Glaser Safety Slugs

[Slartibardfast]

Does anyone have any experience or opinions about the Glaser Safety Slug line? I picked up a box of 9mm+P that I have yet to shoot. I interested in hearing from anyone that has used any of the calibers in the Safety Slug product line. Specifically how the Safety Slugs compared to other rounds of the same caliber.

Thanks

[labgrade]

Need the sheepish grin smiley here (for me). I had Glasers in my 9mm for a while, then switched to the MUCH better Mag-Safes based on what I'd read re the Strausburg Tests ... a bolt from the blue. Then, I found this forum - actually wanted to do a search to confirm my inflated self-opinion & superb knowledge on the subject.

Since, I've archived all the "magic bullets" & stoke the 9 w/more tradtional, but newer style JHP (Golden Sabers, in this instance).

Do a search for "frangilble bullets," "Strausberg (sp?)," etc. & curl up. You'll have lots of reading to do.

[Dennis]

Moving this thread from the General Forum to the Handguns and Pistolcraft Forum.

[pluspinc]

The reading of the fraud goat tests are light reading.
I shoot a lot of Glasers in training including at cars etc. I have them in all my guns. Their DECADES of use and field reports tells it all. Problem is the urban legends about leather coats etc. They work and they are a surgeons nightmare.

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.

[labgrade]

Well, OK. pluspinc, now I'm cornfused. Info from Tactical says that the frangibles aren't optimum - not enough penetration & sounds as if the hydro-static shock theory doesn't hold up with pistol rounds = lower velocity.

So what gives? Always willing to learn.

MagSafes' report says better wound channel in .380 than .45, etc.

Surprised to hear that you've Glasers in your shooters. Thought you would be in the more traditional vein.

[Dave Williams]

I'll chime in on Glasers. I know QUITE a few people who use Glasers in their backup guns in .380 and .38. I only personally know one person who carries Glasers in his primary, and he has an acquaintence who works for a coroner, and the simple fact is that people who have seen autopsies on those killed with Glasers are impressed by the results, big time. The one shooting he speaks of, the BG supposedely took a Glaser Silver through a van door, and it was a fatal hit even after penetrating the van door. True? Urban Legend? I don't have the definitive answer either, but IMHO, Glasers work. As always, $.02.

Dave

[Kentucky Rifle]

I've done quite a bit of reading about Glaser's. IMO, the round is a good one. My "hot weather" pistol is a Colt (yeah, I know) Mustang Pocketlite. I keep the magazine loaded with Galser's and Federal Hydra-Shok's in an alternating order. I don't feel under-gunned when I carry the Mustang. However, I have wondered if I should put Glaser's in my new Kel-Tec P-32. The projectile is so small, and I wonder if the "full" effect of the Glaser will happen. Right now the P-32 is loaded with Hydra-Shok's. Any opinion's??

Will

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Mendacity is the system we live in.

[pluspinc]

Information from "tactical?" What's a "tactical" I thought it was a latin word that means, " black with velcro and a hell of alot more expensive."
Who says Glasers don't penetrate enough? And how do they know? I'd love to SEE the medical reports. The xrays I have don't show a problem. They do have the medical reports and xrays.....don't they? Or just good bar talk?
They aren't for every situation or gun, but they have a place. I prefer them IN my home, and snubbie guns that will be arms length use. BTW, the heart and lung are about two or three inches at most below the surface of your skin.
Glasers are VERY "traditional." Don't confuse fads, fraudulent goat tests for marketing with reality. Also the BeeSafe line is a damned good product also. I worked with the inventor on these and they also have a place and you can buy the slugs for reloading your own. Check those out via Corbon.

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.

[John Overbey]

Here's a question... What's the difference between the "Blue" and the "Silver" Glasers? I've seen both advertised, but no explaination of the differences between the two. Thanks again.
-John

[Jeff OTMG]

John, the Glaser is a pre-fragmented round and the Blue uses small lead pellets while the Silver uses larger lead pellets. The larger pellets give deeper penetration for those who feel the need. The primary function for a Glaser of MagSafe round is for an armed citizen or an off duty LEO where the shooting will offer a full frontal target. All the copies of x-rays I have are from Glaser Blue shootings and IMHO the deeper penetration of the Silver is unnecessary since the heart, lungs, and brain are all within 6" of the surface.

[Walt Welch]

I was an Emergency MD for 20 years. Saw many GSW's. I decry the use of any sort of frangible ammunition.

The best way to stop an attacker is to punch large holes through vital organs, and repeat until the attacker is down. No frangible ammunition will do this.

Walter Welch, MD, Diplomate, American Board of Emergency Medicine

[pluspinc]

Walt? You treated how many Glaser wounds? I've got a little collection of xrays and you wouldn't like what you see. Even in a badly placed shot you know about bleeders. Now imagine HUNDREDS of them. You only get so much time and finding those little bleeders and clamping them off or trying to repair them takes TIME and we have only so much blood to leak out or attempt to put back in.
That is why a shotgun has a 67% lethality rate vs 14% for a handgun with conventional bullets, and that is based on a major ER study a few years ago.
Only so many hands can do so much work on the inside of a human body and with 300+ pellets even badly placeD, it is a time not trauma issue.
If you have worked on Glaser wound let us know. We'd appreciate the input. The docs that have worked on them have one thing to say....ISH..

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.

[labgrade]

Tactical = Firearms Tactical http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
(did the edit 'cause I'd given wrong place)
They (in association with IWBA) seem to think the frangibles aren't what they're cracked up to be. Beats me what's real & not. Many differences of opinions on what's best.

Only experience I have is with the real frangibles - 12 ga.

[This message has been edited by labgrade (edited January 30, 2000).]

[DougB]

Pluspinc,
I really enjoyed your definition of "tactical" (a latin word that means, "black with velcro and a hell of alot more expensive."). For any Scuba divers out there, this is very close to the currently popular "Technical" diving equipment, which could be defined as "Black, with lots of D-rings, and a lot more expensive"). I think the mentality is much the same (if I can't BE a navy seal, at least I can look like one) . I don't mean this as a flame of anyone in any way - there is plenty of "tactical" as well as "technical" gear I'd love to own and use.

Labgrade,
Thanks for the link - I hadn't seen this, but now have it marked. Some interesting reading.

[Rosco P. Coltrain]

I just got a new tactical mouse.

[Schmit]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pluspinc:
I have them in all my guns. (i.e. fragibles)[/quote]


OK PlusP... what is your expert opinion of Quik-Shok?


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Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

[Walt Welch]

pluspinc; didn't treat any Glaser or Mag-Safe wounds. There haven't been that many. Dale Towert (Marshall/Sanow)'s data don't even list the number of shootings as there have been so few.

I HAVE seen several shotgun wounds. Most were found by chance. A chest x-ray would show multiple pellets, the lateral would show that they were all in the soft tissue of the back. Most were relics of a youth misspent in raiding watermelon patches.

I have taken BLS, ACLS, and ATLS as well as attending several advanced trauma classes. Plus, as mentioned, I have seen and treated many GSW's. Further, I started reloading in the 1950's, and am conversant with internal, external, and terminal ballistics.

Frangible bullets are junk. They don't work. The best, and, IMHO, ONLY thing to do if you wish to incapacitate an attacker as quickly as possible is to punch large holes in vital organs, and repeat this as often as possible.

Go to the FTI site; read about the 1986 FBI Miami shootout. It is in Tactical Briefs #7.

May I suggest you give your own qualifications in this field, since you, sir, have the advantage on me as the matter now stands.

Sincerely, Walter Welch MD, Diplomate, American Board of Emergency Medicine

[AC]

Walt,
How can you say frangibles are junk and don't work when you have no experience with them? OK, you hunt, you were an ER doc, you treated gun shot wounds, but none with these loads.

No offense, but how do your medical credentials make you more of an authority on this than an interested hobbyist with a good grasp of anatomy, physiology, and ballistics.

[pluspinc]

Glaser shootings are not hard to find and are far more common than one would suspect. In fact contact Mr. Cannon at Glaser and he can help you out. Surprised you didn't think of that.
Having investigated shootings as a former Chief of Police among other things and having to do forensic photography and as a court approved expert witness on self-defense firearms use and police procedure, I get into such cases on a regular basis.
With a a lethality rate of 67% for shotguns I'm surprised you refer to them as more pesty than lethal and refer to kids stealing watermelons vs more common crime related shootings.
Maybe you worked in more rural areas. Having had to handle suicides where even .410's were used (some botched) even a layman learns the damage they do.
Perhaps you should visit my web page at www.plus.com and review the photos of gunshot wounds including the shotgun wounds. I'll also give you some homework. One photo is a serious medical error, see if you can find it. It doesn't change the content, but our source made an error that even he blushes at.
I'd appreciate your opinion of the gallery even if you disagree. You don't find this stuff in gun rags, and even though we disagree I admire your up front effort in a group like this. It is good for all of us.
As for Glaser's being junk, I think the company can get you some xrays to say otherwise. I've seen one shooting with a .380 Glaser and the fellow was hit right in the cheek of his butt and they had to debride almost all of it and he lost a lot of blood. For a .380 I was impressed.

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.

[Walt Welch]

AC; MD's are faced with extrapolation from existing data all the time, and have to handle situations and conditions they have never seen before. Just because I didn't see something, doesn't mean I wasn't ready for it, or didn't have an idea what to expect. As an example, I studied an entity called pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism. Very unusual disease. I asked a friend/colleague of mine, who is an endocrinologist (who would be the one do diagnose and treat such a condition), if she had ever seen a case. She said no, but she thought there had been one in the teaching files at the hospital where she was a resident.

Same thing with frangibles. The kids who were shot with bird shot didn't die. People have even survived near point blank 12 ga. shotgun wounds with 00 buck.

Here is what we are trying to accomplish. We want the person who is attacking us to become incapacitated quickly. Frangibles do this by causing lots of little bleeders. WOW!! That is terrific!! The guy might die in a day or two!

Most people have no idea how long it takes for a person to bleed out to the point where they become incapacitated. Here are some data from the FTI site:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Newgard, Ken, M.D.: "The Physiological Effects of Handgun Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation." Wound Ballistics Review, 1(3): 12-17; 1992.

This article examines the physiological mechanisms of the human body to provide a medical answer to the question: How many times is it necessary to shoot an assailant before he is incapacitated?

Newgard reviews the physiological mechanisms of gunshot wound trauma incapacitation:

"The only method of reliably stopping a human with a handgun is to decrease the functioning capability of the central nervous system (CNS) and specifically, the brain and cervical spinal cord. There are two ways to accomplish this goal: 1) direct trauma to the CNS tissue resulting in tissue destruction and 2) lack of oxygen to the brain caused by bleeding and loss of blood pressure."

Newgard discusses the body's blood loss sensory and compensatory mechanisms (venous constriction, increased cardiac output and vascular fluid transfer), and the degree in which these mechanisms respond to, and compensate for, hemorrhagic shock. He reviews clinical tests of human tolerance for blood loss which, "demonstrate that adequate blood pressure can be maintained with minimal symptoms until a 20% blood deficit was reached." Newgard provides the following example:

"For an average 70 kg (155 lb.)* male the cardiac output will be 5.5 liters (~1.4 gallons) per minute. His blood volume will be 60 ml per kg (0.92 fl. oz. per lb.) or 4200 ml (~1.1 gallons). Assuming his cardiac output can double under stress (as his heart beats faster and with greater force). his aortic blood flow can reach 11 liters (~2.8 gallons) per minute. If one assumes a wound that totally severs the thoracic aorta, then it would take 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. This is the minimum time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume.... This analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perfusing the brain, that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.

"Most wounds will not bleed at this rate because: 1) bullets usually do not transect (completely sever) blood vessels, 2) as blood pressure falls, the bleeding slows, 3) surrounding tissue acts as a barrier to blood loss, 4) the bullet may only penetrate smaller blood vessels, 5) bullets can disrupt tissue without hitting any major blood vessels resulting in a slow ooze rather than rapid bleeding, and 6) the above mentioned compensatory mechanisms."

Newgard investigates the survival times of persons who received fatal gunshot wounds to determine if the person who was shot had enough time to shoot back. He concludes:

"Instantaneous incapacitation is not possible with non central nervous system wounds and does not always occur with central nervous system wounds. The intrinsic physiologic compensatory mechanisms of humans makes it difficult to inhibit a determined, aggressive person's activities until he has lost enough blood to cause hemorrhagic shock. The body's compensatory mechanisms designed to save a person's life after sustaining a bleeding wound, allow a person to continue to be a threat after receiving an eventually fatal wound, thus necessitating more rounds being fired in order to incapacitate or stop the assailant."
[/quote]

Kindly note numbers 4 and 5 above.

Consider the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami. One of the perps, Platt, was struck with a 9 mm Silvertip 115 gr. JHP. It was his first, and ONLY fatal wound. It entered his right elbow, transected his brachial artery, which began spurting arterial blood and continued to do so until he went down. The bullet then went into his right chest, completely collapsing the lung, and severing several pulmonary vessels, such that about 1300 cc of blood was found in his right chest at autopsy (about 3 pints). The bullet stopped one inch from the wall of the heart.

Do you think that this is good performance from a bullet? I certainly do. However, the perp managed to fight for about 4 minutes after this wound was inflicted, killing and wounding several FBI agents, before becoming incapacitated FROM HIS FIRST WOUND.

The Feebies, of course, couldn't admit that poor marksmanship and tactics were the cause of the debacle; indeed they commended the marksmanship of the agents! And switched to the 10mm. For a short while.

You 'frangibles' want to make the human vascular system into one of those hoses that has a zillion tiny holes in it, and squirt tiny streams of water in all directions. My aim is to cut the darn hose. Even if I do that, however, it may NOT incapacitate the assailant. Unless I keep putting large holes through vital organs. Which is the best way to put an assailant down.

Pluspinc: I visited your web site, but was unable to navagate to the autopsy photos. Your help will be appreciated.

Walt

[pluspinc]

Walt. You are 100% right but so is your source. HOWEVER, there are only really two ways to get a assured instant stop and the spine and brain are IT. Pure and simple. 40% of those shot in the heart will LIVE. Thanks to level 1 Trauma Centers. HOWEVER, your analogy of "birdshot" and shotgun wounds is a poor one. Most self defense shootings are under 21 feet. I doubt the kids stealing watermelons were shot at that close of range or using larger shot sizes. YUP, some will survive a direct 00 buck hit, but don't count on it. Question is, did it stop them.
NOT to rely on bleeding is rather silly, because the vast majority of shots will have to do just that. Not all are spine and brain shots as we well know.
What you fail to take into account is the cases where a shot to the leg, arm, or very non-vital area accounts for an instant stopping of activity.
As for days to bleed, I think NOT. There are plenty of feeders as you know in the area of the liver, spleen etc., that if nicked can cause plenty of damage and rapid blood loss, not county arteries in the neck, thigh and even under arm.
We had an officer shot in the upper thigh and couldn't save him. Took just minutes for him to go into full arrest and die.
In the field pressure seldom can be applied to such wounds with any effect.
The 67% lethality rate of shotguns vs 14% for handguns is rather telling about how that works. Those shotgun wounds are not mostly wounds to head or spine.
I doubt if the DECADES of use of Glaser and even Magsafe have been a sham and smoke and mirrors. They aren't for EVERY purpose but they are very useful in the right locations such as high density housing, aircraft, crowds etc.
The amount of bleeding is one thing, but what few understand is TIME. Do the medical staff have the TIME to stop the bleeding etc before full arrest and other damage. Depending on location of the incident to a level 1 trauma center or even basic medical treatment becomes an issue for surviveability.
My web page will show a fatality where the slug never entered the skull. Bullets are strange creatures and unless we can shoot people who stand still in the head or spine, we have to resort to bleeding. There is no other way to make it work. To get bleedding we have to have damage. A single bullet is highly limited for a wide variety of reasons on how much damage it can do. 50% of hollowpoints for example never expand. Hollowpoints are a total gamble.
A frangible on the other hand seems to always do what it is supposed to do and that is break into fragments. It also reduces the risk to others etc.
A wound track of a single projectile is rather easy to treat in many cases compared to the almost mandatory surgery required to treat any frangible hit. You just don't leave 300 pellets inside of someone. Math will tell you some will do something that needs repair. On the other hand a single bullet often needs little treatment including debriding of tissue.
The only major disadvantage of a frangible is that is will seldom hit bone and cause secondary fragmenting like some single projectiles will.
Again, I urge you to contact Glaser for some good xrays and medical reports Mr. Canon has. You will flinch at some of them. But to say they are junk and have no place goes against KNOWN results in the field.
To reach our galler section go to the front page www.plusp.com and click on "gallery." The photos are there. Look forward to your opinion good or bad. Unlike some in the biz I don't mind taking a critic head on. Good for both of us and other posters here.

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.

[Libertarian]

My one experiance with Glasers was when I decided to find out how they shot in my S&W .357 snubby. I figured if I was going to have them loaded for home defense I should know how the shot.

First I shot my normal 125 gr STHP at a 25' target. Two cylinders, all with-in three inches.

Next I loaded up six Glasers. At the same point of aim (center) all six went 19 inches low.

I did not understand it, but at the premium price for the rounds, I decided to stick with my tried and true STHP.

[Coyote]

PlusP wrote: Walt? You treated how many Glaser wounds? I've got a little collection of xrays and you wouldn't like what you see. Even in a badly placed shot you know about bleeders. Now imagine HUNDREDS of them. You only get so much time and finding those little bleeders and clamping them off or trying to repair them takes TIME and we have only so much blood to leak out or attempt to put back in.
That is why a shotgun has a 67% lethality rate vs 14% for a handgun with conventional bullets, and that is based on a major ER study a few years ago.
Only so many hands can do so much work on the inside of a human body and with 300+ pellets even badly placeD, it is a time not trauma issue.

I think part of the point is that your goal in self defense is to make the person stop whatever it is they are doing. As soon as possible. Whether they live or die in a hospital 3 days from then is of no consequence if they've already taken care of you first. I can see what you mean about frangibles being an emergency doc's nightmare, but the time issue I'm concerned about is not the time the trauma team spends desperately trying to save the guy's life, it's the time between when he gets shot, and when and if he goes down. Sure, he may have hundreds of little bleeders that make it a nightmare for surgeons to fix, but if they don't incapacitate him quickly enough to stop him from doing what he's doing, what difference does it make that he takes up a few hours of ER time before dying, except spite?

-Coyote.

[tatters]

Great site, plusp.
The hard picture was the little boy. Made my heart skip a beat.
Hard to believe there are people who would do that to kids.
Maybe it is folks like that who make me want to carry a gun at all.


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Knock twice. Rap with your cane. Feels nice. You're out of the rain. We got your skinny girls. Here at the Western World
from Steely Dan's "Western World"

[rock_jock]

pluspinc,

First a comment: Really enjoyed your website. I have seen pictures like this before, but they are always still powerful reminders of what a firearm can do. These should be required in every CCW class. I can't think of a better way to get the message of gun safety across to neophytes.

Now for my question: what is the practical shelf life for Blasers? I have some in my Glock that I bought back in '94. I shoot about once or twice a month, but do not practice with Blasers because of expense. Is it time to fire these off and get a new batch? Also, I alternate these with Hydra-shoks. What do you think of this type of loading?