Would you like a Browning 1911 .32 ACP?

[ttarp]

Colt 1903 re-release shows how expensive it would be to have a accurate copy

That was intentionally a small run for collectors and priced accordingly, if it were in fact a re-release, we would likely see prices similar to the Colt Mustang range.

Cost is simply not an issue, yes there wouldn't be as large a profit margin compared to plastic models, but the real reason bringing old designs back won't happen is lack of interest.

[SansSouci]

Nope. A .32 Auto ain't good for smallest, timid field mice.

[kannonk]

"However, for those who are really recoil sensitive, and for some reason don't want to learn to get over it, the 32 acp has appeal."

This makes sense if you look at the following quote from Brass Fetcher http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns.../32%20ACP.html

"...I strongly recommend a 32 ACP mousegun for a casual shooter looking for a CCW handgun. It may be appealing to go to the 380 ACP but it takes moderate practice to be able to use such a gun with any skill due to the recoil."

Although he mentions mouseguns, my idea is that medium-sized .32 ACP handguns are more pleasant to shoot at a firing range according to a number of messages I've read here (and accurate). Also, given a lot of people have a busy schedule (work, groceries etc.), you know a lot of people won't bother going to the range to practice often. So, they may not be as ready to shoot even a .380 ACP if they have to. I can also add if someone really had a need for a defensive round in .32 ACP, there is still the Xtreme Cavitator from Underwood.

[Cheapshooter]

my idea is that medium-sized .32 ACP handguns are more pleasant to shoot at a firing range

But 22 rimfire is even more so, and at a much lower cost.

given a lot of people have a busy schedule (work, groceries etc.), you know a lot of people won't bother going to the range to practice often. So, they may not be as ready to shoot even a .380 ACP if they have to.

Which makes no sense at all as being a reason for a mid sized 32. It does point out the need to shoot on a regular basis.

[ThomasT]

Bicycle projects? How old are you?

Cheapshooter said: Think everybody has been waiting for that question

Cheapshooter I don't think the OP is going to answer. I suspect we are replying to someone way too young to even own a gun.

[Cheapshooter]

Think you are exactly right ratshooter. Speing break, no homework, amd lots of time to spend looking stuff up on the computer, and daydream about improbabilities in order to sound knowlegable. Think his time would be better spent in his dad's garage putting those bicycles that Santa brought him together.

[kannonk]

Maybe some of you think I'm young because I asked some uninformed questions but not everyone starts out as an expert the first day they look at something. Just because I asked some uninformed questions doesn't mean I'm a complete doorknob, OK? I was still trying to answer comments from the third page when people asked my age. But these questions made me almost re-question my original comments. But I can't completely disagree with my original idea; that less recoil might give you an advantage. First, at a firing range to practice, second in a moment of sheer panic.

Let's address the first issue. I've read comments that in terms of "comfort", some women even men sometimes preferred a .32 even compared to a .380. And sometimes that applied to the same type of gun (like the Walther PP although that .380 is known as snappy).

And on the second issue, imagine anyone in a moment of sheer panic where they're in a home invasion. Even with someone who's had moderate practice. If you barely have the time to grab the gun, will the added recoil of a 9mm (or above) make it easier to concentrate? The gun jumping up and down with the louder noise may not help. And to avoid loading issues, someone could always add an Underwood Xtreme Cavitator on top (or flat nose FMJ) and the rest of the magazine in round nose FMJ. (Actually, different brands may cause rim lock in a .32 ACP but if it's only for one cartridge on top it may be less of a problem.)

Besides, I just thought about something. Let's look at the foot/pounds of energy levels of different brands in .32 ACP: PMC Bronze FMJ 126 ft/lbs, Geco FMJ 158 ft/lbs, Fiocchi FMJ 166 ft/lbs and Sellier & Bellot 177 ft/lbs. From 126 to 177 that's a 40% difference. I've seen 270 to 340 ft/lbs of energy difference in 9mm. That's only 25%. So, with a .32 you have a larger variation in energy levels which means you can choose how much recoil you want. As a matter of fact, Buffalo Bore .32 ACP has 220 ft/lbs of energy. That's almost a 75% difference.

And I also thought of another genius idea. lol what if a company came out with .32 ACP-shaped jelly beans and Easter chocolate-shaped handguns?

[ThomasT]

And on the second issue, imagine anyone in a moment of sheer panic where they're in a home invasion. Even with someone who's had moderate practice. If you barely have the time to grab the gun, will the added recoil of a 9mm (or above) make it easier to concentrate?

Thankfully I have never been in a home invasion. But if I am ever in one I hope to God I am NOT armed with a 32acp. Yes the 9mm and on up thank you.

And I also thought of another genius idea. lol what if a company came out with .32 ACP-shaped jelly beans and Easter chocolate-shaped handguns?

Its comments like this that have us wondering about your age.

Most of us here are more than willing to help a new guy. We were all new at one time. But I think a lot are scratching their heads trying to figure out the obsession with the 32acp. Sure its light recoiling but most guns are tolerable with just a little practice. I have one 32, a Walther PP but I have no desire to carry it or keep it stashed for HD. I have several drawers full of better choices.

[mavracer]

Just because I asked some uninformed questions doesn't mean I'm a complete doorknob, OK?

No but willfully sticking to your uninformed opinions raises serious questions and has us wondering if our time wouldn't be equally well spent informing the doorknob

[ThomasT]

^^^ I wish I would have said that.^^^

[Cheapshooter]

^^^
X3
Being uninformed, and asking questions that obviously show it is one thing. Happens a lot here with young, inexperienced new shooters.
Continuing to insist your pipe (or bong) dreams about influencing manufactutes to make some sort of super round out of the 32acp is needed is a bit below the doorknob!
32acp is what it is. Low powered, better than a sharp stick for self defemse, too costly, and difficult to reload for what you get at the range.
Some may like it because they don't like recoil, but really, when was the last time you heard of someone being perminantly injured by shooting a 380, or 9x19 Luger?

[ricko]

Do they have BB pistols in Canada? They're less lethal than a .380 and generally have very low recoil. I have a Daisy 15XT that's basically an 80% scale 1911, and it's very pleasant to shoot.

[ThomasT]

Ricko I have two of those. The first I found in the middle of the road. I guess some kid laid it on the bumper of his dads truck and it fell off. My youngest son fell in love with it so I gave it to him. Then one day at Academy Sports they had them for just over $30 so I bought a second one.

They make great trainers for practicing with striker fired autos like the S&W SW9VE I own. And I think they are actually a copy of a Star BM9. I owned one of those and traded it away for a Taurus 22 mag revolver. I should have kept the Star.

The Daisey 15XT would be perfect for what the OP wants. Light almost nonexistant recoil for those with arthritus and metal plates in their hands. I bet even Edward Scissor Hands could shoot this gun.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by ratshooter

And I think they are actually a copy of a Star BM9.

I'm pretty certain they're modeled on the 1911. The double diamond grips are a clue.

I have one, too. Nice, fun, inexpensive little guns.

[kannonk]

"Why?"

The reason why I said there's a glimmer of hope for the .32 ACP is because some people said one of the reasons why they wouldn't consider the .32 ACP is because .380 ammo is cheaper. Well, if the .32 ACP became less expensive if it becomes popular then it may have a chance.

"Why would anyone undertake such a project?"

Why would anyone want to make the .32 ACP cartridge into a rimless cartridge like the .380 ACP to eliminate rim lock? Well, because it would eliminate one of the only arguments against the .32 ACP even it it's a rare occurence.

[Cheapshooter]

The first I found in the middle of the road. I guess some kid laid it on the bumper of his dads truck and it fell off

Maybe it fell off his bicycle. Were you in Canada?

[reddog81]

At $11 per box .32 isn't all that expensive. Also rimlock isn't that big of a deal. How many times have you experienced it? I never have and I've put thousands of rounds down range.

.32 isn't seen as sufficient for self defense. A decent quality .32 will cost the same as a decent quality .380 or 9mm. Heck even .380 has become less popular as small 9mm have become more common. Less powerful larger guns are the opposite direction that he market is moving towards. Over the last couple of years the compact and smaller 9mm's have become very popular.

.32's can be great guns and enjoyable to shoot. A mid-sized .32 would be a good starter gun or fun range gun but that market is dominated by .22lr and at .$05 per round .32 ACP is never going to compete. When it comes self defense guns or rounds the vast majority of people bypass right over the .32.

[ThomasT]

I'm pretty certain they're modeled on the 1911. The double diamond grips are a clue.

Maybe so. But when I had the Star I could lay it on top and they were a match in size. But anyway the little airgun is just so much fun to shoot and I can shoot it in my backyard and nobody knows any better. Its great practice. I am a big believer in an airgun for practice. I have shot thousands of shots with air rifles and pistols and never left the yard to do it.

[Cheapshooter]

ratshooter, I think my basement/backyard practice handgun might be somewhat of a classic, or collector. S&W 78G. A CO2 airgun pistol with design features very close to the S&W 41 target pistol. They made them in the 70's, and I think I paid less than 50 bucks for it back then.
Across the basement accuracy is excellent. Safe, quiet, and reliable. Now, if I could only figure outhow to make it recoil more, like a real gun in 45acp, or 10MM.

[kannonk]

".32 isn't seen as sufficient for self defense."

Let's look at some details. The .380 ACP bullet diameter is exactly 9mm. The .32 ACP bullet diameter is 7.94mm. That's only a difference of 1.06mm. And the difference between Sellier & Bellot FMJ in .32 ACP (at 177 ft/lbs) and Sellier & Bellot FMJ in .380 ACP (at 186 ft/lbs). That's only a difference of 9 ft/lbs of energy.

That means there's essentially very little difference between the two which means the .32 ACP could get the job done WITHOUT over-doing it. Why?
The following video shows .32 ACP in round nose FJM and Underwood Xtreme Cavitator. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf-IF1emoJI It shows just enough penetration with the Xtreme Cavitator and no over-penetration with the FMJ. This means the .32 ACP is superior to the .380 ACP.

One video on Youtube shows the .380 ACP Xtreme Cavitator EXTREMELY over-penetrating to 27 inches. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PDQcE-1T40
Remember the .32 ACP Xtreme Cavitator was in the "right zone". And now for an example of over-penetration with a FMJ round and flat nose in .380 ACP: Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbSLqdiX_bA

And since the .32 ACP can be used in competition pistols that means as they said in My Cousin Vinny it can be "dead-on-balls accurate". Just like my scientific point of view is "dead-on-balls accurate". "Ideal" penetration with a .32 ACP Xtreme Cavitator without excessive over-penetration with a .32 ACP FJM round nose. It's that simple.

[carguychris]

^^^ Lessee if I've got this straight... your initial assertion is that there's very little difference between .32 and .380, although .32 is smaller in diameter and less powerful, albeit not by much.

Then you assert that .32 is decidedly superior, based on tests of ONE type of novelty ammunition?!

Ever heard of the Texas sharpshooter fallacy? (It has less to do with actual shooting than you may initially think. )

Originally Posted by kannonk

And since the .32 ACP can be used in competition pistols that means as they said in My Cousin Vinny it can be "dead-on-balls accurate".

Scroll back to my very first post in this thread. I believe you are confusing .32 ACP with .32 S&W Long. The two rounds are totally incompatible in an autoloader.

More importantly, IMHO competition-grade accuracy is superfluous in a defensive pistol. That, and any observed accuracy difference between similar pistols in .32 and .380 (such as a Beretta 81 and 84) is more likely due to differing production tolerances than any inherent quality of either cartridge.

Just as an aside, the main reason for the superior accuracy of .32 S&W Long is the ability to use soft lead semi-wadcutter or hollow-base wadcutter bullets, which cannot be used in a standard .32 ACP pistol.

Originally Posted by mavracer

...willfully sticking to your uninformed opinions raises serious questions and has us wondering if our time wouldn't be equally well spent informing the doorknob

I've been more tolerant than most here, but I'm just about ready to check out as well.

[mavracer]

Ever heard of the Texas sharpshooter fallacy? (It has less to do with actual shooting than you may initially think. )

I had not until now, it would seem to be the cornerstone of any good caliber debate in which someone declares a clear winner.

[reddog81]

If .32 ACP is superior to .380 due to its lack of penetration I'm assuming you believe it is also superior to every other caliber?

I feel like I'm in a high school debate class where one side knows he has a losing argument but can't let it go.

Sure I'd like a 1911 in 32 ACP, but there's no way i'd pay what it'd cost to make it and i'd probably be more likely to buy it than 95% of people on this forum. I'd like a 1911 in every caliber possible, but that doesn't mean you'll have any luck getting them manufactured for a reasonable price.

[Cheapshooter]

Just like my scientific point of view is "dead-on-balls accurate". "Ideal" penetration with a .32 ACP Xtreme Cavitator without excessive over-penetration with a .32 ACP FJM round nose. It's that simple.

So, is that what you carry?

[DaleA]

So, is that what you carry?

Well, in case anyone's forgotten, or it got lost in the clutter, Kannonk already mentioned this:

I'll confess I only shot air guns years ago and only shot a .22 revolver once.

I said I'm Canadian. This means I have to take two courses just to handle a handgun and I said in a previous message that my situation is complicated.