Scenario 5

Doug.38PR · June 15, 2007, 11:37 AM

Okay my turn,

Suppose you are driving down the interstate in the country. Suddenly up ahead you see cars swerving around, one or two scattering off highway. On the right just ahead of this commotion see a state trooper's car behind a car that had been pulled over. The state trooper is pinned down behind his car by a man from the car he pulled over with a semi auto rifle who pinned him down and fled up into the trees up the hill beside the cars and is now firing down on the troopers car and at cars passing by.
Most of the cars are zipping past. The trooper can't get to his radio. You have a handgun on you and a rifle and/or shotgun on the backseat or trunk of your car.
What do you do?

Drive on and say a prayer for him?

Drive on, call 911 and then say a prayer for him?

Pull over before or after you pass and render what assistance you can?

Prophet · June 15, 2007, 11:46 AM

I would first use my truck as rolling cover for the officer to get to his radio, I would then get my rifle and give it to the officer if he didn't have sufficant enough firepower. Then I'd drive a ways and be a good witness.

Skunk · June 15, 2007, 02:07 PM

I wouldn't even get close to that kind of action.

I'd stop way short of the incident, maybe even back up a little to be sure I was out of range.

Then I'd call 911 and report what was happening and where it was taking place.

I would especially take the retreat actions if my wife or kids where with me.

Sorry, I'm just not the hero type.

Skunk

Samurai · June 15, 2007, 02:14 PM

I think that a forum which even suggests that such a thing would be even the slightest bit probable would make good ammunition for an argument in favor of complete abolishment of auto rifles.

That said, I'd probably bail out. Me with a gun, ready, and the assailant with a gun, ready, is a fair fight. I make it a point NEVER to fight a fair fight. (See signature-line quote #1.)

DesertDawg · June 16, 2007, 07:55 AM

First of all, you'd have to have some PHENOMINAL powers of observation to make that many assessments while driving at even a "reasonable" speed!

What I would do will probably differ greatly to what others might do, but that's because I'm a retired LEO.

I'd pull as close to the Trooper's car as possible, duck down and exit my vehicle. I'd then yell to the Trooper that I am an off-duty officer, and if he acknowledged that, I'd tell him that I will lay down some "cover fire" in the trees, so that he might be able to get to his radio.

Next would be to try to make contact with the police on my cell phone. Why did I choose to go to the cell phone AFTER trying to help the Trooper get to his radio? Because his radio is "instant" communications to the police, instead of the "delayed" response through using the phone.

Hey, if my truck gets a few bullet holes, I'd just send the bill to the police agency! My bet is that they'd be glad to pay for the repairs! Personally, I'd only be interested in saving the life of the Trooper and the other motorists.

Donovan655 · June 16, 2007, 08:35 AM

If this is in the day and you can see what is going on...

i'd floor it past the scene and duck for a bit. perhaps this is enough of a distraction for the officer to get to his radio.

then i'd stop and render assistance with whatever i was carrying at the time.

if it is one guy with an AR then he will have his hands full trying to shoot at two people with pistols.

mlandman · June 16, 2007, 04:30 PM

Many rifle rounds will not even be slowed down by the sheet metal of your vehicle. The LEO is "pinned down" but is presumably behind something hard (engine?). Call in the cavalry.

BTW... many LEOs have a portable radio with them.

Powderman · June 16, 2007, 05:41 PM

If I have a rifle, I pull to within rifle range. If I can see the action, the gunman's in rifle range.

Get out my rifle, find the gunman, and make his life hell.

If it's a shotgun, and the gunman is within 75 yards or so, come up to the trooper's vehicle. Get shotgun if accessible, provide cover fire for the officer.

If all I have it a pistol, then I'll be putting some area fire toward the gunman. If I can see him (or her) I can try to apply a bit of Kentucky windage.

Driving on and leaving another person, whoever it is, in danger like that is not in my genetic makeup.

Driving on and leaving a brother or sister officer in danger is NOT going to happen. Period.

Oh, and by the way--from the cop's standpoint--for all of you who said, "I'll drive on, I'm not a hero", remember that the next time you hear of an officer hurt or killed answering a call for assistance.

DEFINITELY remember it before you even think about calling one of us because you hear strange sounds in the night.

If you will NOT help your fellow man in his (or her) time of greatest need, and you carry a firearm--well then, you're worth used chewing tobacco to me. If that offends some of you "chairborne rangers", tough. Do yourself a favor--stop carrying a lethal weapon before you hurt yourself.

Quote:

I think that a forum which even suggests that such a thing would be even the slightest bit probable would make good ammunition for an argument in favor of complete abolishment of auto rifles.

Look up the Norco Bank Robbery, and more recently, the Hollywood shoot-out. It's more than possible--it has happened, and will happen again.

ohioleadslinger · June 16, 2007, 06:55 PM

In Ohio if a LEO asks for help you are bound by law to do so.

Now if he doesn't ask well then you very well may be arrested for spitting lead at the nut job.
I doubt if that would be the case here in Ohio, but in CA or NY or Ill?????? Those people hate us gun toters, and the powers that be in those states would rather let an LEO die a terrifying horrible slow painful death than admit they are wrong.

jfrey123 · June 16, 2007, 07:41 PM

Option 4: Laughs when he reads another "What If..." posted by the mind provoking Doug.38PR...

Doug.38PR · June 19, 2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Oh, and by the way--from the cop's standpoint--for all of you who said, "I'll drive on, I'm not a hero", remember that the next time you hear of an officer hurt or killed answering a call for assistance.

DEFINITELY remember it before you even think about calling one of us because you hear strange sounds in the night.

If you will NOT help your fellow man in his (or her) time of greatest need, and you carry a firearm--well then, you're worth used chewing tobacco to me. If that offends some of you "chairborne rangers", tough. Do yourself a favor--stop carrying a lethal weapon before you hurt yourself.

well said

Tanzer · June 19, 2007, 12:56 PM

I know my limits, and value my life. I'd be scared as heck, but in no way does that cop need to tell me that he/she needs help, and I could never live with having not done what I could.
1. No "action movie hero stuff", but I'd lay down whatever ground cover I could. Being alone would be an advantage because with my wife/kids in the car I'd have to be COMPLETELY sure they were out of harm's way even if that means jumping in the ditch and having them back up 200yds. - I'm sure the cop would want that. This is step one because that radio will get things moving a lot faster than my cell phone.
2. Depends on results of step 1. Use cell if necessary, follow cop's request (unless it's "go get them"

) I really think the cop wants as little help from me as possible. What he/she wants is a lot of help from colleagues. Heck, I could screw things up, or get hurt for which they'd be answering. If I'm told to get lost, I'm gone. I'll call in & answer questions later.
3. Seek fresh undergarments. I'm no hero either, but no way am I gonna stand by or run if it's a good guy pinned down. I'd be good enough at grazing fire with anything I own. That's about the best (and the least) I could do for you LEO's out there.

This is of course assuming that it IS A COP! The gang-bangers can kill themselves off! If the guy is hiding behind a purple Honda with spinners on the hubcaps and green neon lights under the car, he's on his own. As for in between - unknown good or bad guy, tough call. Are there kids in the car? etc.. DEFINATELY cell phone first - frantic emphasis! Needs assessment at the scene, and not part of this thread.

Skunk · June 19, 2007, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Oh, and by the way--from the cop's standpoint--for all of you who said, "I'll drive on, I'm not a hero", remember that the next time you hear of an officer hurt or killed answering a call for assistance.

Oh Please, Mr. Powderman, don't use the old guilt trip to make your point. From the parent's standpoint, my first and foremost responsibility is to my children. That would be the day that I'd drag my little 4 year old daughter into a gun fight that she has nothing to do with.

Quote:

If you will NOT help your fellow man in his (or her) time of greatest need, and you carry a firearm--well then, you're worth used chewing tobacco to me. If that offends some of you "chairborne rangers", tough. Do yourself a favor--stop carrying a lethal weapon before you hurt yourself.

I read all the replies prior to yours and not one person said they wouldn't help in some manner. So what are you bitching about? Nobody asked you to become a policeman and you above all must know the hazards of your job. Maybe you should stop carrying a lethal weapon and a badge before you hurt yourself. And if that offends you, "tough."

Skunk

Doug.38PR · June 19, 2007, 01:42 PM

Skunk,
What Powderman says rings true of LEO and non-LEO alike. What if PM wasn't a policeman? What if we had no policeman? Then what? What if we didn't have anybody, a sheriff, a possee, or anything to enforce law? How would we catch criminals? Somebody has to do it. We talk in this forum all the time about how "we can't depend on the police to protect us" well neither should you expect them to always be able to protect each other. If you don't expect police backup to get there on time for you when a burglar breaks in, why should you expect police backup to get there in time to save him (or anyone)?
Anyone who would abandon or ignore someone in need is indeed a worthless human being. We are morally responsible for each other. While you are not legally obligated to put your life on the line, you still might very well have a moral obligation to help.
That's not to say you should put your 4 year old in the line of fire (and PM I'm sure didn't mean for you to either), but it does say that you should render aid if she is not with you or if you can let her off down the road before or after you get to the point of shooting or get her to a point of safety before helping. If you can't do that, then don't engage.
I read of an incident (admittedly 3rd hand) in another forum some time ago where an incident such as I describe in this thread did happen. I think it was a Texas DPS trooper who was pinned down behind his car by a man with a rifle. He couldn't get to his radio. A man with his little boy drove by in a pickup, pulled over 100 yards down the road, got the little boy down on the floor, took his deer rifle and took out the shooter saving the trooper's life.

Powderman · June 19, 2007, 01:59 PM

Doug, IIRC it was a hunter with a .243 rifle, and I think the boy was a bit older--not quite a youngun, but still not an adult yet. I do remember the story, but not where it happened.

Skunk, I remember a time when--not too long ago--I would have been quite upset by your remarks. I would have responded in kind, and a big flame war would have begun.

To tell the truth, I have to thank you--and other posters of your mindset--for teaching me an invaluable lesson. That lesson is this--that when the chips are down and it's time to put up or shut up, that there are darned few--REALLY few--people who will step into the breach.

I have learned that there are people who will hide behind anything to keep from stepping forward.

I have learned that there are people who talk a great fight when talking about carrying guns.

I have learned that I can count on brother or sister officers for immediate assistance--but with the general public, it's a crap shoot.

There are still some folks out there who will not stand idly by, but will get involved. To them, I say thanks.

To the rest of you, I say God bless, and I hope you enjoy a full, non-troubled life.

As for me? I'll just keep doing what I'm sworn to do, and what's in my genetic makeup anyway, thank you very much.

See y'all later. Think I'll change my signature, too.

Skunk · June 19, 2007, 03:09 PM

Quote:

What Powderman says rings true of LEO and non-LEO alike. What if PM wasn't a policeman? What if we had no policeman? Then what? What if we didn't have anybody, a sheriff, a possee, or anything to enforce law? How would we catch criminals? Somebody has to do it.

Doug, I have no disrespect for police officers. In fact I appreciate them very much. Without them we would probably be living in a military state.

Quote:

Skunk, I remember a time when--not too long ago--I would have been quite upset by your remarks. I would have responded in kind, and a big flame war would have begun.

Well, I respect your self control there Powderman. After all you are a policeman and should set a good example for the rest of us. Kind of curious why it is OK if you throw flames at us but we shouldn't throw a few flames right back at you. The original post asked for our opinions and I gave mine. Yet in your opinion I'm nothing more than "used chewing tobacco."

Quote:

To tell the truth, I have to thank you-and other posters of your mindset-for teaching me an invaluable lesson. That lesson is this-that when the chips are down and it's time to put up or shut up, that there are darned few-REALLY few-people who will step into the breach.

See now you are in fact talking in reality. I think that is one of the most intelligent statements that I've read so far in the tactics and training forum. Contrary to what you read on some of these scenario threads, I would agree that there really are "darned few" people who would be willing to step up into the face of a real gun fight, even if they had a gun. I feel it would be wise to take that consideration with you in every aspect of your job.

Quote:

I have learned that there are people who talk a great fight when talking about carrying guns.

Now you you got it! Especially on the Internet! Just read some of the posts on the other scenario threads, right here on TFL forum. It's easy to talk a great game, but just wait until the bullets come zinging over their heads. I pray that those Internet rambos never have to face a gun fight in real life.

Quote:

I have learned that I can count on brother or sister officers for immediate assistance-but with the general public, it's a crap shoot.

What else would you expect? In most cases, the general public are not even supposed to get involved. If everyone was supposed to or was meant to do police work, we all would have went to the academy and joined the force.

Quote:

As for me? I'll just keep doing what I'm sworn to do, and what's in my genetic makeup anyway, thank you very much.

No, thank you very much. It takes a very special, dedicated person, to be a lawman. I personally thank you for your service and for doing the job that would make most of us shudder at just the idea of it. I also very sincerely hope that you are never harmed in the line of duty.

Skunk

Doug.38PR · June 19, 2007, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Doug, I have no disrespect for police officers. In fact I appreciate them very much. Without them we would probably be living in a military state.

Well, I would argue quite the opposite. Police departments are a realtively new development (if one can call it that.) Let me pause for a minute and say that I am not trying to show disrespect for the man out in a patrol car who goes down dark alleys, handles crazed bums and loonys on the street corners, pulls over drug traffickers that might have a knife in their pocket or a gun in the compartment ready for use.
Having said that, I would say the creation of police departments and they way they have grown in power and means over the past 100 years have taken us that much closer to a military state as many of the opponents feared 150 years ago. It's not the men in uniform I am attacking but the policy's that have been put in place and a mentality that has developed over time.

I.E.:

Quote:

What else would you expect? In most cases, the general public are not even supposed to get involved. If everyone was supposed to or was meant to do police work, we all would have went to the academy and joined the force.

Your own words illustrate what I am talking about. This idea that only the police can do it. Only the police should do it. The police are supposed to protect us. We should stay out of it and let and let them handle all of life's problems so we can be safe.

Hence we have people who would leave Powderman or some other policeman holding on with his teeth against an armed felon to carry the load while we ride the wagon.

150 years ago or even 50 years ago we had a sheriff or a constable or a watchman and maybe a few deputies who would patrol streets and keep law and order. It was almost a duty of every male citizen to come to the aid of someone else in need if there was a crime in progress. Hence the concept of posses. Nobody back then though "the police are supposed to protect us." And the very nature of who we (that is we on TFL and in the world of RTKBA) are ultimatly goes against this "police protect us" line of thinking. We are the ones advocating RTKBA. "A gun in the hand beats a cop on the phone" as I think BillCA's line goes. Well, police are people too, why should we expect any more or less from them?

Tanzer · June 19, 2007, 06:15 PM

It's a crap shoot no matter how you look at it, some just don't have it in them to be a part of it, some of us could not live with ourselves for not being a part of it. Two things that cop better hope for; Someone who will automatically act (anyone else won't be much help anyhow), and that they're not a New Orleans cop, because those armed citizens still don't all have their guns back. Didn't mean to put a bee in anyone's bonnet, but you gotta admit, Those b**t**ds might find it harder than many others to get help from the public. I stand by my previous post, cops are people, and they have wives and kids they want to go home to, but some cops (usually local-yokels whose uncle got them a job) need to learn that respect is a two way street, and though my town is okay, there are local towns around here in which the cops are just plain crooks. Doug, I assume this is why you referred to a State Cop. I know this is off point, but it makes a difference what picture you put in your mind. I can think of two nearby towns in which I would have to question whether the cop would watch my back as I watched his, and I'd definitely spend the night in the tank for discharging a weapon while they searched for anything to trouble me with. This is not a joke. Back to the point; Here in RI, we really respect and admire our Staties, and advise that others do too.

threegun · June 25, 2007, 12:45 PM

I would help only if my life is the only gamble. As Skunk said if I had my children or wife with me I would have to insure their safety before helping. Car bodies simply cannot stop most hi powered rifle bullets. My dependents would be in the same boat as the officer if my initial shot wasn't true. I couldn't bear that burden. Once I secured my family (perhaps in the woods) then I would help. If things go as planned it should only require one shot.

sterno · June 26, 2007, 11:29 AM

Why use your gun when you're sitting in a 2+ ton weapon - your car.

I don't think I could just drive by and do nothing. I don't have some great love for police officers, but when all is said and done that guy is not just a cop - he may very well be a father, husband, son, great dancer...whatever.

I'm not saying I'm going to actively step in the way of a bullet for him, but I'm gonna try to even the odds. A scenario like this is not the reason I carry. I carry so that I can even my own odds. By any means at my disposal.

Thumper · June 26, 2007, 01:05 PM

Um, kill the bad guy.

Is this a trick question?

ws6_keith · June 27, 2007, 12:10 PM

I'm reading all these responses and agreeing with a few on what my actions would be (I too would try to render assistance - as I'm single with no kids).

My big question, and perhaps this is because I live in the city (Vegas), is when I stop my truck 100yds from the cop and come out with a rifle, what does HE think I'm going to do? Does the cop immediately think I'm another BG? Sure, I'm not pointing my weapon at him (probably pointed up if I'm behind cover), but he has no idea of my intentions.

My two biggest fears when it comes to this scenario (and we've all thought about it after seeing COPS or something, then driving by a cop with someone pulled over on the side of the road), are either 1. scaring the cop into shooting me because he doesn't know my intentions; or 2. possibly shooting the wrong guy in the situation. I guess if the cop is in uniform, that's a fair assumption that he's the good guy, but what about an undercover? Impersonator?

So, this guy is crouched behind the patrol car wearing plain clothes...is he the perp that made it back to the car and the cop has him pinned down or is he a plainclothes officer or an off-duty? There's where it starts getting gray for me.

DougO83 · June 27, 2007, 12:31 PM

I'm single, young and have very little to lose if I were involved in a gunfight. I would leave behind no debt for my family to deal with, etc. I would most definitely engage the BG with the permission of the officer. I am, however, an armed and trained rent-a-cop in Texas. I am pretty well certain that I can keep my cool and presence of mind in a firefight, due to FOF training. I owe my life to the police and my freedom to the military. If either one is in a situation beyond their control, I want a piece. True, some people fear death being a hero, I don't.

BackwoodsFiero · June 27, 2007, 02:40 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Allen_Wilson

A sad, real-life example of a shoot out and similar situation the OP proposed

Dannavy85 · June 27, 2007, 03:11 PM

Most of the cars are zipping past. The trooper can't get to his radio. You have a handgun on you and a rifle and/or shotgun on the backseat or trunk of your car.
What do you do?

Drive on and say a prayer for him?

Drive on, call 911 and then say a prayer for him?

Pull over before or after you pass and render what assistance you can?

If you have comperable weapons to the offender, you are obligated to render assist to the officer. If you have a cellphone, you must call assistance, give information then return fire upon the aggressor.

Recently in New Hampshire an ex-Marine came to the aid of a dying police officer after he'd been shot walking away from a speeding suspect and killed the bastard. No way I'd leave a Law Officer to the hands of a maniac.

June 15, 2007, 02:14 PM	#4
Samurai Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 901	I think that a forum which even suggests that such a thing would be even the slightest bit probable would make good ammunition for an argument in favor of complete abolishment of auto rifles. That said, I'd probably bail out. Me with a gun, ready, and the assailant with a gun, ready, is a fair fight. I make it a point NEVER to fight a fair fight. (See signature-line quote #1.) __________________ - Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed! - Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight? - When in doubt, train, train, train...

June 16, 2007, 08:35 AM	#6
Donovan655 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2006 Posts: 138	If this is in the day and you can see what is going on... i'd floor it past the scene and duck for a bit. perhaps this is enough of a distraction for the officer to get to his radio. then i'd stop and render assistance with whatever i was carrying at the time. if it is one guy with an AR then he will have his hands full trying to shoot at two people with pistols. __________________ Beretta M9, Beretta PX4, 92 FS, ruger sr9, glock 26, glock 17, glock 22, glock 19, sig sp 2022, dan wesson 1911

June 16, 2007, 04:30 PM	#7
mlandman Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: S. Fla Posts: 58	Many rifle rounds will not even be slowed down by the sheet metal of your vehicle. The LEO is "pinned down" but is presumably behind something hard (engine?). Call in the cavalry. BTW... many LEOs have a portable radio with them. __________________ A refugee from THR PM9, USPc9, M&P9, M&Pc9...do we see a pattern?

June 16, 2007, 06:55 PM	#9
ohioleadslinger Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 175	In Ohio if a LEO asks for help you are bound by law to do so. Now if he doesn't ask well then you very well may be arrested for spitting lead at the nut job. I doubt if that would be the case here in Ohio, but in CA or NY or Ill?????? Those people hate us gun toters, and the powers that be in those states would rather let an LEO die a terrifying horrible slow painful death than admit they are wrong. __________________ Why do I carry a gun? The cop I was carrying was causing me back problems! *Piing contests are boring, and quite often you get your feet wet and make them stink!* Fat people are harder to kidnap! Life Member NRA , OFCC Member** Last edited by ohioleadslinger; June 16, 2007 at 08:45 PM.

June 16, 2007, 07:41 PM	#10
jfrey123 Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2006 Location: Reno, NV. Posts: 1,026	Option 4: Laughs when he reads another "What If..." posted by the mind provoking Doug.38PR... __________________ Rock out with your Glock out!

June 15, 2007, 11:37 AM	#1
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	Scenario 5 Okay my turn, Suppose you are driving down the interstate in the country. Suddenly up ahead you see cars swerving around, one or two scattering off highway. On the right just ahead of this commotion see a state trooper's car behind a car that had been pulled over. The state trooper is pinned down behind his car by a man from the car he pulled over with a semi auto rifle who pinned him down and fled up into the trees up the hill beside the cars and is now firing down on the troopers car and at cars passing by. Most of the cars are zipping past. The trooper can't get to his radio. You have a handgun on you and a rifle and/or shotgun on the backseat or trunk of your car. What do you do? Drive on and say a prayer for him? Drive on, call 911 and then say a prayer for him? Pull over before or after you pass and render what assistance you can?

June 15, 2007, 11:46 AM	#2
Prophet Junior member Join Date: November 20, 2006 Location: Great State of TEXAS Posts: 244	I would first use my truck as rolling cover for the officer to get to his radio, I would then get my rifle and give it to the officer if he didn't have sufficant enough firepower. Then I'd drive a ways and be a good witness.

June 15, 2007, 02:07 PM	#3
Skunk Junior Member Join Date: February 25, 2007 Location: Northern Wisconsin Posts: 12	I wouldn't even get close to that kind of action. I'd stop way short of the incident, maybe even back up a little to be sure I was out of range. Then I'd call 911 and report what was happening and where it was taking place. I would especially take the retreat actions if my wife or kids where with me. Sorry, I'm just not the hero type. Skunk

June 16, 2007, 07:55 AM	#5
DesertDawg Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2007 Location: So Cal Posts: 158	First of all, you'd have to have some PHENOMINAL powers of observation to make that many assessments while driving at even a "reasonable" speed! What I would do will probably differ greatly to what others might do, but that's because I'm a retired LEO. I'd pull as close to the Trooper's car as possible, duck down and exit my vehicle. I'd then yell to the Trooper that I am an off-duty officer, and if he acknowledged that, I'd tell him that I will lay down some "cover fire" in the trees, so that he might be able to get to his radio. Next would be to try to make contact with the police on my cell phone. Why did I choose to go to the cell phone AFTER trying to help the Trooper get to his radio? Because his radio is "instant" communications to the police, instead of the "delayed" response through using the phone. Hey, if my truck gets a few bullet holes, I'd just send the bill to the police agency! My bet is that they'd be glad to pay for the repairs! Personally, I'd only be interested in saving the life of the Trooper and the other motorists.

June 19, 2007, 12:56 PM	#12
Tanzer Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2007 Posts: 884	I know my limits, and value my life. I'd be scared as heck, but in no way does that cop need to tell me that he/she needs help, and I could never live with having not done what I could. 1. No "action movie hero stuff", but I'd lay down whatever ground cover I could. Being alone would be an advantage because with my wife/kids in the car I'd have to be COMPLETELY sure they were out of harm's way even if that means jumping in the ditch and having them back up 200yds. - I'm sure the cop would want that. This is step one because that radio will get things moving a lot faster than my cell phone. 2. Depends on results of step 1. Use cell if necessary, follow cop's request (unless it's "go get them") I really think the cop wants as little help from me as possible. What he/she wants is a lot of help from colleagues. Heck, I could screw things up, or get hurt for which they'd be answering. If I'm told to get lost, I'm gone. I'll call in & answer questions later. 3. Seek fresh undergarments. I'm no hero either, but no way am I gonna stand by or run if it's a good guy pinned down. I'd be good enough at grazing fire with anything I own. That's about the best (and the least) I could do for you LEO's out there. This is of course assuming that it IS A COP! The gang-bangers can kill themselves off! If the guy is hiding behind a purple Honda with spinners on the hubcaps and green neon lights under the car, he's on his own. As for in between - unknown good or bad guy, tough call. Are there kids in the car? etc.. DEFINATELY cell phone first - frantic emphasis! Needs assessment at the scene, and not part of this thread. __________________ Only the ignorant find ignorance to be bliss. Only those of us who know better will suffer from it.

June 19, 2007, 01:42 PM	#14
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	Skunk, What Powderman says rings true of LEO and non-LEO alike. What if PM wasn't a policeman? What if we had no policeman? Then what? What if we didn't have anybody, a sheriff, a possee, or anything to enforce law? How would we catch criminals? Somebody has to do it. We talk in this forum all the time about how "we can't depend on the police to protect us" well neither should you expect them to always be able to protect each other. If you don't expect police backup to get there on time for you when a burglar breaks in, why should you expect police backup to get there in time to save him (or anyone)? Anyone who would abandon or ignore someone in need is indeed a worthless human being. We are morally responsible for each other. While you are not legally obligated to put your life on the line, you still might very well have a moral obligation to help. That's not to say you should put your 4 year old in the line of fire (and PM I'm sure didn't mean for you to either), but it does say that you should render aid if she is not with you or if you can let her off down the road before or after you get to the point of shooting or get her to a point of safety before helping. If you can't do that, then don't engage. I read of an incident (admittedly 3rd hand) in another forum some time ago where an incident such as I describe in this thread did happen. I think it was a Texas DPS trooper who was pinned down behind his car by a man with a rifle. He couldn't get to his radio. A man with his little boy drove by in a pickup, pulled over 100 yards down the road, got the little boy down on the floor, took his deer rifle and took out the shooter saving the trooper's life.

June 19, 2007, 01:59 PM	#15
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Doug, IIRC it was a hunter with a .243 rifle, and I think the boy was a bit older--not quite a youngun, but still not an adult yet. I do remember the story, but not where it happened. Skunk, I remember a time when--not too long ago--I would have been quite upset by your remarks. I would have responded in kind, and a big flame war would have begun. To tell the truth, I have to thank you--and other posters of your mindset--for teaching me an invaluable lesson. That lesson is this--that when the chips are down and it's time to put up or shut up, that there are darned few--REALLY few--people who will step into the breach. I have learned that there are people who will hide behind anything to keep from stepping forward. I have learned that there are people who talk a great fight when talking about carrying guns. I have learned that I can count on brother or sister officers for immediate assistance--but with the general public, it's a crap shoot. There are still some folks out there who will not stand idly by, but will get involved. To them, I say thanks. To the rest of you, I say God bless, and I hope you enjoy a full, non-troubled life. As for me? I'll just keep doing what I'm sworn to do, and what's in my genetic makeup anyway, thank you very much. See y'all later. Think I'll change my signature, too. __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

June 19, 2007, 06:15 PM	#18
Tanzer Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2007 Posts: 884	It's a crap shoot no matter how you look at it, some just don't have it in them to be a part of it, some of us could not live with ourselves for not being a part of it. Two things that cop better hope for; Someone who will automatically act (anyone else won't be much help anyhow), and that they're not a New Orleans cop, because those armed citizens still don't all have their guns back. Didn't mean to put a bee in anyone's bonnet, but you gotta admit, Those btds might find it harder than many others to get help from the public. I stand by my previous post, cops are people, and they have wives and kids they want to go home to, but some cops (usually local-yokels whose uncle got them a job) need to learn that respect is a two way street, and though my town is okay, there are local towns around here in which the cops are just plain crooks. Doug, I assume this is why you referred to a State Cop. I know this is off point, but it makes a difference what picture you put in your mind. I can think of two nearby towns in which I would have to question whether the cop would watch my back as I watched his, and I'd definitely spend the night in the tank for discharging a weapon while they searched for anything to trouble me with. This is not a joke. Back to the point; Here in RI, we really respect and admire our Staties, and advise that others do too. __________________ Only the ignorant find ignorance to be bliss. Only those of us who know better will suffer from it. Last edited by Tanzer; June 19, 2007 at 06:48 PM. Reason: addition

June 25, 2007, 12:45 PM	#19
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	I would help only if my life is the only gamble. As Skunk said if I had my children or wife with me I would have to insure their safety before helping. Car bodies simply cannot stop most hi powered rifle bullets. My dependents would be in the same boat as the officer if my initial shot wasn't true. I couldn't bear that burden. Once I secured my family (perhaps in the woods) then I would help. If things go as planned it should only require one shot.

June 26, 2007, 11:29 AM	#20
sterno Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 362	Why use your gun when you're sitting in a 2+ ton weapon - your car. I don't think I could just drive by and do nothing. I don't have some great love for police officers, but when all is said and done that guy is not just a cop - he may very well be a father, husband, son, great dancer...whatever. I'm not saying I'm going to actively step in the way of a bullet for him, but I'm gonna try to even the odds. A scenario like this is not the reason I carry. I carry so that I can even my own odds. By any means at my disposal. __________________ .38, .39; whatever it took. Sterno's Myspace - Grayskull Myspace

June 26, 2007, 01:05 PM	#21
Thumper Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2000 Location: Sugar Land, Tx Posts: 1,507	Um, kill the bad guy. Is this a trick question? __________________ Ronnie- Proud Veteran, Neocon, Warmongering, Baby-Pincher

June 27, 2007, 12:10 PM	#22
ws6_keith Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 1999 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 147	I'm reading all these responses and agreeing with a few on what my actions would be (I too would try to render assistance - as I'm single with no kids). My big question, and perhaps this is because I live in the city (Vegas), is when I stop my truck 100yds from the cop and come out with a rifle, what does HE think I'm going to do? Does the cop immediately think I'm another BG? Sure, I'm not pointing my weapon at him (probably pointed up if I'm behind cover), but he has no idea of my intentions. My two biggest fears when it comes to this scenario (and we've all thought about it after seeing COPS or something, then driving by a cop with someone pulled over on the side of the road), are either 1. scaring the cop into shooting me because he doesn't know my intentions; or 2. possibly shooting the wrong guy in the situation. I guess if the cop is in uniform, that's a fair assumption that he's the good guy, but what about an undercover? Impersonator? So, this guy is crouched behind the patrol car wearing plain clothes...is he the perp that made it back to the car and the cop has him pinned down or is he a plainclothes officer or an off-duty? There's where it starts getting gray for me. __________________ Keith http://www.ws6.com

June 27, 2007, 12:31 PM	#23
DougO83 Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 389	in my case I'm single, young and have very little to lose if I were involved in a gunfight. I would leave behind no debt for my family to deal with, etc. I would most definitely engage the BG with the permission of the officer. I am, however, an armed and trained rent-a-cop in Texas. I am pretty well certain that I can keep my cool and presence of mind in a firefight, due to FOF training. I owe my life to the police and my freedom to the military. If either one is in a situation beyond their control, I want a piece. True, some people fear death being a hero, I don't. __________________ "You can all go to hell, I'm going to Texas." ---Colonel David Crockett Matt 6:33

June 27, 2007, 02:40 PM	#24
BackwoodsFiero Junior Member Join Date: June 27, 2007 Posts: 1	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Allen_Wilson A sad, real-life example of a shoot out and similar situation the OP proposed

June 27, 2007, 03:11 PM	#25
Dannavy85 Junior member Join Date: June 27, 2007 Posts: 46	Most of the cars are zipping past. The trooper can't get to his radio. You have a handgun on you and a rifle and/or shotgun on the backseat or trunk of your car. What do you do? Drive on and say a prayer for him? Drive on, call 911 and then say a prayer for him? Pull over before or after you pass and render what assistance you can? If you have comperable weapons to the offender, you are obligated to render assist to the officer. If you have a cellphone, you must call assistance, give information then return fire upon the aggressor. Recently in New Hampshire an ex-Marine came to the aid of a dying police officer after he'd been shot walking away from a speeding suspect and killed the bastard. No way I'd leave a Law Officer to the hands of a maniac.