Another conversation with an anti

[svaz]

Well done ZeSpectre. I wish I could keep stats handy in my head like that (3.5M CCW license holders), but I can't, so thanks to others of you who show how to 'pick apart' the bogus numbers.

[ZeSpectre]

To be honest, I'm not always that quick, but I've been dealing with the "carry in National Parks" issue (the rules change today by the way) so a lot of information is very fresh in my head.

This was an "educational soiree" I was attending with my wife so there were plenty of "fence sitters" listening in so I thought it worth the effort.

[Baba Louie]

This was an "educational soiree" I was attending with my wife so there were plenty of "fence sitters" listening in so I thought it worth the effort. There's the win Ze. Kudos.

While you may not affect the opposition, your presentation, facts and demeanor were probably noted by (hopefully) others who might have been listening in and might, just might, leave an open mind for future intelligent thought.

[357 Python]

Considering that more people are killed each year by drunk drivers than the 139 being quoted, how does the friend like being lumped into a group of killers? Does he drive a motor vehicle? Does he drink alcohol? If he does both could he be a drunk driver just waiting to kill someone one weekend night?

[k9cougar]

I used to be one of those anti gun folks. I wouldn't allow guns in the house. more people are shot with their own guns then strangers. No one will ever threaten us. You've heard it all.

About 8 months ago my wife left me a voice mail stating that a stranger was in our back yard (after climbing a 5 foot locked fence) and that she had called the police. I went through 20 minutes of pure panic trying to get hold of her. (Which coincidentally is how long it took for the police to arrive). The guy didn't try to enter the house but the lesson was learned. Had he tried what would my wife had done? It was 20 minutes of pure panic. I was out of town and my wife was defenseless. For 20 minutes the only thing that went through my mind was why didn't I listen to her plea to get a gun. Long story, short ending. We new have a revolver for her and semi-auto for me. We have taken lessons, joined a local gun club, have CCW and are proud of it. I love shooting and even joined a gun forum My guess is that most anti gun folks have never had a situation arrive where they have been threatened. I hope they never are threatened but I bet it would convert a majority of them.

[Standing Wolf]

Well done, k9cougar! Better to learn from a scare than a tragedy.

[mesabi]

I believe you cannot argue with someone who has already made up their mind. Once I realized that, I know longer hold arguements about politics or gun control.

As soon as I can get the time, I plan on getting my CCW. I feel I have more than enough justification in an arguement with an anti. I have had my hosue attempted to be broken into. Another case was a stabbing that occured at a vehicle that broke down on the side of the road, the guy with the knife ended up stabbing his friend mistakingly after lunging at the intended victim.

[Mike Irwin]

Carl Rowan was a big anti-gun hypocrite.

He MAY have gotten his gun from his son, who was an FBI agent and who was an NRA member, IIRC.

[CobraCommander]

k9cougar, welcome to TFL.

I agree with you, it seems like many people don't take an interest in personal security until something happens to them or a loved one.

It's good that, in addition to buying a weapon, you are taking an interest in becoming proficient. Too many people consider a gun a talisman and neglect instruction and practice.

[Wait, I'm Reloadin']

How did Rowan not get condemned just for owning a gun in D.C. ?

[Uncle Buck]

I can never remember all the numbers you guys quoted here but I did remember the argument about the more people killed with cars than firearms.

I do not think I have ever changed anyone's mind on guns or concealed weapon permits, but then again, very rarely will I associate with people who do not at least know something about guns.

A good point to this is that my sister-in-law no longer comes around. (Because he has guns in his house!) I do miss seeing my nephew, but his father sneaks him up to the house often and we get to do some shooting.
Did I mention my sister in law no longer comes to my house?

[ZeSpectre]

The thing is that I'll have these conversations mostly to let the moonbats know that if they are going to sling around general accusations (that all gun owners are criminals and so forth) they don't get to do it without consequence and someone can and will call them out on their slander. This has tended to have a pretty significant "chilling" effect on that sort of behavior (at least in my presence) because a lot of those types are pretty sassy about running their mouths when they think they are surrounded by like minded folks, but usually have little spine to stand up to an actual opponent.

Interestingly enough (and this has happened several times) within a few days of such a public conversation I frequently get some folks "coming out of the closet" about an interest in firearms. It usually takes a day or two and they usually want to keep their interest "discretely low key" because of their social group, but each time that happens I consider it a victory.

[NJgunowner]

There is a saying a friend of mine is fond of...

"Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience"

I find it true in most cases

[Uncle Billy]

Arguing using reasoned, supported facts and numbers, with someone whose position is entirely based on feelings and emotions really IS like arguing with a turnip, as someone wrote here. I think most anti-gun people are "turnip-minded".

Everyone has feelings, which come up from inside all on their own, like the cards dealt in a poker game- no one gets to pick them. If feelings and emotions aren't filtered through an objective, reasoning, logic-driven thought process that is absent any bigotry, prejudice, preconceptions, hatred, fear- in short, emotions- before they get manifested or before they become opinions or beliefs, good sense, accuracy and credibility are very apt to be lost.

Trying to reason with someone who is voicing their feelings without any such filtering (they are intellectually lazy) is pointless, because what they stand for came from feelings, not thoughts, and as such aren't built on objective facts and reason and can't be informed by them. Debate with someone who operates under the tenet of "You can't convince me with facts and logic, my mind is made up already without them" is running on just their emotions, and so they are alligators- all mouth and no ears- and are without value as reasoning contributors to the discussion and as responsible citizens and voters.

One of the most serious flaws of too many citizens in this country is this absence of objective, reasoning, emotion-free thinking in what they come to believe and stand for.

[Skans]

I've always been currious about anti-gunners who are males. I can understand some females just being scared of firearms and therefore not liking them.

But, with men, it's a little different. Men tend to gravitate toward mechanical things, things that go fast, tools, etc. I reckon that some antis don't like guns because their country, state, city, spouse or background makes it difficult to impossible to own one, therefore not wanting others to own what they can't.

I suppose that there are others who disslike guns because of some personal bad experience - like close friend or relative committing suicide or being murdred with one.

But, I really don't quite understand where men who are antis are coming from, who have a hatred of guns or disslike of those who own guns that don't fall into one of the above catagories?

[Doc Intrepid]

Originally Posted by k9cougar

"I hope they never are threatened but I bet it would convert a majority of them."

The majority of US citizens, anti's or not, have never actually been personally in extreme fear for their lives. It isn't something that most civilians are ever confronted with.

But for those who have been there - it is often a very profound experience.

It makes a believer out of them!

I also am of the opinion that most anti's might re-consider their convictions if it were they themselves, or their children, etc., who were directly threatened.

Perhaps it is true that an "anti-gunner" is merely someone who has not yet ever been stalked, raped, beaten, or been convinced that they were about to be murdered. Not that you wish these things upon them, but they tend to clarify and focus personal priorities in a very sudden and compelling manner...

[ZeSpectre]

But, I really don't quite understand where men who are antis are coming from, who have a hatred of guns or dislike of those who own guns that don't fall into one of the above categories?

I'm not trying to speak for all, but some of the people you mention hate gun owners because we're a threat to their plans. Some hate us because we highlight their own cowardice or unwillingness to take on the burden of protecting themselves and their families.

[Skans]

Some hate us because we highlight their own cowardice or unwillingness to take on the burden of protecting themselves and their families.

Good point. I'm going to have to think on that one some more.

[Guy B. Meredith]

It is interesting to see how often anti gun males (usually in follow up comments to a news article) carry on about the firearms owner needing the steel penis or whatever. They sometimes seemed absolutely obsessed with making it a sexual issue.

[Sefner]

Originally Posted by Guy B. Meredith

It is interesting to see how often anti gun males (usually in follow up comments to a news article) carry on about the firearms owner needing the steel penis or whatever. They sometimes seemed absolutely obsessed with making it a sexual issue.

I don't have to compensate for my steel penis...



Yeah, compensator.

On topic: anyone making it that kind of issue has other issues. Maybe they need to compensate for them. OK I'm done.

EDIT: That's not my gun, just a random picture of a compensator.

[thallub]

Years ago I had debates with antis. Don't think I ever convinced one of the error of his/her ways. Debating an anti-gunner is like wrestling with a big boar hog in his pen. You get hog crap and mud all over and the hog just loves it.

[Skans]

Debating an anti-gunner is like wrestling with a big boar hog in his pen. You get hog crap and mud all over and the hog just loves it.

Not always. I pick and choose which antis to debate with. I don't waste my time with those that love to hate guns and gun owners. But, there are those that, for whatever reason are indifferent toward guns, but on principle think that guns should be restricted. I've discussed guns with a couple of antis that came around - generally engineering types, who you know really should like guns, but for don't. They're too much like me - they are drawn to the mechanics of the gun. One, contrary to his wife's extreme anti-gun views, acknowledged that he really would like a .22 rifle for plinking......that's how it starts.

[mack59]

The key to dealing with an anti, as someone already pointed out is to not argue with them, because even if you win the argument, you lose - those of you who are married know what that means. The key is to listen to what they are saying and not to focus on rebutting them or winning a debate.

People, as has also been said also in this thread, often have strong opinions, which means that they have strong feelings and beliefs about guns and gun ownership. The only way to reach them is to first understand and go to where they are at. It won't work if you are dealing with them in a group or in front of a group - one on one is the best way.

First encourage them to speak, don't judge them or their opinion, if they feel you are doing that they will become defensive and you won't be able to connect at all. Listen to not just the words they say but also try to hear the feelings and understand the beliefs that lead to those feelings. The first task is to genuinely want to understand them, to give them respect as an individual (whether or not you agree with anything they say). If you communicate that first and foremost they will really talk to you and you both will avoid just talking at each other.

Ask them questions about their feelings about guns and why they feel that way. Then be willing to respectfully share your feelings - i.e. "I understand you don't feel this way but I feel that ....." - sharing in a nonconfrontational way your beliefs and feelings. Give them a chance to respond and again listen to what they say and so on.

You aren't going to change their mind in a single such conversation - but you open a door - they remember you really listened to them and treated them with respect - and because of that they may remember some of the things you said and maybe even think about them. Over time you can win their confidence and maybe even respect, then they will listen to what you have to say as something real from someone that they respect. You may - this is a judgement thing after some time - invite them to go shooting.

You see - feelings can be changed if someone becomes open to examining their beliefs - because it is their beliefs, rational or not, on which they base their judgements - what they decide is good or bad, right or wrong. One can't force someone or argue someone into changing their beliefs - they have to choose to do that - you have to lead them to the point of wanting to make that choice.

It does take time and effort to do this and you have to be secure enough to allow them their space and give them respect - if you can't or don't want to that is fine - but don't expect people to change because you brilliantly argued them into a corner and humiliated or ridiculed them in front of their peers. I know that when someone is saying something totally ignorant about something you deeply care about and/or is acting disrepectful and derisive towards you it is very easy to just let them have it and put them in their place and it can feel good to do so - but just recognize that if you do so you aren't going to change anything - it's a choice you make - just recognize the choice.

Sorry for such a long post - it's just that I worked for a lot of years with addicts and alcoholics and from that I know that you can lead people to change. You just have to learn to take yourself and your ego out of it. I never told someone they were an alcoholic or addict or that they had to change - or that they were wrong or irrational - I listened and talked to them about their beliefs and feelings and reflected/shared my own beliefs and feelings. I remember the best advice I ever got - when I started out from an old school counselor - he said if you can't respect the person you are working with then you have no business working with them. I'm a christian so I always remembered that everyone is a child of God and that he loves them even as he loves me - that everyone is someones son or daughter - someones father or mother.

[Ridge_Runner_5]

Tell em "Some people just need killin"

[waterfowler]

When an Anti is in trouble one day held down by a gunman, then i bet he wished he would have a gun. "guns dont kill people, people kill people". Are they going to try to outlaw knives next because people are killed with them.