ATF knocked on my door last night! - Page 4

TJH3781 · September 5, 2009, 02:56 PM

With regards to recording conversations, the Feds play by different rules that trump all state laws. Telephonic communications require the consent of one (1) party to the conversation & it will be noted at the start of the tape. I believe that the only prohibition on recording non-telephonic conversations is that the recorders cannot be permanently installed in Gov Offices without prior authorization. Otherwise, how could you ever use a Nagra with either an informant or a UC Agent.

Lastly, any investigation is made to answer a question & then let the chips lay where they fall. You all ways have the right to consult an attorney before answering questions; I believe the amendment says may incriminate, not will.
The only exceptions I can think of are statutory requirements to supply records of the sales of firearms. Those usually require that you produce the records at the request of a Police Officer. Federal Agents are not Police Officers; thought maybe Peace Officers depending on the state. If you are a FFL, the rules are different & you may be required to produce on demand.

obxned · September 5, 2009, 06:30 PM

Unless I knew the person very well, any transaction would have to go through an FFL. However, if I had sold the gun without an FFL and done all that was required by law and had the documentation showing that, I would cooperate without hesitation.

They have followed ownership of the firearm from manufacture or importation to your front door. They will not go away until you give them the next link in the chain. This IS their job, and there ARE people acting as dealers without getting an FFL.

While it is highly unlikely any BATFE agent will become my new best friend, by removing the bad apples they are working in our best interests.

B.N.Real · September 5, 2009, 06:33 PM

I agree with Maromeo,you should not talk about this anymore.

You might need to see a lawyer.

Or at least,not talk more about something that makes it hard to find a lawyer if you need one in the future about this.

I would be direct ,honest,remember EXACTLY what I told them and ONLY ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THEY ASK.

A federal agent is not someone who needs to hear everything you did with firearms in the last twenty years.

Just the facts that pertain to what they are investigating.

They actually appreciate people that don't talk off their ears.

ndbbm · September 6, 2009, 08:24 PM

In this situation, if you made a leagal transaction, I don't see the problems with talking with the Feds. I have never heard of any situation where the ATF tried to railroad someone for something they didn't deserve. They try to enforce the laws we have so the libs don't create new ones. And by this I mean all of the illeagal transactions like straw purchases. If this guy has been buying this many guns and reselling them, maybe it could be something more than a tax issue. I think Bartholomew Roberts hit the nail on the head, good post!

Alpha Centauri · September 7, 2009, 04:14 AM

I've sold one handgun on a well known online auction. And it made me nervous as hell.

To cover my bacon, I got a copy of the FFL license that I was to ship to.
I then verified it with BATFE that the FFL dealer was legit and in good legal standing. Then I CALLED the FFL to confirm that they were expecting delivery of said firearm, description "X" to customer "Y". Then I packaged it exactly as per the letter of the law, declared EVERYTHING to Fed Ex, got the appropriate paperwork from FedEX, and followed up the next day with the FFL.

Still, it made me nervous, and that was a textbook, law-abiding transaction.

I'm staying away from online firearms auctions myself.

ava8harrierusmc1 · September 8, 2009, 08:35 PM

I'm glad to see the ATF doing it's job correctly and not kicking in doors of legal gun owners.

SEMPER FI
ava8harrierusmc1

AWDstylez · September 17, 2009, 10:25 PM

How did the ATF find you?

**Bud Helms** · September 17, 2009, 11:06 PM

AWDstylez, there is no one here to brief you on what has transpired to this point. Read the whole thread.

AWDstylez · September 18, 2009, 12:12 AM

I see it's in the second paragraph. I guess I missed it.

WARRIOR I · September 18, 2009, 09:20 AM

While the BATFE appears to be viewed negatively by many gun owners,
I'm not so sure this reputation is wholly deserved. I've heard most of the
horror stories put out by some of the organizations which seek to protect
2nd Amendment rights, but at the same time my few personal contacts
with the agency have been very positive. In fact, the only firearm I've
had stolen and later recovered, a Browning High Power, was returned by
an ATF agent back in 1970.

**Bud Helms** · September 18, 2009, 09:31 AM

There's probably some truth to that.

Their reputation is driven to some degree by their mission. They manage constraints on our ownership and also police violations. It is only natural to resent enforcers.

whippoorwill · September 18, 2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Well apparently the picture he posted of my gun on the forum was a clear enough photo that he was able to trace the serial number back to the dealer that I bought the gun from.

Ahhhh, now we know why some folks on this forum blacken the serial numbers on their firearms photos. Obviously, they don't want uninvited visitors at their homes.

armsmaster270 · September 18, 2009, 12:07 PM

Simple fix it ATF comes to door and if you let him in to ask questions place recorder in front of him recite date and time and then ask may I record this conversationand ask him to say and spell his name. If he says yes tape is legal and admissable to impeach him if he lies. If he says no tell him where your lawyers office is.

Courageous Lion · September 18, 2009, 12:23 PM

First off, there can be no such thing as a "pro" second amendment ATF agent. All the laws he enforces, well most of them are in direct violation of the second amendment. No where at any time did our Founding Fathers find it a crime to buy and sell firearms and yet there are "laws" on the books today to prohibit that very act, that is unless you go to some other man, which is what government really is folks, and ask permission. Go to some man who works for a fiction called the ATF which falls under another fiction called the "federal" government and pay him a ransom fee for the created privilege of buying and selling firearms. ME? I say do away with all the thought crimes on the books and ENFORCE the laws that pertain to protecting our lives, liberty and PROPERTY from all enemies both foreign and domestic. That means dumping all 22,000 firearms laws in the garbage as well as all the jobs that are out their enforcing them on WE the PEOPLE. Worry about crimes that are committed not crimes that we think are going to be committed. I'd say the guy who was or is under investigation for the so called crime of buying and selling firearms isn't damaging ANYONE'S LIFE, LIBERTY or PROPERTY and that is the ONLY LEGITIMATE reason for government to protect us from actions against our LIFE, LIBERTY and Property. When the government begins to pass laws that endanger the very rights it is supposed to be protecting, we have a MAJOR problem. READ the Declaration of Independence again, very slowly...

Montanaman · September 18, 2009, 12:59 PM

I think this fits in this subject very well, but you will need to go and read it yourself, it's not set up to copy and paste...

http://www.spw-duf.info/saynothing.html

I must agree with the Author, but as to the OP's question, I'd say that the fact the ATF agent was at your door tell you they know it was your gun, the fact the buyer had sold it they already know, so by saying yes I sold him the gun is not a confession on your part, they already knew it and had the proof.

But other then saying yes I sold it to him that's all I'd admit, and by saying " Yes I sold it but have nothing more to add" your not failing to coop your just CYA, and yes you best be doing that, they aren't going to send the JBT's around when trying to schmooze information , but you had better believe they will send them in a heart beat.

You can not trust them and don't believe anything they tell you. that's the best way. and I do count Fed LEO's among my friends, and I mean "Friends"... and as a former LEO I would never admit anything to one. except to say yes I used to own that gun and yes I sold it. they already know that.

I seem to recall that 90+% of the ppl in jail are there because they didn't keep their mouth shut.

Courageous Lion · September 18, 2009, 04:13 PM

Actually the reason most people are in jail...isn't necessarily because they didn't keep their mouths shut as much as it is that the government educated JURORS don't realize that they have the RIGHT and DUTY to nullify laws that violate the Constitution. That was one of the main reasons the Founding Fathers had the wisdom to make sure we have a jury system which is the effective fourth branch of government. For instance, say someone such as the man who posted this article is railroaded for violating some sort of bureaucratic technicality into a court. The JURY who understands that the right to keep and bear arms doesn't lie in a document but rather lies in the fact you were BORN could simply say NOT GUILTY YOUR HONOR and the trial is over. Or one Juror in a felony case can hang the jury thus causing the government to either have to refuse to retry or to go through the cost (even though there is no cost since they have a printing press) of trying the "perpetrator" of the thought crime again. The more people wake up and utilize the power of the jury the better off we all will be because those in the government use the jury to enslave us.

Why should ANYONE have to go to another man to ask permission to carry a firearm? Which is what is effectively taking place whenever anyone gets a concealed firearm permit, as well as registering themselves as a firearm owner with the very entity that would be most likely to come after the firearm! I may be slipping off topic...

si vis pacem, para b · October 27, 2009, 11:50 PM

I am not a tin hat kind of guy, but if an agent knocked on my door asking about a subject I am not an absolute expert in (I am not talking about guns I am talking about law) I would exercise my right to bring in my law expert (Lawyer) to answer his questions. I have a few clients that are lawyers and when I have conversations with them, their minds seem to run circles around mine. So in a case where I could possibly get wrapped up into a big mess knowing that I am innocent I still would want to have somebody that can keep me from mistakenly answering a question in a manner that can be taken the wrong way.
Any updates from the OP since this happend over a month ago.
Just my $0.02
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Huntergirl · October 28, 2009, 10:27 AM

What I had heard a few years back from my FFL, is that generally anyone who sells more than 12 guns a year, is suspect, and doesn't hold on to a purchased gun for more than a couple weeks, and sells frequently is suspect for gun dealing without an FFL. But then I wondered about estate selling.

Edward429451 · October 28, 2009, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Telephonic communications require the consent of one (1) party to the conversation & it will be noted at the start of the tape.

Not to veer the thread....but, NO.

Yoostabe. Patriot Act. Even though I had experience with this behavior with them pre-patriot. The phone company is in bed with all LE. All it takes is a phone call and they patch your line through to them.

twhidd · October 28, 2009, 01:22 PM

Well now, I thought this horse was dead a month ago. And yes. The guy is still selling.

Croz · October 28, 2009, 04:14 PM

twhidd,
I only want to know one thing. Did you get to use 'the line?'

When he identified himself as an ATF agent, did you say, "I'm guessing you're not here about the alcohol or tobacco?"

twhidd · October 28, 2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

twhidd,
I only want to know one thing. Did you get to use 'the line?'

When he identified himself as an ATF agent, did you say, "I'm guessing you're not here about the alcohol or tobacco?"

That would have been priceless, but I'm not always that quick on my feet.

September 5, 2009, 06:30 PM	#77
obxned Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2007 Location: OBX, NC Posts: 1,128	Unless I knew the person very well, any transaction would have to go through an FFL. However, if I had sold the gun without an FFL and done all that was required by law and had the documentation showing that, I would cooperate without hesitation. They have followed ownership of the firearm from manufacture or importation to your front door. They will not go away until you give them the next link in the chain. This IS their job, and there ARE people acting as dealers without getting an FFL. While it is highly unlikely any BATFE agent will become my new best friend, by removing the bad apples they are working in our best interests. __________________ “If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth.” Ronald Reagan I'm a proud member of a North Carolina *Committee of Safety*

September 8, 2009, 08:35 PM	#81
ava8harrierusmc1 Member Join Date: May 18, 2009 Location: Rocklin CA Posts: 15	i totally agree I'm glad to see the ATF doing it's job correctly and not kicking in doors of legal gun owners. SEMPER FI ava8harrierusmc1 __________________ Life is just to short to be upset by the little things in life. So if something big happens and you don't like it just wait hopefully in the end they will get it in the end if you know what I mean!

September 18, 2009, 12:12 AM	#84
AWDstylez Junior member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: Connecticut, USA Posts: 11	I see it's in the second paragraph. I guess I missed it. Last edited by JohnKSa; September 18, 2009 at 12:20 AM. Reason: Deleted snotty remark.

September 18, 2009, 12:07 PM	#88
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	Simple fix it ATF comes to door and if you let him in to ask questions place recorder in front of him recite date and time and then ask may I record this conversationand ask him to say and spell his name. If he says yes tape is legal and admissable to impeach him if he lies. If he says no tell him where your lawyers office is. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

September 18, 2009, 12:23 PM	#89
Courageous Lion Member Join Date: September 18, 2009 Location: I hang out near Harrison, Arkansas Posts: 29	Pro second amendment ATF agent? First off, there can be no such thing as a "pro" second amendment ATF agent. All the laws he enforces, well most of them are in direct violation of the second amendment. No where at any time did our Founding Fathers find it a crime to buy and sell firearms and yet there are "laws" on the books today to prohibit that very act, that is unless you go to some other man, which is what government really is folks, and ask permission. Go to some man who works for a fiction called the ATF which falls under another fiction called the "federal" government and pay him a ransom fee for the created privilege of buying and selling firearms. ME? I say do away with all the thought crimes on the books and ENFORCE the laws that pertain to protecting our lives, liberty and PROPERTY from all enemies both foreign and domestic. That means dumping all 22,000 firearms laws in the garbage as well as all the jobs that are out their enforcing them on WE the PEOPLE. Worry about crimes that are committed not crimes that we think are going to be committed. I'd say the guy who was or is under investigation for the so called crime of buying and selling firearms isn't damaging ANYONE'S LIFE, LIBERTY or PROPERTY and that is the ONLY LEGITIMATE reason for government to protect us from actions against our LIFE, LIBERTY and Property. When the government begins to pass laws that endanger the very rights it is supposed to be protecting, we have a MAJOR problem. READ the Declaration of Independence again, very slowly... __________________ None are more hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. ....Von Goethe Last edited by Courageous Lion; September 18, 2009 at 04:16 PM. Reason: typo

September 5, 2009, 02:56 PM	#76
TJH3781 Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2009 Location: Rockford IL Posts: 149	With regards to recording conversations, the Feds play by different rules that trump all state laws. Telephonic communications require the consent of one (1) party to the conversation & it will be noted at the start of the tape. I believe that the only prohibition on recording non-telephonic conversations is that the recorders cannot be permanently installed in Gov Offices without prior authorization. Otherwise, how could you ever use a Nagra with either an informant or a UC Agent. Lastly, any investigation is made to answer a question & then let the chips lay where they fall. You all ways have the right to consult an attorney before answering questions; I believe the amendment says may incriminate, not will. The only exceptions I can think of are statutory requirements to supply records of the sales of firearms. Those usually require that you produce the records at the request of a Police Officer. Federal Agents are not Police Officers; thought maybe Peace Officers depending on the state. If you are a FFL, the rules are different & you may be required to produce on demand.

September 5, 2009, 06:33 PM	#78
B.N.Real Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 4,092	I agree with Maromeo,you should not talk about this anymore. You might need to see a lawyer. Or at least,not talk more about something that makes it hard to find a lawyer if you need one in the future about this. I would be direct ,honest,remember EXACTLY what I told them and ONLY ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THEY ASK. A federal agent is not someone who needs to hear everything you did with firearms in the last twenty years. Just the facts that pertain to what they are investigating. They actually appreciate people that don't talk off their ears.

September 6, 2009, 08:24 PM	#79
ndbbm Member Join Date: November 26, 2008 Posts: 37	In this situation, if you made a leagal transaction, I don't see the problems with talking with the Feds. I have never heard of any situation where the ATF tried to railroad someone for something they didn't deserve. They try to enforce the laws we have so the libs don't create new ones. And by this I mean all of the illeagal transactions like straw purchases. If this guy has been buying this many guns and reselling them, maybe it could be something more than a tax issue. I think Bartholomew Roberts hit the nail on the head, good post!

September 7, 2009, 04:14 AM	#80
Alpha Centauri Member Join Date: June 5, 2009 Posts: 19	I've sold one handgun on a well known online auction. And it made me nervous as hell. To cover my bacon, I got a copy of the FFL license that I was to ship to. I then verified it with BATFE that the FFL dealer was legit and in good legal standing. Then I CALLED the FFL to confirm that they were expecting delivery of said firearm, description "X" to customer "Y". Then I packaged it exactly as per the letter of the law, declared EVERYTHING to Fed Ex, got the appropriate paperwork from FedEX, and followed up the next day with the FFL. Still, it made me nervous, and that was a textbook, law-abiding transaction. I'm staying away from online firearms auctions myself.

September 17, 2009, 10:25 PM	#82
AWDstylez Junior member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: Connecticut, USA Posts: 11	How did the ATF find you?

September 17, 2009, 11:06 PM	#83
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	AWDstylez, there is no one here to brief you on what has transpired to this point. Read the whole thread.

September 18, 2009, 09:20 AM	#85
WARRIOR I Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2009 Location: SC Posts: 169	While the BATFE appears to be viewed negatively by many gun owners, I'm not so sure this reputation is wholly deserved. I've heard most of the horror stories put out by some of the organizations which seek to protect 2nd Amendment rights, but at the same time my few personal contacts with the agency have been very positive. In fact, the only firearm I've had stolen and later recovered, a Browning High Power, was returned by an ATF agent back in 1970.

September 18, 2009, 09:31 AM	#86
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	There's probably some truth to that. Their reputation is driven to some degree by their mission. They manage constraints on our ownership and also police violations. It is only natural to resent enforcers.

September 18, 2009, 12:59 PM	#90
Montanaman Member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Freedon America Posts: 20	Talking to the Man I think this fits in this subject very well, but you will need to go and read it yourself, it's not set up to copy and paste... http://www.spw-duf.info/saynothing.html I must agree with the Author, but as to the OP's question, I'd say that the fact the ATF agent was at your door tell you they know it was your gun, the fact the buyer had sold it they already know, so by saying yes I sold him the gun is not a confession on your part, they already knew it and had the proof. But other then saying yes I sold it to him that's all I'd admit, and by saying " Yes I sold it but have nothing more to add" your not failing to coop your just CYA, and yes you best be doing that, they aren't going to send the JBT's around when trying to schmooze information , but you had better believe they will send them in a heart beat. You can not trust them and don't believe anything they tell you. that's the best way. and I do count Fed LEO's among my friends, and I mean "Friends"... and as a former LEO I would never admit anything to one. except to say yes I used to own that gun and yes I sold it. they already know that. I seem to recall that 90+% of the ppl in jail are there because they didn't keep their mouth shut.

September 18, 2009, 04:13 PM	#91
Courageous Lion Member Join Date: September 18, 2009 Location: I hang out near Harrison, Arkansas Posts: 29	Actually the reason most people are in jail... Actually the reason most people are in jail...isn't necessarily because they didn't keep their mouths shut as much as it is that the government educated JURORS don't realize that they have the RIGHT and DUTY to nullify laws that violate the Constitution. That was one of the main reasons the Founding Fathers had the wisdom to make sure we have a jury system which is the effective fourth branch of government. For instance, say someone such as the man who posted this article is railroaded for violating some sort of bureaucratic technicality into a court. The JURY who understands that the right to keep and bear arms doesn't lie in a document but rather lies in the fact you were BORN could simply say NOT GUILTY YOUR HONOR and the trial is over. Or one Juror in a felony case can hang the jury thus causing the government to either have to refuse to retry or to go through the cost (even though there is no cost since they have a printing press) of trying the "perpetrator" of the thought crime again. The more people wake up and utilize the power of the jury the better off we all will be because those in the government use the jury to enslave us. Why should ANYONE have to go to another man to ask permission to carry a firearm? Which is what is effectively taking place whenever anyone gets a concealed firearm permit, as well as registering themselves as a firearm owner with the very entity that would be most likely to come after the firearm! I may be slipping off topic... __________________ None are more hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. ....Von Goethe Last edited by Courageous Lion; September 18, 2009 at 04:15 PM. Reason: typo

October 27, 2009, 11:50 PM	#92
si vis pacem, para b Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2008 Location: Cypress (North West Houston) Posts: 157	I am not a tin hat kind of guy, but if an agent knocked on my door asking about a subject I am not an absolute expert in (I am not talking about guns I am talking about law) I would exercise my right to bring in my law expert (Lawyer) to answer his questions. I have a few clients that are lawyers and when I have conversations with them, their minds seem to run circles around mine. So in a case where I could possibly get wrapped up into a big mess knowing that I am innocent I still would want to have somebody that can keep me from mistakenly answering a question in a manner that can be taken the wrong way. Any updates from the OP since this happend over a month ago. Just my $0.02 Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum __________________ If you’re killed, you’ve lost a very important part of your life.” Brooke Shields

October 28, 2009, 10:27 AM	#93
Huntergirl Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2005 Location: Wyoming Posts: 907	What I had heard a few years back from my FFL, is that generally anyone who sells more than 12 guns a year, is suspect, and doesn't hold on to a purchased gun for more than a couple weeks, and sells frequently is suspect for gun dealing without an FFL. But then I wondered about estate selling.

October 28, 2009, 01:22 PM	#95
twhidd Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 823	Well now, I thought this horse was dead a month ago. And yes. The guy is still selling. __________________ Todd NRA Life Member Last edited by twhidd; October 28, 2009 at 01:38 PM.

October 28, 2009, 04:14 PM	#96
Croz Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 307	twhidd, I only want to know one thing. Did you get to use 'the line?' When he identified himself as an ATF agent, did you say, "I'm guessing you're not here about the alcohol or tobacco?"