Best caliber for self defense

[JohnKSa]

Originally Posted by The Verminator

Where in the world did I ever say that " there were good studies out there showing that caliber choice makes a significant difference in the outcome of real-world gunfights." (?)

Hmm. You could have cleared up any confusion immediately rather than changing the subject instead.

That aside, it seemed reasonable to assume that when you said: "There are plenty of good studies around that give us good information." they were studies about caliber choice for self-defense since that's the topic of the thread. But misunderstandings can happen. What are the studies you referred to and what are they studying?

Originally Posted by Frank Etttin

But if your assailant is not thus inclined to give up, Ellifitz at least suggests that certain cartridges are more likely to yield a better outcome than others.

In the service pistol performance range, the similarities are a lot more pronounced than the differences.

Looking at failures (presumably these are determined attackers), the service pistol rounds are all within 1% of each other with the exception of .357Mag being a little better and .38Spl being a little worse.

It's interesting to see that the .357 and .45 data shows noticeably better accuracy than the other service pistol calibers (presumably because they are calibers more likely to be chosen by experienced shooters) and yet that doesn't seem to yield significantly better outcomes overall. That is, no matter which statistic one chooses, there's at least one other member of the service pistol performance class that equals or outperforms them when comparing that statistic.

For example, looking at the .45ACP which easily had the best accuracy figures of the service pistol cartridges at 85% hits, we see that the .38Spl equals it for fatal hits and bests it for average number of rounds until incapacitation, 9mm and .40S&W best it for % of people who were not incapacitated, and .38Spl and .40S&W best it for one shot stop percentages. So even though it appears that the .45ACP shooters were better, on average, even that wasn't sufficient to put the .45ACP decisively out in front in the other categories as one might expect.

[105kw]

I have gotten rid of my 40s and 45autos, due to damage to my hands and wrists I can't take the recoil or torque anymore.
I've always liked 9mm, and 38 Special. Less recoil, and to me better accuracy.
What's best, is dependent on what you can shoot accurately, and have confidence in. I would advise against 22LR, and 25auto, but as one of my mentors said. "It beats throwing rocks".
So what's best for defense isn't always the most powerful, IMO it's what you can get hits with.
And practice, as much as you can.

[jar]

An experienced man wants to avoid gunfights and take everything somewhere else.

An experienced man chooses what he is likely to shoot most accurately and repeatedly THAT day.

[The Verminator]

Originally Posted by The Verminator
Where in the world did I ever say that " there were good studies out there showing that caliber choice makes a significant difference in the outcome of real-world gunfights." (?)

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

Hmm. You could have cleared up any confusion immediately rather than changing the subject instead.

Ok.........was that an apology for making up words that I never said and posting them as my words?

If so, apology accepted.

And let's continue to keep things honest.

I didn't "change the subject."

I made a simple and pertinent statement demonstrating that choosing the .22 in a gunfight is not something an experienced man is likely to do.

Nobody wanted to talk about or acknowledge that inconvenient truth.

To answer your question, I was talking about research in general because it seemed to be under attack.

Unlike the useless and unscientific study that was presented earlier in the thread, there is plenty of good research that is done well and can give us useful info on many topics........but we always have to study it with a critical eye.

As to the question of stopping power studies, they all face the same problem......even the good ones who made a worthy attempt.

There are just too many variable and intangible factors.

[The Verminator]

Originally Posted by Tool

All of my handguns have been 9mm. I'm tempted to buy an HK USP with a larger caliber. After all, I live in a state that prevent me from using magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds anyway.

Which one is better? 45 acp or 40 SW?

It might be useful for you to look at the history of the FBI choices in caliber.

There may not be a "Best" caliber for everyone.

There may be a caliber that is the best choice that will work well for most people while offering sufficient stopping power.

My guess is that the FBI (after a lot of heavy consideration) found it.

[JohnKSa]

Ok.........was that an apology for making up words that I never said and posting them as my words?

If you feel it's reasonable to take offense because I assumed your comment was meant to be interpreted in the context of the thread, then it is equally reasonable to interpret my later comment as an apology.

As to the question of stopping power studies, they all face the same problem......even the good ones who made a worthy attempt.

There are just too many variable and intangible factors.

That is very true. Still, whatever the reason, the bottom line remains the bottom line. No one has yet been able to do a study that shows a significant/meaningful advantage to one of the service pistol calibers over the others when it comes to real-world gunfight outcomes. One has to wonder how something that is significant/meaningful could be so difficult to detect. At least for awhile. After awhile, one might begin to suspect that the very fact that the effect is so hard to detect is actually proof that it can not be significant/meaningful.

It might be useful for you to look at the history of the FBI choices in caliber.

That's probably as reasonable an approach as any.

My guess is that the FBI (after a lot of heavy consideration) found it.

Perhaps. The FBI currently issues 9mm pistols.

[Jack Ryan]

45 and 40 are "equal". LOL
Except one is BIGGER than the other.

Lately, I've been liking 10mm pretty darn good for a few years now.

[JohnKSa]

There are certainly differences, but no one seems to be able to prove those differences actually have a significant effect on the outcome of gunfights.

I'm not making this up--do what I did and try to find the evidence. If there's a significant effect it should not only be detectable, it should be easily detectable. Instead, you find people making excuses for why the effect doesn't show up in the data. Excuses can be entertaining, but they don't actually get you any closer to finding the truth.

Lately, I've been liking 10mm pretty darn good for a few years now.

Yup. It's a fun caliber. I've been shooting 10mm for about 30 years now. Lately I've been thinking about buying a third pistol in the caliber.

[Metric]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

There are certainly differences, but no one seems to be able to prove those differences actually have a significant effect on the outcome of gunfights.

I'm not making this up--do what I did and try to find the evidence. If there's a significant effect it should not only be detectable, it should be easily detectable. Instead, you find people making excuses for why the effect doesn't show up in the data. Excuses can be entertaining, but they don't actually get you any closer to finding the truth.Yup. It's a fun caliber. I've been shooting 10mm for about 30 years now. Lately I've been thinking about buying a third pistol in the caliber.

Yes, this is the unavoidable point. The harder you look, the less you see evidence that caliber matters. It should be obvious, but it's not.

It's undeniable that some handgun calibers have bigger bullets. It's undeniable that some have more energy.

But, when it comes to the results of actual gunfights, they're all just poking a hole. You almost can't tell the difference by looking at the stats.

The stats do change in a noticeable and obvious way when you get to shotgun and rifle, but not before. That's interesting too, because it tells us that we actually can see effects in the statistics, when they happen to be present.

I like 10mm too, btw. If I could have only two handguns, one would be 22, the other 10mm.

[The Verminator]

Interesting picture.

Only the 9mm looks a little weak, although the damage is still great.

I just wish they had included a picture of a .22 LR hit.........that would probably end the .22 recommendations.



https://imgur.com/a/6lTrGAZ

[The Verminator]

Something to note about the above picture.

The .45 ACP, will have a slightly less snappy felt recoil.

The .40s and the .357 truly have a different and more unpleasant feel to them.

My Glock 30, due to the Gen four double spring system, is the most manageable .45 I've ever owned.

[JohnKSa]

I just wish they had included a picture of a .22 LR hit.........that would probably end the .22 recommendations.

There's a reason they picked the calibers they did for that picture. Notice that they didn't include .44Mag or .380ACP either.

It's pretty rare to get serious self-defense recommendations for .22LR (or any rimfire caliber), that don't include the caveat that it's not a good idea for anyone who can handle anything else.

There's a reason my favorite .22LR handgun is a revolver--I got tired of dealing with reliability issues with .22 autos. But .22LR revolvers (especially smaller ones) tend to have pretty stiff DA triggers and can even be difficult to cock, which is likely to be problematic for people who can't deal with the recoil of any centerfire caliber due to hand problems. My .22LR handguns are for fun/training, not self-defense.

Interesting picture.

Yup. Although it's a pretty old picture--there are probably loads out there now that perform better. That said, given the difficulty in picking a caliber winner from the service pistol category based on gunfight outcome data, imagine the difficulty in selecting loadings from within just one caliber based on the same data. I don't know that anyone has even tried to do something like that.

Which means that I'm picking nits when I talk about better performance when comparing premium self-defense ammo--pick something reliable that expands a reasonable amount and penetrates far enough to reach the vitals from a less than ideal angle and you should be good.

[reddog81]

Every choice is a compromise.

There is no "best" for all people in all scenarios. However I'd say it's pretty easy to make the case that 9mm is probably the best option for the average person given availability & price of ammo, price & variety of sizes of guns, ease of shooting, etc. Even getting a sufficient amount of training on a 9mm gets to be expensive for your average person.

Are there more powerful options? Sure... 45 ACP, 45 Super, 44 Mag, 460 S&W... If more powerful is better why stop at 45 ACP?

Who in their right mind would choose 13 rounds of less powerful 45 ACP over 15 rounds of 10MM

[Jack Ryan]

At 69 years old I don't need the world to show me the difference between bigger and not as big. I've shot 'em for my self. I KNOW.

[The Verminator]

Originally Posted by reddog81

Every choice is a compromise.

There is no "best" for all people in all scenarios. However I'd say it's pretty easy to make the case that 9mm is probably the best option for the average person given availability & price of ammo, price & variety of sizes of guns, ease of shooting, etc. Even getting a sufficient amount of training on a 9mm gets to be expensive for your average person.

Are there more powerful options? Sure... 45 ACP, 45 Super, 44 Mag, 460 S&W... If more powerful is better why stop at 45 ACP?

Who in their right mind would choose 13 rounds of less powerful 45 ACP over 15 rounds of 10MM

Actually, I favor my Glock 30 in .45 ACP, but.........I probably carry the 9mm Glock 19 more often because it serves the purpose, is a little lighter and carries more rounds.

I respect the wisdom of the FBI.

I reject the 10mm because it's not that much more powerful than the .45 and ammo is a lot more expensive and not widely available.

If I were hiking where I might meet a Griz.........it might be worth it. As things stand. No.

[armoredman]

The best caliber for self defense? The one in your hand when trouble arrives.

[Jim Watson]

Which begs the question, what do you choose to have in your hand when trouble arrives.

Say, JohnKSa, did I miss what your choice was, amidst all this morass of inconclusive prose?

[44 AMP]

I respect the wisdom of the FBI.

I don't.

[JohnKSa]

Say, JohnKSa, did I miss what your choice was, amidst all this morass of inconclusive prose?

My nightstand gun is a 10mm I bought decades ago. If I were buying something new today, I might get something different, but it's been in the spot so long it just seems to fit there. I've taken it to class and competed with it.

For carry, it's going to be either 9mm or .380 ACP depending on what I can manage to conceal. My main carry pistol is a full-sized 9mm I bought the day after I bought the 10mm nightstand gun. I've taken classes with it and competed with it.

The .380 is carried when I can't manage to conceal anything else. I accept its limitations, both in terms of shootability and penetration in return for concealability. I have another compact carry gun in 9mm that's halfway between my full-sized carry pistol and the little .380.

All of the guns point the same for me and have similar operation so I don't have to work too hard remembering how each one of them operates in a pinch.

I've also got a .357Mag around here somewhere that stays loaded and could be picked up and used for self-defense if the need arose. It was my first handgun and it will stay with me as long as I can own firearms.

[jetinteriorguy]

One of my shooting buddies is retired from the FBI. At one time he was a firearms instructor and he carries an old S&W snub nose 5shot revolver in an ankle rig. I forget the actual model gun it is, but it’s been around and the action is about as slick as they come. He thinks .38sp and five rounds is more than sufficient for his needs. He offered to give me some tips when I was complaining about shooting too far left with my Hellcat. Then I emptied 13 round’s rapid fire into a 3” circle at 7yds and was about an inch left. He seemed to think that was fine.

[Pumpkin]

“I respect the wisdom of the FBI”

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I don't.

Amen!

[The Verminator]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I don't.

Maybe I should have dropped a caveat--I respect the wisdom of the FBI in choosing the 9mm..........which may be the only thing I can think of.

Their choice of the 9mm is wise for their situation........it may be the best all around choice that can work well for most people.

[The Verminator]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

For carry, it's going to be either 9mm or .380 ACP depending on what I can manage to conceal.

Reminds me of my old Swedish grandma who used to say "There's no such thing as bad weather--just bad clothing."

[44 AMP]

Their choice of the 9mm is wise for their situation........it may be the best all around choice that can work well for most people.

The 9mm was the FBI's choice, then it wasn't, now it is, again.

Don't forget that any organization's choice is going to be what they feel is best for the organzation, and may not be the best choice for a specific individual's needs.

[JohnKSa]

"There's no such thing as bad weather--just bad clothing."

I don't mind putting more on when it's cold, but when it's 110 outside I'm thinking a lot more about taking stuff off and there's definitely a limit to what society will tolerate in that regard!