Seized by the Manchester, New Hampshire PD for Open Carry - Page 2

mvpel · June 10, 2004, 08:43 PM

No late-breaking news to report. Folks may have seen the article on http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ prompted by the GOA release. Hopefully between my meeting with the Governor and this increased public scrutiny something will shake loose soon.

stand_watie · June 11, 2004, 03:41 AM

Do you have the Manchester chamber of commerce contact info?

I expect to be driving through that neck of the woods every now and again - I'd like to let the businesspeople of Manchester know why I want to avoid their city.

mvpel · June 11, 2004, 09:11 AM

Stand, the Chamber's website is http://www.manchester-chamber.org/

Theophorus · June 11, 2004, 12:46 PM

Here in AZ Open Carry is still "legal." So, this July 4th I will be carrying openly, and hope that many other freedom loving men will be doing the same. Stay in the fight, Michael.

Theo :-)

dev_null · June 11, 2004, 01:45 PM

I won't be, because I'll be on the Mall, in the heart of our Nation's Capital, on Independence Day. The irony has not escaped me.

mvpel · June 13, 2004, 06:52 PM

I was thankful that my wife was in the bathroom, and had no idea anything was going on. It would have been rather stressful for her, and would have cast a pall on her enjoyment of our evening out for our eleventh anniversary.

PATH · June 14, 2004, 12:29 AM

mvpel,

Would a rally by New Hampshire gun owners, with their guns being carriied openly and legally be appropriate at this point?

mvpel · June 14, 2004, 04:45 AM

My attorney is on the board of Gun Owners of New Hampshire, so she and her fellow board members would probably be the best judges of when and where that'd be helpful.

I think at least July 4 should be considered New Hampshire Open Carry Day, but that's up to each individual who faces the same kind of treatment at the hands of the cops as I did.

mvpel · June 15, 2004, 09:37 AM

I spoke with Dave Workman of GunWeek magazine and the Second Amendment Foundation again this morning - he had noticed the increased circulation of this story on the internet thanks to the Gun Owners of America alert and WorldNetDaily article.

Fjolnirsson · June 18, 2004, 06:18 AM

I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to fight this one out for all of us.
Is it just me, or are you getting less criticism here than you did at THR?
Maybe I should hang out here more often. I'm pretty sick of hearing people criticized for legal open carry.

Theophorus · June 18, 2004, 03:21 PM

"I'm pretty sick of hearing people criticized for legal open carry."

AMEN! Sometimes I feel as if I'm the only one.

Theo

Quartus · June 18, 2004, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Maybe I should hang out here more often. I'm pretty sick of hearing people criticized for legal open carry.

That's one of many good reasons for making the switch!

mvpel · June 24, 2004, 08:10 PM

Still no word from the PD - I'm thinking about stopping in there tomorrow to see if I can review and copy their training standards manual, the one they told my attorney would cost $3 per page in violation of the law.

pax · June 24, 2004, 08:32 PM

Quote:

...in violation of the law.

Give 'em hell, mvpel.

(Hey, I could start a poem like that...)

pax

I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell. -- Harry S Truman

The law, in all of these matters that I litigate, is written in clear black letters. I'm simply saying the government must obey the law. And if the law is bad, what better way to get it changed than to make sure it is enforced? – Edward D. Sloan, jr.

mvpel · July 9, 2004, 07:11 PM

Hey folks, sorry for the long delay in updates here. I've been busy with work, both remunerative and personal. We're up to the third coat of paint in one room, hopefully that'll be the last one.

Let's see... I spoke with Governor Benson again briefly, as he was the keynote speaker at the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance dinner that was held in Plymouth, NH, and reminded him of the situation.

Not too long after that, I got a letter from the Attorney General's office, saying that:

Quote:

It appears the response by the Manchester Police Officers was appropriate given the information they had upon entering Barnes and Nobles. [sic]

We wrote back to him, pointing out that thus far, we have no idea what information they had upon entering, thanks to the obstructionism we've faced in the MPDs refusals of RSA 91-A requests. I also stated that I felt confident that a Fourth Amendment claim would stick, and hoped that he'd assist me in avoiding having it come to that.

mvpel · July 10, 2004, 03:26 PM

News coming fast and furious lately - the Manchester PD has completed their investigation and come to the conclusion that my complaint was "unfounded."

The 911 tape - from Manchester only, not the cellular 911 dispatch center - has been provided to my attorney, and we are reviewing it for possible public release.

It appears that at this point that the position of the AG's office and the Manchester Police is that intentional or unintentional exposure of a firearm which "causes concern" is sufficient cause for a crowd of police officers to roust you, regardless of the legality of doing so.

It also appears that there may be a statewide database of permitholders. Developing...

I expect to have more information sometime after this coming Monday.

Once again, donations to the legal fund may be sent to Penny S. Dean, 59 Warren St., Concord, NH 03301-3951, for account PELLET-001.

Theophorus · July 14, 2004, 04:03 AM

I was reading tonight, and came across this. Interesting in light of what seems to be occuring in not only Manchester, but all over.

"The existence of a citizen militia responsible in some way for the security of a given community also might reintroduce responsibility into the administration of law enforcement. Although law enforcement officials formerly were liable...in trespass for improperly serving a search warrant or for breaking into the wrong hourse to make an arrest [certain legal concepts] now present almost insuperable barriers for citizens wishing to hold law enforcement officers accountable for mistakes or abuses. Further, the recent phenomenon of the "militarization" of law enforcement at all levels of government evokes sinister analogies to authoritarian regimes...Professional law enforcement officers clad in Nomex coveralls and face shields, after all, hardly seem to represent the community even in their own minds, much less in the minds of the many onlookers. Encouraging communities to take responsibility for their security might also have the effect of making those charged with law enforcement duties morally respnsible to their friends and neighbors, and thus help them exercise greater care and restraint in carrying out their law enforcement duties. Though many might raise the specter of vigilantism and argue for respecting the domain of law enforcement professionals, the recent behavior of some law enforcement agencies implies that a "professional" record is not always something to which communities should aspire. Likewise, charging members of a community with its security will sensitize them to the link between rights and responsibilities. Moreover, requiring that community members police the "rights-responsibilities" boundary will highlight the social cost that accompanies the exercise of rights in diverse and plural community."

Brannon P. Denning and Glenn Harland Reynolds, It Takes a Militia: A Communitarian Case For Compulsory Arms Bearing , William and Mary Bill of Rights Journal 185, 186. (1996)

This comes from a Washington University professor wishing to form an "ideology for the 1990's." He saw the RTKBA as something for a community to perform moreso than an individual right. While he may be a bit "communitarian" he does make some keen observations about the growing chasm between the police and our communities--the recent passage of a national right to carry law for LEO's being a prime example. I must agree that the Nomex masks are a bit perplexing as well.

Anyway, thought I'd share.

Theo :-)

Edward429451 · July 14, 2004, 10:19 AM

the Manchester PD has completed their investigation and come to the conclusion that my complaint was "unfounded."

It also appears that there may be a statewide database of permitholders. Developing...

SO what good is it to jump through the hoops to be psuedo legal with permits and such? They can do no wrong, we can do no right, we have no redress of grievances, merely serfs waiting confiscation. I wonder what comes after confiscation...?

Tell me again how we're supposed to respect this administration?

Quartus · July 14, 2004, 01:02 PM

Which administration? The one in Manchester?

Zedicus · July 14, 2004, 08:18 PM

mvpel, Best of Luck!
I like many others probably do, hope you nail these biggots to the back wall.

Edward429451 · July 15, 2004, 08:58 AM

The administration is my new PC word for LEO's everywhere. When I say LEO's, I get accused of being a cop basher. It's not the poor cops fault, it's the administration he works for and runs things.

State, local, federal...it's all the same to us serfs.

mvpel · July 19, 2004, 10:10 AM

My wife and I are planning a trip to Concord on Wednesday morning to listen to the tape and help Penny set up her audio digitizing software. I should be able to get a copy of the tape online in the next several days.

Apparently the caller hung up before giving their name, which is an interesting parallel to the Florida v. J.L. case. I'll know more once I hear the tape.

mvpel · July 22, 2004, 10:41 PM

Okay, we heard the tape. Some interesting details:

The caller made her call after having left the store.

She said that she had expressed her concern to the manager, who she said had walked past me, but she didn't think he'd called the police. Gee, lady, maybe that's because he has better judgement than you do!

She identified my wife, but the responding officers didn't seem to have the foggiest idea that she was there. If they thought I was a robber, despite all the facts screaming the contrary, don't you think they would have been quite interested in apprehending my wife as well? She had gone to the bathroom while I wandered over to the SciFi section where I was ambushed.

Based on the caller's description, I have a clear sense of exactly when she saw me - I was leaning over my wife's chair looking at sweater patterns.

She said that the section of the store was near the "Baby & Maternity" area near the restrooms, but that apparently got mangled into "Children's Section" by the dispatcher, which is entirely different - that section of the store has one entrance cordoned off by bookshelves, much like the CD/DVD section.

The caller refused to give her name, drawing a useful parallel to Florida v. J.L., in which the Supreme Court held:

Quote:

An anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not, without more, sufficient to justify a police officer's stop and frisk of that person. ... The tip lacked sufficient indicia of reliability to provide reasonable suspicion to make a Terry stop: It provided no predictive information and therefore left the police without means to test the informant's knowledge or credibility. See Alabama v. White, 496 U. S. 325, 327 . The contentions of Florida and the United States as amicus that the tip was reliable because it accurately described J. L.'s visible attributes misapprehend the reliability needed for a tip to justify a Terry stop. The reasonable suspicion here at issue requires that a tip be reliable in its assertion of illegality, not just in its tendency to identify a determinate person. This Court also declines to adopt the argument that the standard Terry analysis should be modified to license a "firearm exception," under which a tip alleging an illegal gun would justify a stop and frisk even if the accusation would fail standard pre-search reliability testing.

I've asked Penny to send the tape over to her usual A/V guy at JoyMark Video Services for cleanup, enhancement, and digitization, so I expect to have the audio available for everyone's download and review in the next week or so. That should cost about $75-$100, she said.

The digitized audio will provide additional useful information as to the exact timing of events. It includes everything - including radio chatter where they're running my Glock's serial number and my DL and Pistol Permit - from the transfer of the call to the clearing.

There's also another tape, from the cellphone 911 call center, which we are going to try to obtain - we only have the call after it was transferred over to Manchester.

I thought heard the dispatcher say that nothing turned up in a Manchester database of concealed carry permits, but she noted I have a Merrimack address. So it appears that there may not be a statewide database - I got the impression that she'd have had to call down to Merrimack to validate the permit. Once we get the tape online, you can see for yourself.

We're also going to do a bit more research and info-gathering here and there, I'll probably make an outing tomorrow. More soon...

Jamie Young · July 22, 2004, 11:19 PM

Quote:

I like many others probably do, hope you nail these biggots to the back wall.

Oh, the irony of that statement.

Funny how some people were called "less than patriotic" before and now we see he's a true Patriot fighting a good fight.

Give 'em hell, Michael!!!

Arizona Fusilier · July 25, 2004, 12:24 AM

"Speaking of Mas Ayoob, I wonder if he'd get involved or offer advice. He DOES live about 20 miles from the Barnes & Noble where this took place. Maybe you should have your lawyer contact him if he thinks Mas could help."

I wish he would visit this forum to give his own words.

But...

From everything I read, he would not have hesitated to jack up someone with a CCW permit for "flashing". Or even "printing".

Not saying he would have condoned the method used in this case, exactly. Again, I feel a little out of place commenting, but I'm not so sure where he would stand on the "open carry" issue in general. In the wealth of articles he's written, and the countless references to New Hampshire, he doesn't seem to acknowledge that right.

Someone once told me the only thing needed was a valid New hampshire hunting license. Anybody from N.H. care to comment?

June 11, 2004, 01:45 PM	#30
dev_null Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2002 Location: Austin TX Posts: 615	I won't be, because I'll be on the Mall, in the heart of our Nation's Capital, on Independence Day. The irony has not escaped me. __________________ The plural of anecdote is NOT "data."

June 14, 2004, 12:29 AM	#32
PATH Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 1999 Location: Rockland, NY Posts: 1,489	mvpel, Would a rally by New Hampshire gun owners, with their guns being carriied openly and legally be appropriate at this point? __________________ For sure it is an evil spite, and breaking to the heart, For Irishmen to watch a fight and not be taking part. -Robert Service 'How MacPherson Held The Floor'

June 18, 2004, 06:18 AM	#35
Fjolnirsson Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Oregon Posts: 48	Mvpel, I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to fight this one out for all of us. Is it just me, or are you getting less criticism here than you did at THR? Maybe I should hang out here more often. I'm pretty sick of hearing people criticized for legal open carry.

July 14, 2004, 04:03 AM	#42
Theophorus Junior Member Join Date: May 29, 2004 Posts: 8	Pertinent reading. I was reading tonight, and came across this. Interesting in light of what seems to be occuring in not only Manchester, but all over. "The existence of a citizen militia responsible in some way for the security of a given community also might reintroduce responsibility into the administration of law enforcement. Although law enforcement officials formerly were liable...in trespass for improperly serving a search warrant or for breaking into the wrong hourse to make an arrest [certain legal concepts] now present almost insuperable barriers for citizens wishing to hold law enforcement officers accountable for mistakes or abuses. Further, the recent phenomenon of the "militarization" of law enforcement at all levels of government evokes sinister analogies to authoritarian regimes...Professional law enforcement officers clad in Nomex coveralls and face shields, after all, hardly seem to represent the community even in their own minds, much less in the minds of the many onlookers. Encouraging communities to take responsibility for their security might also have the effect of making those charged with law enforcement duties morally respnsible to their friends and neighbors, and thus help them exercise greater care and restraint in carrying out their law enforcement duties. Though many might raise the specter of vigilantism and argue for respecting the domain of law enforcement professionals, the recent behavior of some law enforcement agencies implies that a "professional" record is not always something to which communities should aspire. Likewise, charging members of a community with its security will sensitize them to the link between rights and responsibilities. Moreover, requiring that community members police the "rights-responsibilities" boundary will highlight the social cost that accompanies the exercise of rights in diverse and plural community." Brannon P. Denning and Glenn Harland Reynolds, It Takes a Militia: A Communitarian Case For Compulsory Arms Bearing , William and Mary Bill of Rights Journal 185, 186. (1996) This comes from a Washington University professor wishing to form an "ideology for the 1990's." He saw the RTKBA as something for a community to perform moreso than an individual right. While he may be a bit "communitarian" he does make some keen observations about the growing chasm between the police and our communities--the recent passage of a national right to carry law for LEO's being a prime example. I must agree that the Nomex masks are a bit perplexing as well. Anyway, thought I'd share. Theo :-)

July 14, 2004, 01:02 PM	#44
Quartus Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,823	Which administration? The one in Manchester? __________________ . Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.

June 10, 2004, 08:43 PM	#26
mvpel Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: Hooksett, NH Posts: 1,847	No late-breaking news to report. Folks may have seen the article on http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ prompted by the GOA release. Hopefully between my meeting with the Governor and this increased public scrutiny something will shake loose soon.

June 11, 2004, 03:41 AM	#27
stand_watie Junior Member Join Date: May 20, 2004 Posts: 5	Do you have the Manchester chamber of commerce contact info? I expect to be driving through that neck of the woods every now and again - I'd like to let the businesspeople of Manchester know why I want to avoid their city.

June 11, 2004, 09:11 AM	#28
mvpel Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: Hooksett, NH Posts: 1,847	Stand, the Chamber's website is http://www.manchester-chamber.org/

June 11, 2004, 12:46 PM	#29
Theophorus Junior Member Join Date: May 29, 2004 Posts: 8	Here in AZ Open Carry is still "legal." So, this July 4th I will be carrying openly, and hope that many other freedom loving men will be doing the same. Stay in the fight, Michael. Theo :-)

June 13, 2004, 06:52 PM	#31
mvpel Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: Hooksett, NH Posts: 1,847	I was thankful that my wife was in the bathroom, and had no idea anything was going on. It would have been rather stressful for her, and would have cast a pall on her enjoyment of our evening out for our eleventh anniversary.

June 14, 2004, 04:45 AM	#33
mvpel Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: Hooksett, NH Posts: 1,847	My attorney is on the board of Gun Owners of New Hampshire, so she and her fellow board members would probably be the best judges of when and where that'd be helpful. I think at least July 4 should be considered New Hampshire Open Carry Day, but that's up to each individual who faces the same kind of treatment at the hands of the cops as I did.

June 15, 2004, 09:37 AM	#34
mvpel Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: Hooksett, NH Posts: 1,847	I spoke with Dave Workman of GunWeek magazine and the Second Amendment Foundation again this morning - he had noticed the increased circulation of this story on the internet thanks to the Gun Owners of America alert and WorldNetDaily article.

June 18, 2004, 03:21 PM	#36
Theophorus Junior Member Join Date: May 29, 2004 Posts: 8	"I'm pretty sick of hearing people criticized for legal open carry." AMEN! Sometimes I feel as if I'm the only one. Theo

June 24, 2004, 08:10 PM	#38
mvpel Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: Hooksett, NH Posts: 1,847	Still no word from the PD - I'm thinking about stopping in there tomorrow to see if I can review and copy their training standards manual, the one they told my attorney would cost $3 per page in violation of the law.

July 10, 2004, 03:26 PM	#41
mvpel Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: Hooksett, NH Posts: 1,847	News coming fast and furious lately - the Manchester PD has completed their investigation and come to the conclusion that my complaint was "unfounded." The 911 tape - from Manchester only, not the cellular 911 dispatch center - has been provided to my attorney, and we are reviewing it for possible public release. It appears that at this point that the position of the AG's office and the Manchester Police is that intentional or unintentional exposure of a firearm which "causes concern" is sufficient cause for a crowd of police officers to roust you, regardless of the legality of doing so. It also appears that there may be a statewide database of permitholders. Developing... I expect to have more information sometime after this coming Monday. Once again, donations to the legal fund may be sent to Penny S. Dean, 59 Warren St., Concord, NH 03301-3951, for account PELLET-001.

July 14, 2004, 10:19 AM	#43
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	the Manchester PD has completed their investigation and come to the conclusion that my complaint was "unfounded." It also appears that there may be a statewide database of permitholders. Developing... SO what good is it to jump through the hoops to be psuedo legal with permits and such? They can do no wrong, we can do no right, we have no redress of grievances, merely serfs waiting confiscation. I wonder what comes after confiscation...? Tell me again how we're supposed to respect this administration?

July 14, 2004, 08:18 PM	#45
Zedicus Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Hell Posts: 26	mvpel, Best of Luck! I like many others probably do, hope you nail these biggots to the back wall.

July 15, 2004, 08:58 AM	#46
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	The administration is my new PC word for LEO's everywhere. When I say LEO's, I get accused of being a cop basher. It's not the poor cops fault, it's the administration he works for and runs things. State, local, federal...it's all the same to us serfs.

July 19, 2004, 10:10 AM	#47
mvpel Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: Hooksett, NH Posts: 1,847	My wife and I are planning a trip to Concord on Wednesday morning to listen to the tape and help Penny set up her audio digitizing software. I should be able to get a copy of the tape online in the next several days. Apparently the caller hung up before giving their name, which is an interesting parallel to the Florida v. J.L. case. I'll know more once I hear the tape.

July 25, 2004, 12:24 AM	#50
Arizona Fusilier Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2000 Posts: 1,082	"Speaking of Mas Ayoob, I wonder if he'd get involved or offer advice. He DOES live about 20 miles from the Barnes & Noble where this took place. Maybe you should have your lawyer contact him if he thinks Mas could help." I wish he would visit this forum to give his own words. But... From everything I read, he would not have hesitated to jack up someone with a CCW permit for "flashing". Or even "printing". Not saying he would have condoned the method used in this case, exactly. Again, I feel a little out of place commenting, but I'm not so sure where he would stand on the "open carry" issue in general. In the wealth of articles he's written, and the countless references to New Hampshire, he doesn't seem to acknowledge that right. Someone once told me the only thing needed was a valid New hampshire hunting license. Anybody from N.H. care to comment?