What Frame Is it?

ZipTieNinja · December 9, 2002, 01:39 PM

I am going to order a nice leather holster for a loved one, and need to know what style frame the gun is. Its a Colt Police Special, .38 Special.

So what kind of frame is it?
And maybe more importantly, how is that determined?
More modern models with the same frame style? Just in case the gun model is listed, not the style...

Thanks for the help.

Jim Watson · December 9, 2002, 02:01 PM

Problem is, there is no such thing as a Colt Police Special.
There are the Police Positive, the Official Police, the Army Special, also the Marshal, Commando, Officer's Model Special, New Police, Border Patrol, Detective Special, Agent, Trooper, Lawman, Peacekeeper, and the Police Python. And those are just the ones with law enforcement related names.
What are the barrel markings?
Got a picture?

chaim · December 10, 2002, 01:25 AM

It is probably the Colt Police Positive Special. I have one in .38spl. I think it is their D-frame (that is what the inside of my grips say), but unfortunately I don't think it is quite the same in dimensions as the other D-frames. I say this because I bought some nice Colt wood grips for a D-frame and they won't fit. I'm guessing it is a vintage thing (i.e. D-frames from certain years are probably one size, from another set of years a little different- kinda like the earlier K and L-frame S&Ws having squared butts and later Ks and Ls having rounded butts and RB grips won't fit earlier SB guns).

jar · December 10, 2002, 10:51 AM

Best guess is that it is a Colt Police Positive Special. The big difference is that it is chambered for the 38special instead of the Colt 38 New Police which was the 38S&W.

Is this what it looked like?

ZipTieNinja · December 10, 2002, 08:27 PM

Its the Official Police model. I have not handled it in a while.... I need to though.

It does look like that photo though... almost. I don't know much about revolvers, but I think the cylinder on the one in the picture is shorter...

Anyway, its the Official Police model, and was made in 1938, if that helps...

So what kind of frame is it, and how do classify it? What makes a D frame a D frame, and a J frame a J frame, and a.......?

Jim Watson · December 10, 2002, 08:42 PM

It is an "I" frame. I don't know how they arrive at these factory designations. But the OP is an "I" (so is a Python), the Mk III and IV guns are "J", the Police Positive Special in the picture is a "D" (along with Detective Special and Diamondback). The Single Action Army is a Model P or "P" frame, and the 1911 Government Model is the "O" frame.

You need to specify the actual model to the holster maker, other guns on the same frame size have different barrels and sights which will affect holster fit.

El Paso Saddlery makes period styled holsters.
http://www.epsaddlery.com/html%20doc/mainFrameset.html

bfoster · December 10, 2002, 09:28 PM

Jim,

I hate to disagree, and potentially confuse Zip, but the Official Police is an "E" frame. Specifically, Colt called the Official Police the model E-1.

Zip,

For practical purposes, this isn't a difference that will materially affect fit of this revolver into any common design of holster. I wholeheartedly agree with Jim's endorsement of El Paso Saddlery's products. On a globe full of "world class" products, the work of these folks is simply first rate.

Bob

Jim Watson · December 10, 2002, 11:09 PM

Disagree away, all I had to go by was the Numrich catalog.
"E" it is.

bfoster · December 11, 2002, 08:24 AM

Jim,

I'm aware of what Numrich has printed. This section, used to be "E" & "I" frames when the parts situation was better than it is today.

I'm getting the "E" from the last Colt Dealer Catalog in which Colt offered the Official Police, the 1969 edition. Proof that this is correct is that while most parts for "E" & "I" frame revolvers carried the same part numbers, a few parts like the bolt and the rebound lever did not. Some years back, Colt stopped carrying specific "E" frame parts. Today, to replace an "E" frame rebound lever, for example, an "I" frame part is used, and a bit of "extra" fitting is required. See Kuhnhausen, Colt D.A. Revolvers, page 102 for a discussion of this.

BTW, this is the first catalog in which the Mk III revolvers, the "J" frames were offered.

Bob

Lone Star · December 11, 2002, 08:39 AM

That photo is of a Police Positive, not the Police Positive Special. Look at that short frame.

Quit worrying about the letter name for the frame, and tell the holster maker that you have a Colt on their .41 size frame, and that it's an Official Police. Give the barrel length. If he's a competent holster maker, that's what he needs to know. I second the plug for El Paso Saddlery, and the owner will know what you're talking about. His name is Bob McNellis.

If the gun has grips that are non-standard, that may affect fit if the grip area contacts the holster, as it would on some models.

Lone Star

December 9, 2002, 01:39 PM	#1
ZipTieNinja Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2001 Location: Va, U.S.A. Posts: 147	What Frame Is it? I am going to order a nice leather holster for a loved one, and need to know what style frame the gun is. Its a Colt Police Special, .38 Special. So what kind of frame is it? And maybe more importantly, how is that determined? More modern models with the same frame style? Just in case the gun model is listed, not the style... Thanks for the help. __________________ The Body Will Heal Once The Mind Beleives That Healing Is Possible.

December 10, 2002, 10:51 AM	#4
jar Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2001 Location: Deep South Texas Posts: 1,670	Best guess is that it is a Colt Police Positive Special. The big difference is that it is chambered for the 38special instead of the Colt 38 New Police which was the 38S&W. Is this what it looked like? __________________ To be vintage it's gotta be older than me!

December 10, 2002, 08:27 PM	#5
ZipTieNinja Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2001 Location: Va, U.S.A. Posts: 147	Sorry About That.... Its the Official Police model. I have not handled it in a while.... I need to though. It does look like that photo though... almost. I don't know much about revolvers, but I think the cylinder on the one in the picture is shorter... Anyway, its the Official Police model, and was made in 1938, if that helps... So what kind of frame is it, and how do classify it? What makes a D frame a D frame, and a J frame a J frame, and a.......? __________________ The Body Will Heal Once The Mind Beleives That Healing Is Possible.

December 9, 2002, 02:01 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Problem is, there is no such thing as a Colt Police Special. There are the Police Positive, the Official Police, the Army Special, also the Marshal, Commando, Officer's Model Special, New Police, Border Patrol, Detective Special, Agent, Trooper, Lawman, Peacekeeper, and the Police Python. And those are just the ones with law enforcement related names. What are the barrel markings? Got a picture?

December 10, 2002, 01:25 AM	#3
chaim Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 2,095	It is probably the Colt Police Positive Special. I have one in .38spl. I think it is their D-frame (that is what the inside of my grips say), but unfortunately I don't think it is quite the same in dimensions as the other D-frames. I say this because I bought some nice Colt wood grips for a D-frame and they won't fit. I'm guessing it is a vintage thing (i.e. D-frames from certain years are probably one size, from another set of years a little different- kinda like the earlier K and L-frame S&Ws having squared butts and later Ks and Ls having rounded butts and RB grips won't fit earlier SB guns).

December 10, 2002, 08:42 PM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	It is an "I" frame. I don't know how they arrive at these factory designations. But the OP is an "I" (so is a Python), the Mk III and IV guns are "J", the Police Positive Special in the picture is a "D" (along with Detective Special and Diamondback). The Single Action Army is a Model P or "P" frame, and the 1911 Government Model is the "O" frame. You need to specify the actual model to the holster maker, other guns on the same frame size have different barrels and sights which will affect holster fit. El Paso Saddlery makes period styled holsters. http://www.epsaddlery.com/html%20doc/mainFrameset.html

December 10, 2002, 09:28 PM	#7
bfoster Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: N. of Fords Switch, OK, USA Posts: 297	Jim, I hate to disagree, and potentially confuse Zip, but the Official Police is an "E" frame. Specifically, Colt called the Official Police the model E-1. Zip, For practical purposes, this isn't a difference that will materially affect fit of this revolver into any common design of holster. I wholeheartedly agree with Jim's endorsement of El Paso Saddlery's products. On a globe full of "world class" products, the work of these folks is simply first rate. Bob

December 10, 2002, 11:09 PM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Disagree away, all I had to go by was the Numrich catalog. "E" it is.

December 11, 2002, 08:24 AM	#9
bfoster Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: N. of Fords Switch, OK, USA Posts: 297	Jim, I'm aware of what Numrich has printed. This section, used to be "E" & "I" frames when the parts situation was better than it is today. I'm getting the "E" from the last Colt Dealer Catalog in which Colt offered the Official Police, the 1969 edition. Proof that this is correct is that while most parts for "E" & "I" frame revolvers carried the same part numbers, a few parts like the bolt and the rebound lever did not. Some years back, Colt stopped carrying specific "E" frame parts. Today, to replace an "E" frame rebound lever, for example, an "I" frame part is used, and a bit of "extra" fitting is required. See Kuhnhausen, Colt D.A. Revolvers, page 102 for a discussion of this. BTW, this is the first catalog in which the Mk III revolvers, the "J" frames were offered. Bob

December 11, 2002, 08:39 AM	#10
Lone Star Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2002 Posts: 512	That photo is of a Police Positive, not the Police Positive Special. Look at that short frame. Quit worrying about the letter name for the frame, and tell the holster maker that you have a Colt on their .41 size frame, and that it's an Official Police. Give the barrel length. If he's a competent holster maker, that's what he needs to know. I second the plug for El Paso Saddlery, and the owner will know what you're talking about. His name is Bob McNellis. If the gun has grips that are non-standard, that may affect fit if the grip area contacts the holster, as it would on some models. Lone Star