Why The Republicans Have Earned My Vote On Gun Rights

[JerryM]

Micro,
[1. Jerrym, so, what about not establishing a religion? What about all the Pagans, Wiccans, Muslims, Satanists and worshippers of Barney the Purple Dinosaur holding citizenship in America?]

No one that I personally know wants a state religion. The Constitution does prohibit that, and wisely so. However, that does not mean that government is free from religion in the sense that its laws are formed on the basis of moral views which come from religion. Ours from the Christian values contained in the Holy Bible. The views and actions of the people we elect to represent us are shaped by their religious values.

Our nation is different in its laws and moral values from China or Iraq for instance. Why? Because this nation was founded upon Christian principles, and its laws reflect those principles.

If you disagree, then where do absolute moral values originate, and do you consider that a nation's laws are devoid of moral values?

Jerry

[Don Gwinn]

Microbalrog, you are mistaken.

Dr. Keyes stated that the ban on machine guns should be lifted (both the federal and Illinois state laws.) A later interviewer said that Keyes was in favor of "handing out machine guns" to the public and that he wanted to encourage people to "carry machine guns wherever they go." Dr. Keyes simply corrected those misstatements, then spent several minutes none of us will get back trying to explain to his interlocutor that just as 2+2 does not equal 7, opposing a ban on the purchase and possession of a machine gun does not equal support for handing out free Uzis at government offices.

Psychosword, elevate your language, please. I'll gladly debate bizarre assertions from you or anyone else, but there's no call for the language you're using. It may not be obscene, but crassness is unnecessary.

[Don Gwinn]

Our nation is different in its laws and moral values from China or Iraq for instance.

Or Israel?

[Marko Kloos]

JerryM,

religion is not the only source for morality.

From looking at the laws which this nation has had on the books in the last 200 years, it is obvious that even religious people can make laws which are morally abhorrent, like slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, and so on. The same Congress that put "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance and "In God We Trust" on paper money also fought desegregation tooth and nail...until those "activist judges" on the Supreme Court declared segregation unconstitutional.

It seems like nobody has a grip on "absolute morality".

Oh, and the definition of anarchy is not "where I don't get to tell people what to do."

Have you ever considered that a morality which needs to be enforced by the guns of the state is no morality at all? A man who behaves morally only at gunpoint cannot claim that morality to be a virtue. It would be like a Eunuch claiming chastity as a virtue.

[JerryM]

Mark,
[It seems like nobody has a grip on "absolute morality".

Oh, and the definition of anarchy is not "where I don't get to tell people what to do."

Have you ever considered that a morality which needs to be enforced by the guns of the state is no morality at all? A man who behaves morally only at gunpoint cannot claim that morality to be a virtue. It would be like a Eunuch claiming chastity as a virtue.]

While mankind does not put into practice the moral absolutes that have been given by the Creator, they exist anyway. Realize that though this nation was founded upon Christian principles, lawmakers and people have not always followed those principles and precepts.

It is a fact that mankind does a poor job of governing himself under any set of circumstances. That can be seen from the various dispensations wherein God has dealt with man. From a perfect environment in the Garden of Eden through the period of the Mosaic Law, to this period of grace. Man always fails to act and govern justly and morally. The USA does this better than others, but we also fall short.

Moral absolutes cannot originate within the human mind and conscience. All we have to do is to look at tribes/societies which believe cannabilism and headhunting are moral. Only the true God has the wisdom and authority to establish moral absolutes, and He has done so in the Bible.

It is not correct to state that, "Have you ever considered that a morality which needs to be enforced by the guns of the state is no morality at all?"
In fact that is done every day. How do you think we enforce the moral standard that one is not to commit murder? It is done at gunpoint. That in no way lessens the morality of it, but instead demonstrates the depravity of mankind. In fact the Bible recognizes that fact.
[Romans 13:1 ¶Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.]

[A man who behaves morally only at gunpoint cannot claim that morality to be a virtue.]

Those who refuse to act morally are not in fact moral, but they are held to that standard anyway, even if at gunpoint. Why do you think that we have a police force, and military services? It is to enforce laws, moral and otherwise.
The fact that man behaves in an immoral way does not negate the absolutes of morality.

The old canard that "You can't legislate morality." is as a friend used to say, is true, but not the truth.
We legislate morality all the time. It is true that a law cannot change one's heart, but it does a couple of things.
1 - It regulates moral behavior for the betterment of society.
2 - It teaches the rules of morality and behavior. It is important that youth grow up with moral rules including the law if we are to survive as the nation we once knew.

All this seems to escape many/most libertarians.
The darkest period in the history of Israel was during the period of the Judges. The Bible says about that period,
"Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes."

Fallen mankind cannot do that which is right in God's eyes, and that is why He has given us the moral absolutes that He requires of us. It sounds as if most of Isreal was libertarians in those days.

I might add, that we do have liberty, and that includes the rejection of the Libertarian Party. It is obvious that the LP does not reflect the morality of the nation as a whole.

Jerry

[Marko Kloos]

If man is so depraved that he cannot be trusted to govern himself, how can he be trusted with the government of others?

[JerryM]

Marco,
[If man is so depraved that he cannot be trusted to govern himself, how can he be trusted with the government of others?]

An excellent question. What is the origin of wisdom necessary to govern properly and justly? Here is the answer God gives.

[2 Chronicles 1:11 And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:
12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.]

[Psalms 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Proverbs 1:7 ¶The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.]

Here is what Solomon, the wisest man ever, said at the end of his life, after trying everything to find happiness and satisfaction.
[Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.]

A president must be wise, and that means that he must have the wisdom that can only come from God.
Currently, it is obvious that Kerry is not a godly man, but instead furthers the cause of those things that God says is sin. President Bush has a desire to lead this nation in righteousness.

It is the lack of moral righteousness that has led to school shootings, and then the loss of gun rights. It is the lack of moral righteousness that leads to violence that prevents children from playing outside after dark and women being able to walk at night without fear. I could go on, but as we go farther away from the morals of the Bible, we lose liberty. That should be obvious, but is seems not to be.

I have personally seen in my lifetime the moral degradation of the nation, and its loss of liberty. Only if we return to the moral values upon which the nation was founded can it change.

Jerry