving my all for my country. If it did come right down to it, I don't think I would run or lay down without a fight. I've tried to "do my duty" and be a good, productive member of society. Yet, it breaks my heart to see the people of this country lose our precious freedoms because of crooks,cowards, idiots and power-hungry politicians (who are supposed to be our leaders).

Maybe I'm paranoid. Maybe things aren't as bad as they seem to be but I don't see how we (as a country) can continue, on the path that we are on (more laws, more this, more that, everybody becomes a criminal, sooner or later, simply because there are so many laws on the books) and still remain free and at peace. Hence, the reason why I started this thread. I don't want a war and I'm not going to advocate starting one but if the government continues to push and push and push then, sooner or later, we are going to have to push back. Otherwise, we will wind up like the frog in the pot full of slowly, boiling water. Dead. If our choices are to either fight (and remain free) or lay down (and become a slave and, eventually, a dead slave) then we must fight to preserve the honor and freedom of this country (and ourselves).

Okay, I'm done and I'm getting off of my soapbox now.

[DrJon]

ElevenO,

Very well said! Couldn't have done better myself. Glad you were not offended by my questioning your motives for posting this topic It's getting so hard to be a gun owner these days with the media and government trying their best to make us out to be scum of the earth.

I too hope it does not come down to taking up arms against one another. The last thing in the world I want is to be put in the position of making the choice to fight, or not, when my family is begging me not to because they do not want to risk losing me.

Jon...


[This message has been edited by DrJon (edited August 07, 1999).]

[Dennis]

ElevenO,
Now, THAT is a soapbox you can bring around me and MY friends at any time.
(Let me know ahead of time and I'll bring the beer! )

[Frank Haertlein]

ElevenO;

I really liked the following words you said.......

"I love this country. I love being an American. I love being conservative and being a Christian and being a gun owner. I love the "Star Spangled Banner", Old Glory, Mom and Apple Pie. If America was attacked today, I would like to think that I would be brave enough to lay my heart and my life on the line to defend Her. "

I have beleived this for all of my life and I too would die for it.

I have a problem though. My problem is that all that is good about America is slowly disappearing. The constant onslaught of new laws that circumscribe virtually evey aspect of your life, the 40 to 50% tax rates, the 75% inheritance taxes, special rights for homosexuals, closing off of roads so I can't hunt certain areas anymore, attempts to take away my guns, environmental laws that shut down your own private land to farming or development and no compensation given to the land owner for the loss of value to his land because of this government, environmental law, the democrats ever increasing taxes campaign (I swear, all they do is sit around and try to dream up new ways to tax you), the closing of BLM lands, charging yearly fees for the right to enter our national forrests, the closing of a multitude of roads by the interior department (the interior department is run by a clinton appointee, Bruce Babbit, who has succeeded in closing off a majority of public roads into our national forrests and BLM lands for the express purpose of keeping you out so you can't hunt or enjoy the outdoors), the constant media onslaught of violence towards our children, the constant media sensationalizing of mass killings that spawns other copycat killings...................... all of this amounts to a situation where my support for this country is fading fast. When they succeed in taking away my gun right then that will be the last straw. That is when I stop supporting the first amndment right of the media, to bombard our youth with violence, the concommitant social costs thus incurred and their efforts to promote sexual deviancy as normal. At that point I will value the second amendment MORE than I do the first. I don't want to make that choice as I value all the constitution. But I will be forced to choose one or the other if the media and our current politicians have their way and ban my right to own firearms. That is when I stop supporting this country, that is when I stop sending my children into the military to fight for freedom because it ain't freedom their fighting for no more....... you see, that is when freedom is dead and a new social, moral corruption has set in. That is not worth fighting for and should be destroyed. We are fast approaching that state.

[Grayfox]

Rich,
Forgive me, but I just got to do this.

Frank,
Don't let the court ruling on homosexuals in Scouting bother you. It is perfectly normal for the plaintiff in these cases to win the first round or two. BSA always, I repeat ALWAYS, wins the appeal.
Personally, I don't agree with the gay lifestyle. However, when TSHTF I don't give a good GD what your preference, color, religion, ethnic background or whatever is, if your willing to stand with me Then welcome! I'll take all the help I can get.
When we start targeting specific groups just for being different, we are no better than the anti-gunners who target us just because we believe in something different from them.
Prejudice cuts both ways.

[Rich Lucibella]

GF-
No forgiveness required. Your committment to Scouting is honorable and worthwhile. Your post is fair and cogent.

Frank-
Your point is well taken and your patriotism unquestioned.. We each have specific issues that rankle us. I only ask that this gay issue be taken to another Board.

No response required, guys. Carry on.
Rich

[John Foley]

There will not be a civil war but it is only a matter of time before there will be a revolution. And it will be a damn bloody one...guns or no guns.

History has shown that without a middle class a nation cannot function. Big business, along with most poiticians, are presenty destroying it. A nation that has only the very wealthy and the very poor is doomed. The government becomes overly repressive, to protect the wealthy and the status quo and then, "thats all she wrote..."

Believe me, I am not a communists, and hope it never happens here. And I am not saying that communism would be the results of a revolution, but it will be the end of our form of government as we know it. It did happen in Russia, and other nations, for the very reasons I have stated here. And the process is already in motion here.

[Spectre]

Mr. Foley,

If I remember correctly, the fighting usually occurs when the middle class starts feeling the pinch. For some reason- perhaps similar to the abused wives who stay with their violent husbands- the poor do not seem to be the ones to start anything of the nature described in this thread. If the middle class is in danger of being taxed out of existence, there will be conflict, indeed. I can see such a day coming if events do not change.


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John Shirley
www.e-budo.com

[TDB4]

I Vote, I Call and Write My Reprasenitive's I Mean I Bug The Hell Out of Them. So They Know Exactly Where I Stand On The Firearms Issue's. But If I Have Shoot To Defend My Liberty, So Be It!

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FREEDOM AIN'T FREE!

[Long Path]

There's a LOT of people I like on this board when we talk guns, that I can't stand when don't.

Let's keep our guns. Let's keep my buddy's boyfriend (a gunowner!) out of the topic of discussion.

As a right-winger, I'm not trying to tear down the government, I just want to return to a few basic rights that I feel should belong to everyone.

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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?

[Rich Lucibella]

This thread begins to tax the load times of the ordinary ISP. Time to close it for that and several other reasons.
Rich