ATF knocked on my door last night! - Page 2

Bart Noir · September 2, 2009, 01:44 PM

One day I stayed home from work, took the truck in for servicing, walked home and got a call. Officer XYZ, part of a multi-agency task force, doing investigation. Led me to believe that I was a witness, which I didn't know anything about. "May we come over?"

I'm supportive of catching criminals and let them in. And that is when I found out what was really going on. Everything they said was true, to get to the part where I opened the door. But it wasn't all the truth.

I had bought, then later sold a Glock. It was seized in Canada (I'm in northern USA) during some sort of drug bust. So they came to talk to me, perhaps a suspected gun-runner

Really, they knew I was from Canada and they called me the one day I was at home, not at work.

So I got a balanced visit. One from ATF and one from DEA. And since it only took me 30 seconds to find the receipt for my selling the Glock to a gunshop, and I could produce my other guns or more receipts if I had sold them, they lost interest in further questioning. To make matters worse, the shop I sold it to went out of business (owner died, in the shop) and all his records were therefore in ATF hands anyway. They could go looking in their own darn files!

They had a list of the guns I bought for years before the visit. So I was a suspect. And I was open, cooperative, had nothing to hide, and that was the end of it. I think. Maybe they are still watching. <where is the smilie (smiley?) with tinfoil hat?>

Bart Noir
But there are guns not on any Gov list......

Wagonman · September 2, 2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Now y'all figure out all the competing rules, but let me give ya a hint...if you havent done anything wrong, your chance of getting in trouble for merely talking to the Po Po is the same as facing multiple assailants......

Truer words were never spoken. which is the crux of my bemusement with regards to views people have about interactions with the Police

Maromero · September 2, 2009, 02:03 PM

[QUOTE] I can see the scenario in my mind. “Excuse me sir, I’m looking for an 80 year old Alzheimer’s patient. Have you seen someone fitting such and such description? “Officer, I ain’t talking to you without my lawyer present”. We later find the patient dead of exposure in a nearby wooded area. Worse yet, if we’re looking for someone who just molested a 6 year old and you make a statement like that. /QUOTE]

Now your making a mockery out of sound advice.

Wildalaska · September 2, 2009, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Now your making a mockery out of sound advice.

Reductio ad absurdum as it may be, it is truly illustrative of how sound advice can be not so sound at times.

WilddointhehappyhinkyAlaska ™

**Bud Helms** · September 2, 2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

The guy took the gun he got from me and posted it on another forum the very next day for almost twice the price that he paid me (which kinda ****** me off. But hey, you live and learn. The gun wasn't really worth what he was asking for it, but I digress).

I'm still befuddled by the attitude reflected in this statement.

It wasn't really worth what he was asking for it (almost twice the price that he paid you), but it ****** you off anyway?

*********************
I agree with CWPinSC. And the factoid that I have done nothing wrong or have nothing to hide has ZILCH to do with it. The fact that I am being questioned BY A FEDERAL ENFORCER has everything to do with it. There will be witnesses with no agenda if I can affect the circumstances. The instant the enforcer tells me he is performing an investigation is the instant I clam up. I will answer all his questions, but I will do it with legal representation, as a witness and advisor, present.

In all fifty states and in federal investigations, the enforcer may intentionally lie to you without legal consequence. You may not even unknowingly pass an untruth his way without the possibility of sanctions or charges. You should go ahead and answer their questions because you 'got nothing to hide? Bull hockey. Let me rephrase: bull crap. That's wrong and you know it. However, each man/woman makes his/her own decisions about their future.

I think it's time for me to butt out of this one because this crap really makes me angry and I realize it is my opinion only.

twhidd · September 2, 2009, 02:41 PM

This is getting fun to watch........

Maromero · September 2, 2009, 02:44 PM

[QUOTE]Reductio ad absurdum as it may be, it is truly illustrative of how sound advice can be not so sound at times./QUOTE]

If you drive it to the point of stupidity yes. I could very well bring up plenty of examples driving your theory of "I've nothing to hide officer, please you may register my car and house, Sir." to the point of stupidity also but that's not what it's all about.

Think of it this way. Those options are two ways of handling potential problems. Look at them as tools. You always try to use the correct tool for the job at hand. For dealing with a cop asking questions while searching for a rapist, use A. For dealing with a cop asking about an elderly woman missing, use A. For a federal agent asking questions about a gun you sold the decision should be a little harder, don't you think? Do I have the sales receipt when I sold it to she local gun shop? Yes. Option A. For the events discussed I would be a little more careful. Exercising your rights to consult a lawyer can't be taken against you.

Kyo · September 2, 2009, 02:46 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA
you must not know about these. the first 2 are the best. the last one is great for refreshers.
you shouldn't have said anything

Mr. James · September 2, 2009, 03:02 PM

I'm leaning with Bud Helms on this one. Of course, you use your best judgement - you pays yer money, you takes yer chances. In the case of the Alzheimer's patient, unless I've just finished replacing the floorboards where I buried this poor fellow's assorted body parts, I'll cooperate freely and will volunteer to search.

In the case of an ATF agent at my door questioning me about firearms transactions, hold the danged phone there. "I'll be happy to cooperate fully at my attorney's office."

ATF investigations are not life-and-death matters in the sense that someone may croak in the next hour or three if you don't answer their queries. And they are under no obligation to play straight with you, whereas you are damned sure obliged to play straight with them.

This "well, unless you have something to hide" nonsense chaps me.

YMMV, as we like to say.

Wildalaska · September 2, 2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Exercising your rights to consult a lawyer can't be taken against you.

Nope, sure cant

WildastoeverythingelseilllettheleguyschimeinAlaska ™

Hkmp5sd · September 2, 2009, 03:14 PM

Quote:

My comment would be "no comment". All I'd have told the ATF agent is, "I respectfully decline to answer any questions until I have been read my rights and have spoken with my lawyer, and my statements are being transcribed or recorded."

The ATF agent already knew you had purchased the gun and from whom. He knew you had disposed of the gun because it was now being sold by someone the agent was interest in. What could you possibly say that would require your statement go through an attorney?

Skans · September 2, 2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Face-toface, I sell only to folks I know well enough to loan a gun, for deer season.

Everything else goes through a FFL.

BTW, I've been LE close to 30 years and no, I don't see firearms in the hands of citizens as an 'object of criminality'.

I think that most folks would be more inclined to cooperate with a local deputy. However, there is a general suspicion of ATF due to some highly questionable activites that they've been involved in. Not to mention, their "tone" seems to be very dependant on the political situation in Washington.

Daugherty16 · September 2, 2009, 03:43 PM

It has been correctly stated that various scenarios demand various degrees of caution in what you say and to whom. A case that clearly doesn't involve you (the Alzheimers wanderer) is vastly different than an ATF guy at your door, asking questions about your guns, especially in the same context as unlawful sales, resales, or ineligible buyers.

I've never sold any of my guns, never wanted to. But before i did, i'd be darn sure i was doing so legally and in full compliance with state law, or i'd have a FFL handle the sale. Don't know if i'd talk to the ATF without a lawyer, or at all. They are experts at finding the one small error that causes your paperwork to be "illegal" and have shut down gun shops for clerical errors. (i know there's always two sides to those stories, but the incidents are real even if the actual nature of the "problem" isn't made clear).

troy_mclure · September 2, 2009, 06:48 PM

i bought my beretta cx4 storm from bullseye shooters in Tacoma WA. right just before the investigation of the dc sniper(bought some gun there).

i got visited on ft. Lewis( i was in the army) by an atf agent. he was questioning me on the procedures that they used when i bought my gun.

i answered his questions, then we bs'ed about guns, the army, and reloading for about 45 mins.

if these guys are going to come after you, they ain't gonna send an agent to "ask around corners" and try to get something on you.

**Shane Tuttle** · September 2, 2009, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hkmp5sd

The ATF agent already knew you had purchased the gun and from whom. He knew you had disposed of the gun because it was now being sold by someone the agent was interest in. What could you possibly say that would require your statement go through an attorney?

I think on paper there isn't an issue. However, if you've ever been questioned, they don't merely ask simple questions such as those you imply. I'm on the fence on what statement(s) I would say. I honestly don't think I'd have an attorney present until the questions become outside of the scope I'm comfortable answering.

Ohio Rusty · September 2, 2009, 08:10 PM

One thing is for sure .... The feds are watching everyone of us on these forums and the guns we sell and buy. If we look the least bit suspicious to them ...they put us.... you and me ..... in the cross hairs of their investigative power. That is scary ....
OR

Wagonman · September 2, 2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

One thing is for sure .... The feds are watching everyone of us on these forums and the guns we sell and buy. If we look the least bit suspicious to them ...they put us.... you and me ..... in the cross hairs of their investigative power. That is scary ....
OR

We aren't that important, unless you are trafficking ilegal weapons or advocating breaking laws the G doesn't really care about the forums. The good ones i.e. HERE do a good job moderating the discussions

Wildalaska · September 2, 2009, 08:19 PM

Quote:

That is scary ....

Why is that different than any other investigative technique?

WildnoletmetellyouwhatsscarydudeitsmeinthemirrorinthemorningAlaska ™

trex1310 · September 2, 2009, 09:22 PM

It's just me, but I don't trust any Federal cop, under any circumstances,
especially the ATF. No conversations without my attorney present.

Just curious, what's a 9 - 5 ATF agent doing out at night?

hogdogs · September 2, 2009, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Just curious, what's a 9 - 5 ATF agent doing out at night?

OVERTIME???

Seriously though, if they are IT type crime investigators, I bet they set their own hours as it pays to be flexible when watching internet activity.
Brent

Wildalaska · September 2, 2009, 10:03 PM

Quote:

In all fifty states and in federal investigations, the enforcer may intentionally lie to you without legal consequence. You may not even unknowingly pass an untruth his way without the possibility of sanctions or charges.

Correct. And I notice no dispute from the LE guys

Anyway, I have been waiting for someone to do it, but noone has raised this issue so I will.

How does one ressolve these conflicting truisms:

1. In all fifty states and in federal investigations, the enforcer may intentionally lie to you without legal consequence. You may not even unknowingly pass an untruth his way without the possibility of sanctions or charges.

2. Lawyering up can be as bad as talking.

3. if you havent done anything wrong, your chance of getting in trouble for merely talking to the Po Po is the same as facing multiple assailants......

4. Feds are waaay to busy to manufacture cases against Joe Schmoo, they want big profile dudes..

5. if they are contacting you, they already know about you.

So whats the answer.

**Shane Tuttle** · September 2, 2009, 10:25 PM

Go to Staples and get yourselft a $50 dictaphone. Place it in your pocket and hit the record button...

zxcvbob · September 2, 2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. James

I'm leaning with Bud Helms on this one. Of course, you use your best judgement - you pays yer money, you takes yer chances. In the case of the Alzheimer's patient, unless I've just finished replacing the floorboards where I buried this poor fellow's assorted body parts, I'll cooperate freely and will volunteer to search.

How did you know it was a guy? I never said anything about the sex of the missing person. Perhaps you should come with me down to the station...

TJH3781 · September 2, 2009, 10:29 PM

Some comments

Federal LEOS receive Law Enforcement Availability Pay (LEAP) & are required to work on average, 50 Hrs/week.

They cannot lie to you if you ask if you are either a suspect or a target.

Depending on Agency Policy, they may have to Mirandize a Target during an interview even if it is not custodial.

Gun Task Forces usually consist of Federal, State, & Local Officers. Just because the Feds will not prosecute does not mean that it will not be handed to a State's Attorney who may prosecute.

Wildalaska · September 2, 2009, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Go to Staples and get yourselft a $50 dictaphone. Place it in your pocket and hit the record button...

Somehow I really dont want to walk around with a dictaphone in my pocket 24/7

I can barely find my wallet and gun

Quote:

They cannot lie to you if you ask if you are either a suspect or a target.

Who told you that?

if it was an LE person, how do you know they arent lying

WildanditisntcalledlyingitscalledinvestigativetechniquesAlaska TM

September 2, 2009, 01:44 PM	#26
Bart Noir Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2000 Location: Puget Sound, USA Posts: 2,215	I was a Suspect One day I stayed home from work, took the truck in for servicing, walked home and got a call. Officer XYZ, part of a multi-agency task force, doing investigation. Led me to believe that I was a witness, which I didn't know anything about. "May we come over?" I'm supportive of catching criminals and let them in. And that is when I found out what was really going on. Everything they said was true, to get to the part where I opened the door. But it wasn't all the truth. I had bought, then later sold a Glock. It was seized in Canada (I'm in northern USA) during some sort of drug bust. So they came to talk to me, perhaps a suspected gun-runner Really, they knew I was from Canada and they called me the one day I was at home, not at work. So I got a balanced visit. One from ATF and one from DEA. And since it only took me 30 seconds to find the receipt for my selling the Glock to a gunshop, and I could produce my other guns or more receipts if I had sold them, they lost interest in further questioning. To make matters worse, the shop I sold it to went out of business (owner died, in the shop) and all his records were therefore in ATF hands anyway. They could go looking in their own darn files! They had a list of the guns I bought for years before the visit. So I was a suspect. And I was open, cooperative, had nothing to hide, and that was the end of it. I think. Maybe they are still watching. <where is the smilie (smiley?) with tinfoil hat?> Bart Noir But there are guns not on any Gov list...... __________________ Be of good cheer and mindful of your gun muzzle!

September 2, 2009, 02:41 PM	#31
twhidd Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 823	This is getting fun to watch........ __________________ Todd NRA Life Member

September 2, 2009, 02:46 PM	#33
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA you must not know about these. the first 2 are the best. the last one is great for refreshers. you shouldn't have said anything __________________ 1. The gun is *always* loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot. 4. Be be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

September 2, 2009, 03:02 PM	#34
Mr. James Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Location: The Old Dominion Posts: 1,521	I'm leaning with Bud Helms on this one. Of course, you use your best judgement - you pays yer money, you takes yer chances. In the case of the Alzheimer's patient, unless I've just finished replacing the floorboards where I buried this poor fellow's assorted body parts, I'll cooperate freely and will volunteer to search. In the case of an ATF agent at my door questioning me about firearms transactions, hold the danged phone there. "I'll be happy to cooperate fully at my attorney's office." ATF investigations are not life-and-death matters in the sense that someone may croak in the next hour or three if you don't answer their queries. And they are under no obligation to play straight with you, whereas you are damned sure obliged to play straight with them. This "well, unless you have something to hide" nonsense chaps me. YMMV, as we like to say. __________________ "...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li "When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat

September 2, 2009, 03:43 PM	#38
Daugherty16 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2008 Location: Live Free or Die state Posts: 259	I'd be VERY reluctant to talk to anybody about my guns... It has been correctly stated that various scenarios demand various degrees of caution in what you say and to whom. A case that clearly doesn't involve you (the Alzheimers wanderer) is vastly different than an ATF guy at your door, asking questions about your guns, especially in the same context as unlawful sales, resales, or ineligible buyers. I've never sold any of my guns, never wanted to. But before i did, i'd be darn sure i was doing so legally and in full compliance with state law, or i'd have a FFL handle the sale. Don't know if i'd talk to the ATF without a lawyer, or at all. They are experts at finding the one small error that causes your paperwork to be "illegal" and have shut down gun shops for clerical errors. (i know there's always two sides to those stories, but the incidents are real even if the actual nature of the "problem" isn't made clear). __________________ "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness... How pathetic." - - Ted Nugent "Cogito, Ergo Armitum Sum" - (I Think, Therefore I Am Armed)- - anon.

September 2, 2009, 02:03 PM	#28
Maromero Junior member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Outside the continental U Posts: 752	[QUOTE] I can see the scenario in my mind. “Excuse me sir, I’m looking for an 80 year old Alzheimer’s patient. Have you seen someone fitting such and such description? “Officer, I ain’t talking to you without my lawyer present”. We later find the patient dead of exposure in a nearby wooded area. Worse yet, if we’re looking for someone who just molested a 6 year old and you make a statement like that. /QUOTE] Now your making a mockery out of sound advice.

September 2, 2009, 02:44 PM	#32
Maromero Junior member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Outside the continental U Posts: 752	[QUOTE]Reductio ad absurdum as it may be, it is truly illustrative of how sound advice can be not so sound at times./QUOTE] If you drive it to the point of stupidity yes. I could very well bring up plenty of examples driving your theory of "I've nothing to hide officer, please you may register my car and house, Sir." to the point of stupidity also but that's not what it's all about. Think of it this way. Those options are two ways of handling potential problems. Look at them as tools. You always try to use the correct tool for the job at hand. For dealing with a cop asking questions while searching for a rapist, use A. For dealing with a cop asking about an elderly woman missing, use A. For a federal agent asking questions about a gun you sold the decision should be a little harder, don't you think? Do I have the sales receipt when I sold it to she local gun shop? Yes. Option A. For the events discussed I would be a little more careful. Exercising your rights to consult a lawyer can't be taken against you.

September 2, 2009, 06:48 PM	#39
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	i bought my beretta cx4 storm from bullseye shooters in Tacoma WA. right just before the investigation of the dc sniper(bought some gun there). i got visited on ft. Lewis( i was in the army) by an atf agent. he was questioning me on the procedures that they used when i bought my gun. i answered his questions, then we bs'ed about guns, the army, and reloading for about 45 mins. if these guys are going to come after you, they ain't gonna send an agent to "ask around corners" and try to get something on you. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

September 2, 2009, 08:10 PM	#41
Ohio Rusty Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Location: Southeast Ohio Posts: 94	One thing is for sure .... The feds are watching everyone of us on these forums and the guns we sell and buy. If we look the least bit suspicious to them ...they put us.... you and me ..... in the cross hairs of their investigative power. That is scary .... OR

September 2, 2009, 09:22 PM	#44
trex1310 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Mobile, AL Posts: 389	Just Me It's just me, but I don't trust any Federal cop, under any circumstances, especially the ATF. No conversations without my attorney present. Just curious, what's a 9 - 5 ATF agent doing out at night?

September 2, 2009, 10:25 PM	#47
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	Go to Staples and get yourselft a $50 dictaphone. Place it in your pocket and hit the record button... __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

September 2, 2009, 10:29 PM	#49
TJH3781 Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2009 Location: Rockford IL Posts: 149	Some comments Federal LEOS receive Law Enforcement Availability Pay (LEAP) & are required to work on average, 50 Hrs/week. They cannot lie to you if you ask if you are either a suspect or a target. Depending on Agency Policy, they may have to Mirandize a Target during an interview even if it is not custodial. Gun Task Forces usually consist of Federal, State, & Local Officers. Just because the Feds will not prosecute does not mean that it will not be handed to a State's Attorney who may prosecute.