My friend's transformation - Page 2

Brian Pfleuger · March 2, 2009, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Now, if you made a comment saying...

I'd guess the offender wouldn't be around to see that one however.

**44 AMP** · March 3, 2009, 12:16 AM

even their fingerprints would be removed.

keys85 · March 3, 2009, 12:25 AM

Women base their decisions on emotion rather than logical thinking. (see Interpersonal Communications, 10th ed. Joseph A. Devito)

If that were the case for men, I'd be in jail a loooooooong time ago.

Gender may not play a role, but stupidity does. If anybody called out to me, publicly, "GOT YOUR GUN ON YOU?", would be a sign to me that such person is STUPID. Enough said.

pax · March 3, 2009, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Women base their decisions on emotion rather than logical thinking.

Heh.

And here we go again ...

No, on second thought, I'll sit this one out. Have a nice life.

pax

RainbowBob · March 3, 2009, 12:46 AM

Quote:

No, on second thought, I'll sit this one out. Have a nice life.

Good choice, Kathy...not worth it.

keys85 · March 3, 2009, 01:24 AM

No, no, don't take it like that.

A woman living on paradise island with no fear of danger is not going to lug around a heavy gun all day. In today's society, woman are threatened by sexual assault, rape, etc, and I would assume that due to their smaller stature and strength comparatively to men, a firearm is a good choice for defensive purposes. Woman may conceal carry due to these fears of violent crimes against them and have every right to protect themselves and loved ones. But it is my opinion that if crime did not exist, a good majority of women would not carry. I also believe a good number of woman who carry are in a relationship with men who own guns. Those who are not probably own one gun. I don't study these statistics, so I don't know. I do not know a single women who is a gun collector, not in a relationship with a male gun collector. In anycase, I'm saying emotionally, the choice is more prevalent for women to carry then reasons for men. Give me a reason why a woman would carry a firearm if she didn't feel threatened or feared that she may be, or put into a situation where she would need it.
I don't carry because I have a fear, paranoia (as some women put it), or feel threatened that I may be assaulted. I am 6'2", 185lbs, and can handle my own. I am more than comfortable with a roll of quarters. So why do I carry? Is it by choice of fear of violent crime? No. Like many male gun owners who can take an assailant's firearm apart and make him eat it, I carry because it is my privilege and I have a gun addiction to where I must constantly tinker, fiddle, look at, buy, reload for, or admire functionality or cosmetics with a firearm. Having one with me reduces the anxiety of knowing there's one at home collecting dust.

Why would anybody publicly announce that her partner had a firearm on them? Are they trying to have them get their permit revoked? That's stupid and irresponsible. No doubt about it, there is a fear of guns in society. Carrying a firearm is serious business and takes responsibility. Understanding the law and when deadly force may be used is no joke. There are way too many airheads out there just waiting for a brandishing a firearm charge or something along those lines, simply because they can't comprehend the seriousness. It's the mentality of those who make it difficult for the rest of us who have higher IQs.

**Mike Irwin** · March 3, 2009, 01:31 AM

It's been quite awhile since I've read his work, but using Devito to bolster your argument is way wrong.

IIRC Devito's entire premise is that women base decisions regarding their communicative interactions with others on emotion.

An armed encounter is rarely a give and take communicative interaction, and as such it's impossible to draw a distinct correlary.

Even for men many armed encounters are based on emotional reactions -- I FEEL threatened by this individual.

Instinctual preservation processes kick in and push everything else to the rear.

"A woman living on paradise island with no fear of danger is not going to lug around a heavy gun all day."

You think a man would carry a gun routinely in a similar setting?

If so, I'd have to ask, if there's is no fear of danger, WHY the man chooses to carry a gun all day? Lacking the fear threat, what would compel a man to carry a gun? A sense of dominance? An "enhancement" product?

Wagonman · March 3, 2009, 01:38 AM

If I lived in Margaritaville I would not feel the need to be armed.

keys85 · March 3, 2009, 01:43 AM

To say the least, I could entertain myself for a good portion of the day on paradise island with a gun. Inspecting, cleaning, dry firing, etc. It would also open up coconuts and shoot bananas down easily. I've been carrying a while. Not that I feel threatened as to why I carry as the fact that I feel unaccustomed not not having it with me. I feel like I am missing something without it. That feeling you get when you sit down and your wallet isn't in your pants? Habit.

pax · March 3, 2009, 02:18 AM

Given your assertion that men are strictly logical while women reason from emotion, I find it interesting that you actually tried to support this assertion most illogically! You tried claiming that, in the absence of any sort of threat, in a perfect world, a woman wouldn't carry or keep firearms for defense, but a man would keep firearms around just to play with them. Whether or not that is factually accurate (it isn't), it sure doesn't support your hypothesis. Choosing to keep and carry weapons around in the absence of a threat isn't a logical response: it's an emotional one.

But setting that aside:

Quote:

I do not know a single women who is a gun collector, not in a relationship with a male gun collector.

That's what we call an "argument from ignorance." You don't personally know any such women, therefore women like that don't exist.

So let me make some introductions:

Me.

Tamara.

And probably about a quarter of the women I know through the range. A great many women first become interested in shooting when the man walks out or dies. But most of these women aren't going to walk up to some strange dude at the range and suddenly start blurting out their life stories.

Now some advice: when you're in a hole, stop digging.

pax

keys85 · March 3, 2009, 02:24 AM

Ok. I'll let you win this debate. Just keep in mind I used to cheat at Candy Land when I was a child.

Traditionally, firearms were something that was a father/son thing passed down. Dad showed his son how to shoot, safety, maybe bought him his first .22 rifle, etc. This isn't as prevalent today. Back in the 60s it seemed almost every 16 year old had a .22 rifle. I believe because of this, woman get a lot of negative vibes from men when it comes to guns because it is part of the boyhood heritage that would like to be maintained. It's just another guy thing guys want to keep "manly", like working on cars, getting greasy, fixing the refrigerator, or being an interior structure firefighter.

Marko Kloos · March 3, 2009, 09:02 AM

You know what? If my little girl wants to work on cars, get greasy, fix the refrigerator, train to be an IDPA champion, or try out to be a firefighter, I'll hand her the tools and show her how (or refer her to people who can teach her properly if I can't.)

And if my little boy wants to take ballet lessons, cook dinners for the family, go to school to become a kindergarten teacher, or do floral arrangements for fun or profit, I'll do the same for him.

Quote:

Women base their decisions on emotion rather than logical thinking.

Uh huh. That's why 80%+ of domestic violence perpetrators are male...because beating the hell out of your partner/spouse is such a rational thing to do.

Mark Milton · March 3, 2009, 09:24 AM

Despite what liberals and idiots want people to think, we live in Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, not in Disneyland.

You can be the wolf, or you can be the sheep.

It's in your best interest to make your choice wisely, based on your survival, not on the approval of the politically correct.

Sounds like your friend has figured this out...

Dustin0 · March 3, 2009, 09:44 AM

Chris Bluegrass range here in Louisville offers a women only safty class for free. You might want to call them and look into it.

**Bud Helms** · March 3, 2009, 11:25 AM

Somebody's been drinking downstream from the herd.

keys85 · March 3, 2009, 11:39 AM

Why is the course for women only? If women want to play men's sports, shouldn't they be welcomed as one in the clan?

Tamara · March 3, 2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keys85

I do not know a single women who is a gun collector, not in a relationship with a male gun collector.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

Oh, aren't you just the cutest li'l thang!

Oh, Jaysus, I'm sorry... I'm laughing too hard to type... *snerk!*

Marko Kloos · March 3, 2009, 12:18 PM

I must have missed the memo where shooting was declared a "man's sport". Not once in my life have I encountered a gun that requires a set of testicles to operate properly.

To answer your question: it's a "women only" course because it lets interested women get proper instruction without being bugged by misogynistic dinosaurs who can't help but dispense incorrect and unwanted advice whenever they see a woman with a gun at their shooting range.

Shocking thought, I know, but there are a few guys like that out there.

pax · March 3, 2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

If women want to play men's sports ....

Oh, that's cute, that is.

The right to self-defense is not a male perogative. It belongs to all human beings, male and female alike.

The duty to defend the helpless is not a male duty. It belongs to all the competent and capable, male and female alike.

Enjoying an afternoon on the range is not a male privilege. It belongs to all free people, male and female alike.

Firearms activities, therefore, aren't a men's sport.

I'm not a guy. I'm a woman, and I happen to enjoy firearms – especially self-defense firearms – and related topics. I didn't get into shooting in order to hang out with the guys. I got into shooting because it's what I wanted to do and because I believed it was what I needed to do in order to be a fully adult human, capable of protecting myself and others around me. I got into shooting because I am a woman who wanted to know how to effectively and efficiently defend herself.

So, no, I don't feel it's necessary to be a guy or hang with the guys in order to love firearms. If I want to spend an afternoon on the range hanging out with the girls, that's my privilege and right as a free citizen.

Kathy

"Is there anything wrong with a woman preferring the dignity of an armed citizen? I don't like to be coddled and I don't like to be treated like a minor child. So I waive immunity and claim my right -- I go armed." -- Longcourt Phyllis in Beyond This Horizon by Robert Heinlein

flippycat · March 3, 2009, 01:12 PM

this thread made me lol 2x

if anything women are more level headed and cool as cucumbers under pressure then most men are because they take the time to actually know what the heck they are doing and not worried how they dangle in time of crisis.

I can tell you right now at this moment..you give me 1 women that knows how to shoot and I would take her over the 10 male friends I know that own guns who got their skills from 3rd person couch commander games and the internet.

lol Slowly I am working on my own female version of my trusted backup :P...though she does not always agree with the pace I would like her to go at she does put fourth GREAT effort in learning how to shoot effectively. And she went from a taboo scared hater to someone who now takes the steps to learn for herself rather then just take my word for it.

We are both taking our ccw together the end of March and was the only person I asked rather then asking some of my couch commando friends

One thing I will say though ...my girl is EVIL ..she spurred me on to make my second handgun purchase last week because it was a good deal lol...which in turn makes me feel like I will be working a lot of overtime soon to pay for our new found hobby lol

RainbowBob · March 3, 2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Ok. I'll let you win this debate.

keys85: Trust me on this...you didn't "let" her win the debate. She cleaned your clock, wound it for you, and told you what time it is.

Brian Pfleuger · March 3, 2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Give me a reason why a woman would carry a firearm if she didn't feel threatened or feared that she may be, or put into a situation where she would need it.

What?!

Why would ANYBODY carry if there was not a chance they'd need it? That is the strangest statement I've seen in some time. Why would somebody go through all the trouble and time of practice, the cost of weapons and ammo and the inconvenience of carrying if they KNEW they would never need it?

I don't think a women would carry money if she didn't fear she might need it or want to buy something or think she might want lunch...

Tamara · March 3, 2009, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keys85

Give me a reason why a woman would carry a firearm if she didn't feel threatened or feared that she may be, or put into a situation where she would need it.

Uhhh... wait... lemme think here...

Ooh! Ooh! I know!

Because. She. Wants. To?

What do I win?

I'd like to take "keys85" on in a "Gun Nerd Knowledge Quiz". I'd also like to make book on the outcome...

Quote:

Originally Posted by peetzakilla

Why would ANYBODY carry if there was not a chance they'd need it?

Uh, because it's my right? It's my badge of freedom as a citizen? An unarmed person is a serf and an armed person isn't? As my ancestors put it, "A knifeless man is a lifeless man"?

I'd pack heat in Heaven...

Glenn E. Meyer · March 3, 2009, 02:58 PM

There are hilarious write ups of how a woman goes to the range and men (probably who lack the touch of a significant other

) creep over to give them advice - which of course entails some close contact to adjust their position. Yuk.

BTW, if you study modern research on gender issues - you would know that the blanket statement by DeVito is baloney. Probably reflects his biases.

Gunsmom · March 3, 2009, 10:16 PM

Compared to Tamara and Pax, I'm still a beginner, but I do collect in a small way. My significant other doesn't shoot.

As far as negative vibes are concerned, that has not been my experience, for the most part. Yes, there are a few of the misogynistic dinosaurs out there, and a few who are well-intentioned but mistaken ("what you need is a revolver"- "no, I prefer a semiauto" or "ladies like to carry these little guns in their purses" -"I prefer to carry on my person, thanks). I've had more positive comments than negative.

Now, I'd like for someone to explain to me how it's an emotional decision for a woman to carry a gun because she is most likely to be attacked by a male, who will be larger and stronger, and she needs the advantage; yet, it's a logical decision for a man to carry, even though he's larger and stronger than most potential attackers, and doesn't really need the advantage? Or did I miss something here?

March 3, 2009, 12:16 AM	#27
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,874	even their fingerprints would be removed. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 3, 2009, 01:24 AM	#31
keys85 Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2008 Posts: 199	No, no, don't take it like that. A woman living on paradise island with no fear of danger is not going to lug around a heavy gun all day. In today's society, woman are threatened by sexual assault, rape, etc, and I would assume that due to their smaller stature and strength comparatively to men, a firearm is a good choice for defensive purposes. Woman may conceal carry due to these fears of violent crimes against them and have every right to protect themselves and loved ones. But it is my opinion that if crime did not exist, a good majority of women would not carry. I also believe a good number of woman who carry are in a relationship with men who own guns. Those who are not probably own one gun. I don't study these statistics, so I don't know. I do not know a single women who is a gun collector, not in a relationship with a male gun collector. In anycase, I'm saying emotionally, the choice is more prevalent for women to carry then reasons for men. Give me a reason why a woman would carry a firearm if she didn't feel threatened or feared that she may be, or put into a situation where she would need it. I don't carry because I have a fear, paranoia (as some women put it), or feel threatened that I may be assaulted. I am 6'2", 185lbs, and can handle my own. I am more than comfortable with a roll of quarters. So why do I carry? Is it by choice of fear of violent crime? No. Like many male gun owners who can take an assailant's firearm apart and make him eat it, I carry because it is my privilege and I have a gun addiction to where I must constantly tinker, fiddle, look at, buy, reload for, or admire functionality or cosmetics with a firearm. Having one with me reduces the anxiety of knowing there's one at home collecting dust. Why would anybody publicly announce that her partner had a firearm on them? Are they trying to have them get their permit revoked? That's stupid and irresponsible. No doubt about it, there is a fear of guns in society. Carrying a firearm is serious business and takes responsibility. Understanding the law and when deadly force may be used is no joke. There are way too many airheads out there just waiting for a brandishing a firearm charge or something along those lines, simply because they can't comprehend the seriousness. It's the mentality of those who make it difficult for the rest of us who have higher IQs. Last edited by keys85; March 3, 2009 at 01:36 AM.

March 3, 2009, 02:24 AM	#36
keys85 Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2008 Posts: 199	Ok. I'll let you win this debate. Just keep in mind I used to cheat at Candy Land when I was a child. Traditionally, firearms were something that was a father/son thing passed down. Dad showed his son how to shoot, safety, maybe bought him his first .22 rifle, etc. This isn't as prevalent today. Back in the 60s it seemed almost every 16 year old had a .22 rifle. I believe because of this, woman get a lot of negative vibes from men when it comes to guns because it is part of the boyhood heritage that would like to be maintained. It's just another guy thing guys want to keep "manly", like working on cars, getting greasy, fixing the refrigerator, or being an interior structure firefighter. Last edited by keys85; March 3, 2009 at 02:35 AM.

March 3, 2009, 12:18 PM	#43
Marko Kloos Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: Enfield, NH Posts: 5,521	I must have missed the memo where shooting was declared a "man's sport". Not once in my life have I encountered a gun that requires a set of testicles to operate properly. To answer your question: it's a "women only" course because it lets interested women get proper instruction without being bugged by misogynistic dinosaurs who can't help but dispense incorrect and unwanted advice whenever they see a woman with a gun at their shooting range. Shocking thought, I know, but there are a few guys like that out there. __________________ "The right to buy weapons is the right to be free." --A.E. Van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher the munchkin wrangler.

March 3, 2009, 01:12 PM	#45
flippycat Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2009 Location: Hamilton, Ohio Posts: 213	this thread made me lol 2x if anything women are more level headed and cool as cucumbers under pressure then most men are because they take the time to actually know what the heck they are doing and not worried how they dangle in time of crisis. I can tell you right now at this moment..you give me 1 women that knows how to shoot and I would take her over the 10 male friends I know that own guns who got their skills from 3rd person couch commander games and the internet. lol Slowly I am working on my own female version of my trusted backup :P...though she does not always agree with the pace I would like her to go at she does put fourth GREAT effort in learning how to shoot effectively. And she went from a taboo scared hater to someone who now takes the steps to learn for herself rather then just take my word for it. We are both taking our ccw together the end of March and was the only person I asked rather then asking some of my couch commando friends One thing I will say though ...my girl is EVIL ..she spurred me on to make my second handgun purchase last week because it was a good deal lol...which in turn makes me feel like I will be working a lot of overtime soon to pay for our new found hobby lol __________________ Basics VS Marlboros both will kill you one just tastes better Ohios Firearm Classifieds profirearm.com

March 3, 2009, 12:25 AM	#28
keys85 Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2008 Posts: 199	Women base their decisions on emotion rather than logical thinking. (see Interpersonal Communications, 10th ed. Joseph A. Devito) If that were the case for men, I'd be in jail a loooooooong time ago. Gender may not play a role, but stupidity does. If anybody called out to me, publicly, "GOT YOUR GUN ON YOU?", would be a sign to me that such person is STUPID. Enough said.

March 3, 2009, 01:31 AM	#32
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	It's been quite awhile since I've read his work, but using Devito to bolster your argument is way wrong. IIRC Devito's entire premise is that women base decisions regarding their communicative interactions with others on emotion. An armed encounter is rarely a give and take communicative interaction, and as such it's impossible to draw a distinct correlary. Even for men many armed encounters are based on emotional reactions -- I FEEL threatened by this individual. Instinctual preservation processes kick in and push everything else to the rear. "A woman living on paradise island with no fear of danger is not going to lug around a heavy gun all day." You think a man would carry a gun routinely in a similar setting? If so, I'd have to ask, if there's is no fear of danger, WHY the man chooses to carry a gun all day? Lacking the fear threat, what would compel a man to carry a gun? A sense of dominance? An "enhancement" product?

March 3, 2009, 01:38 AM	#33
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	If I lived in Margaritaville I would not feel the need to be armed.

March 3, 2009, 01:43 AM	#34
keys85 Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2008 Posts: 199	To say the least, I could entertain myself for a good portion of the day on paradise island with a gun. Inspecting, cleaning, dry firing, etc. It would also open up coconuts and shoot bananas down easily. I've been carrying a while. Not that I feel threatened as to why I carry as the fact that I feel unaccustomed not not having it with me. I feel like I am missing something without it. That feeling you get when you sit down and your wallet isn't in your pants? Habit.

March 3, 2009, 09:24 AM	#38
Mark Milton Junior member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Posts: 504	Despite what liberals and idiots want people to think, we live in Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, not in Disneyland. You can be the wolf, or you can be the sheep. It's in your best interest to make your choice wisely, based on your survival, not on the approval of the politically correct. Sounds like your friend has figured this out...

March 3, 2009, 09:44 AM	#39
Dustin0 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2008 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 701	Chris Bluegrass range here in Louisville offers a women only safty class for free. You might want to call them and look into it.

March 3, 2009, 11:25 AM	#40
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Somebody's been drinking downstream from the herd.

March 3, 2009, 11:39 AM	#41
keys85 Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2008 Posts: 199	Why is the course for women only? If women want to play men's sports, shouldn't they be welcomed as one in the clan?

March 3, 2009, 02:58 PM	#49
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	There are hilarious write ups of how a woman goes to the range and men (probably who lack the touch of a significant other ) creep over to give them advice - which of course entails some close contact to adjust their position. Yuk. BTW, if you study modern research on gender issues - you would know that the blanket statement by DeVito is baloney. Probably reflects his biases. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

March 3, 2009, 10:16 PM	#50
Gunsmom Member Join Date: October 1, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 55	Compared to Tamara and Pax, I'm still a beginner, but I do collect in a small way. My significant other doesn't shoot. As far as negative vibes are concerned, that has not been my experience, for the most part. Yes, there are a few of the misogynistic dinosaurs out there, and a few who are well-intentioned but mistaken ("what you need is a revolver"- "no, I prefer a semiauto" or "ladies like to carry these little guns in their purses" -"I prefer to carry on my person, thanks). I've had more positive comments than negative. Now, I'd like for someone to explain to me how it's an emotional decision for a woman to carry a gun because she is most likely to be attacked by a male, who will be larger and stronger, and she needs the advantage; yet, it's a logical decision for a man to carry, even though he's larger and stronger than most potential attackers, and doesn't really need the advantage? Or did I miss something here?