Good vs. bad of installing a laser sight on pistol? - Page 2

Edward429451 · May 23, 2002, 07:15 AM

I was being arrested once on a misdemeanor charge, was already in cuffs and a cop pointed a laser equipped gun at me.

I snapped and screamed at the cop "Get that damn laser off me, you A**H**E, cant you see I'm already subdued?"

So much for intimidation. Probably stupid on my part, but the look on his face was priceless. He lowered the weapon.

Took my laser off my Glock and it lays in the drawer gathering dust. Would rather rely on muscle memory and practice than gimmicks.

Christopher II · May 23, 2002, 08:09 AM

Handy for some types of training (although I'd rather hook them up to a RIKA trainer, that can get a bit expensive) and essential if you're using NVGs. Other than that, I don't like them. Keep in mind that lasers are zeroed for one range and one range only. If you sight your laser in at 7 yards and the badguy is at 15, you'll be off target.

- Chris

Eric Larsen · May 23, 2002, 08:41 AM

I have a CTC Laser grip....(like you all didnt know that by now

)
Most of the points made are absolutely correct...but a few are absolute BS also.

Never rely on it as a primary targeting or sight acquisition method...train with your sights first and foremost. Truth.

Its a great training method for trigger and breathing control due to the red light dancing around.....Great Truth.

Its great for teaching better point shooting and for those moments when you cant "get on the front sight" Truth.

It is a dead bust or give away regarding your location at night.
Not necessarily true....I tried this. I had my son aim at a tree
I was behind (yes, it was the SP and the cylinder was open and empty) The red glow from the gun is hardly noticeable until your
almost looking right at it. So I will argue that point ...somewhat.

When you are "on target" and dont have your finger on the trigger, you block the laser with your finger....NNNNNNNTTTTT!
Try again. I use the same grip with and without my CTC and it does not get blocked. See attached pic.

Ive played with other styles of lasers...the originals that you almost had to Duct Tape to your gun....external or internal wires....etc. They dont have the same technology as the CTC.

Im very impressed with my little red light. Ive shot 500 rnds of full house 357 ammo from my SP and the laser is still dead on POA. I thought I would be adjusting it...not the case.

Lasers are for some and not for others...Its like the arguement of 9mm vs 45's, or cond 1 vs cond 3....to each there own. There is no "gospil" to be passed on. They have a purpose as long as you use it properly.

Shoot well

wolfman97 · May 23, 2002, 10:21 AM

Every time I have ever put iron sights on a target they were in constant motion. And that included the times I was strapped in to a target rifle with sling in the prone position, with far more support than you are ever likely to get with a handgun. Even if you are in that position really solid, you can still watch the sights move with your heartbeat. The laser just shows you accurately how much you are moving -- far better than an ordinary sight picture does.

djsjd · May 23, 2002, 10:47 AM

Had some Crimson Trace laser grips on a Beretta 92F. Found that when I gripped the gun to fire, the dot drifted as well. Had a devil of a time sighting it in till I realized that my grip alone was altering the POA / POI. Sold 'em soon after that...

Logistar · May 23, 2002, 01:07 PM

I think lasers are GREAT for training. I attached the switch to the trigger on a Rugar MK II. I have my daughter "practice" without ammo. She follows my instructions. When she "fires" the laser turns on and I can see how accurate the shot would be. (Also, Laser had better not EVER turn on unless instructed to fire!) We can work on a lot of things without firing a shot.

I can also slip in a snap cap (she doesn't know which shell it is) and watch the laser to see if she is flinching, etc. (It is sometimes hard for me to see it but the laser really shows it.)

I like it for defense too. Pointing without the sights might be an advantage. I see it as a positive option as long as you are fine WITHOUT it also. (What if laser fails... it's too bright outside to see, etc. ?)

What scares me is alignment. The laser I am using for my daughter is one that is installed on the front of the trigger guard.

I checked it once to find that the laser was WAY OFF target. I suppose it must have gotter bumped or something. BUT, if I had been attacked and used the laser, I would have likely missed the entire target off to the left despite perfect COM positioning of the laser.

I think they have their advantages but be sure you know what you are doing.

Logistar

Jack Carson · May 23, 2002, 04:06 PM

...and probably have their place in a few social situations but are best left off your primary defensive sidearm. They can definitely be a help to the coach of a new shooter as it helps the coach "see" the student's steadiness, etc.

Relying on equipment that is battery powered is something to be avoided as much as possible.

As far as the intimidation factor goes, if I were to see the little red dot on me I believe I would be so "intimidated" as to sharply sidestep, draw and fire on the a$#H*&e who was pointing it at me.

Just my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it.
Jack

444 · May 23, 2002, 09:51 PM

I can't agree about the "intimidation factor". It seems to me, if someone had just climbed in one of your windows, or just jimmyed the lock on your door and was standing there in the dark..... and you shine that laser in their eye, it is going to blind them at least. It will also alert them that you have a gun trained on them at that moment and if they think they can out draw you, you squeze the trigger.
I agree that I wouldn't mount something like this on a handgun. But after seeing my girlfriend using that carbine with a laser, I was impressed with how quickly she was hitting everything she tried to hit. She thought it was the neatest thing she ever saw and I had to almost take the rifle away from her to get her to leave. Again, she had almost no shooting experience at all prior to this day.

Greybeard · May 23, 2002, 11:35 PM

Like many here, I too had no use for lasers for years. First purchase of one made by Daisy (built in air rifle muzzle) for Hunter Ed. purposes proved quite helpful and I subsequently obtained and tested various types for handgun training. In general the cheap ones ($50 to $150) that mount on trigger guards support "You generally get what you pay for" and can be quite difficult to keep from vibrating loose with much use.

Altho pricey, I have been most pleased with Crimson Trace replacement grips on two S&W J-frames, one a .22 trainer and the other a personal carry .357. Great for helping students see "arc of movement" and more quickly understand what is required to reduce it. Also especially helpful with people with "bifocal eyes" since the laser does essentially extend the front sight onto the target.

Quicker target acquistion after recoil than iron front sight and gun does not necessarily have to be at eye level for precise shot placement from awkward positions.

Like individual guns I've found that after a little famiarization and practice, I can make the "overmolded grip" laser on .357 do what I exactly want it to do. Contrary to some above, I have not found trigger finger (outside of the trigger guard until sight coming onto target) blocking laser beam - unless I want it to. In addition to master on/off switch on bottom, on/off function can also be controlled with amount of pressure of middle finger. The CT unit on Model 340 has never lost zero and I've found battery life to be quite acceptable.

I can understand how the "cheapies" or some other designs can turn some people off forever, yet I'm one who does not regret the investment on what I view as the best of the breed.

bountyh · May 24, 2002, 12:44 PM

In LE work lasers have a legitimate use: in low-light, they allow quick targeting with sufficient accuracy to be lethal. As for intimidation, the "red dot on the chest" thing intimidates some people and really pisses off others. Personally, I don't see the use for such an expensive item for target shooting: every laser-equipped pistol I've seen was being shot by somebody who couldn't even do a smooth trigger pull. The dot would be on the target, boom, and then a hole would appear somewhere about 18" away. Seems silly, they think the hole just magically appears where the dot is like they saw on Miami Vice. I agree with the guy who said spend the money on a case of ammo and learn how to shoot the gun.

ehenz · May 24, 2002, 02:46 PM

Is my computer acting up or is this thread a year and a half old?

444 · May 24, 2002, 07:28 PM

One point of this I would like to get some feedback on: We keep talking about the intimidation factor of shining a laser on the chest. I keep talking about the intimidation factor of shining it in the eye. As was mentioned, someone might not even know it was shining on their chest. But there is no missing it in the eye. In fact I would imagine it might be painful; if nothing else it would temporarily blind someone. There is a reason why they warn you not to look into the laser. Then there is the often stated position of this "pissing someone off". So what ? If you are holding a gun on someone, it is assumed that you are in fear of your life. If they "get pissed off" you squeze the trigger. The guy that thinks he is going to jump to the side and draw is likely in for a rude awakening.

wolfman97 · May 24, 2002, 10:32 PM

Quote:

I can't agree about the "intimidation factor". It seems to me, if someone had just climbed in one of your windows, or just jimmyed the lock on your door and was standing there in the dark..... and you shine that laser in their eye, it is going to blind them at least. It will also alert them that you have a gun trained on them at that moment and if they think they can out draw you, you squeze the trigger.

If some stranger is standing in my home in the dark, uninvited, then there isn't any good explanation that I can think of that would stop me from killing them. The laser in his eyes may or may not be intimidating, depending upon their frame of mind. It would intimidate me, but I wouldn't be stupid enough to be in your house at 3 AM uninvited.

On the other hand, a couple of rounds of .40 S&W will intimidate anyone no matter their frame of mind, and then give me all the time in the world to discuss intimidation with him afterwards.

As for outdrawing you, as I believe I have seen the self-defense experts explain it, if he is twenty feet or less from you then there is a pretty reasonable chance that he could get across the room to you before you could react fast enough to pull the trigger.

In any event, if you shine the light in his eyes instead of shooting him, then you are taking the chance that he actually will be faster than you are, or will dive for cover faster than you can get a shot off. That may be a slim chance, but if you lose the consequences are going to be pretty serious.

On the other hand, I am pretty certain that I am faster than almost anyone who already has two .40 Cor-Bons in his chest. I am getting on in years, and perhaps a bit more cranky, so potential burglars should be aware that there just won't be any fair fights or chances to change their mind about burglary on my property. If he wasn't intimidated by the lock on the window, then that's the last warning he gets.

wolfman97 · May 24, 2002, 10:44 PM

Quote:

One point of this I would like to get some feedback on: We keep talking about the intimidation factor of shining a laser on the chest. I keep talking about the intimidation factor of shining it in the eye. As was mentioned, someone might not even know it was shining on their chest. But there is no missing it in the eye. In fact I would imagine it might be painful; if nothing else it would temporarily blind someone. There is a reason why they warn you not to look into the laser. Then there is the often stated position of this "pissing someone off". So what ? If you are holding a gun on someone, it is assumed that you are in fear of your life. If they "get pissed off" you squeze the trigger. The guy that thinks he is going to jump to the side and draw is likely in for a rude awakening.

1) If it was in my home, I don't believe in intimidating them with anything less than muzzle blasts. The law does not require me to retreat or listen to apologies inside my own home, so I just won't.

2) If it was outside my home, then I am up against state law that says pointing firearms at people is a very serious crime. Therefore, I am not likely to use the laser as intimidation outside the house unless I really am in fear of my life. And, if I think I can justify in a court of law that I really was in fear of my life, then I am probably going to shoot them and not take the chance that it will piss them off, or they move out of the way, or draw their own gun and try to outshoot me, or whatever.

That's just me. But then, I have seen a few people come out of prison and I don't have all that much faith in the idea that all people are sensible when a gun is in their face. I don't gamble very much in Las Vegas, either.

444 · May 24, 2002, 11:46 PM

This whole intimidation thing to me, is an interesting aspect of lasers for several reasons. The first time I ever read about a laser being used on a firearm was many years ago in an article about the American 180 submachine gun. It had a laser on it that was huge by todays standards. They mentioned in the article that one of the potential uses of it would be in prisons, I guess during a riot or something, to shine it in the prisioners eyes and attempt to persuade them to listen to reason instand of mowing down the crowd with a full auto burst. As far as I know, this idea never caught on. Then there are the numerous threads I have read on this board or stories I have seen on television where some clown came home drunk or whatever and tried to get in the wrong house. I can see where this would be easy to do in a housing tract, an apartment, and I have even opened the wrong door on a hotel room. In one case a guy was going to a halloween costume party at a house he had never been to before, he spoke minimal English and was shot by the homeowner. The party goer thought he was just having fun with the party host only he was at the wrong house. There was a thread on here not long ago about a dude that snuck in after hours to visit the guy's daughter. On and on. In my case, I live in a rural area, and am single so no one could be entering my house for any reason, so it isn't a factor. But there are cases where shoot first, ask questions later isn't a real good idea. Then there is the moral dilema that does along with all of the above. Some might believe that they are going to shoot only as a last resort and would like to give the guy a chance to reconsider their options. Many would disagree with that, and I have no problem with it. I personally don't know what I would do and before I decided, I would have to get my Rottweiler off the guys throat. The biggest thought I had on the subject was in relation to the girl I was dating that I mentioned in my previous posts. She shot very well with the laser and almost no experience using a 9mm carbine. I could see where using that weapon in a home defense situation would be good for her. She could stand inside her bedroom with very little of her body exposed and hit an intruder with the laser. If you are going to hit the guy with the laser at all, why not hit him in the eyes ? Then reevaluate. She has a teenage son, is it him ? Is it one of his friends ? Is it a girlfriend ? Is it her mother, who has a key to the house ? When you jump up from a sound sleep to investigate a noise, you might not be firing on all cylinders. I know that she would definitely not shoot first and ask questions later. She doesn't have that mentality. However, she did tell me that if it came down to it, she would shoot and not lose any sleep over it. So, this might give her (or someone like her) one more tool to work with. And might avert a terrible mistake or a long drawn out legal battle that she can't pay for.

Eric Larsen · May 25, 2002, 09:15 AM

djsjd
"Had some Crimson Trace laser grips on a Beretta 92F. Found that when I gripped the gun to fire, the dot drifted as well. Had a devil of a time sighting it in till I realized that my grip alone was altering the POA / POI. Sold 'em soon after that..."

IMO, you probably got a bad unit...and IMO only, Id try it again.
My SP101 with full house loads wont knock the laser off POA/POI after many many rounds so far. The quality of the product is first rate and I would recommend them for anyone who is thinking of trying them.

Shoot well

wolfman97 · May 25, 2002, 11:57 AM

I agree that are instances when shoot first is perhaps not the best idea. But, I am in one of those situation, too, where friends appearing in the middle of the night in my living room is unlikely. I live with my wife and daughter. Therefore, I pretty much know automatically that any male figure in the dark shouldn't be there.

There is always a slim chance that it could be one of my daughter's boyfriends, but she makes it a point to tell all of them that I am armed and dangerous, so don't fool around. The last time one of them came over at 2 AM he was so respectful that he stood quietly fifteen feet outside the front door (didn't even knock) and waited for me to notice that the motion sensor lights were on. (I am often up late) Besides, whenever I was playing the role of boyfriend I certainly wouldn't have gone in the house uninvited. If I had, I would have expected the lord of the manor to take serious offense in one manner or another -- meaning the relationship was probably over, at least, anyway. If these boyfriends aren't bright enough to recognize that then Darwin's natural selection will probably take over. As some of my daughter's friends proved with alcohol and cars, sometimes stupidity is a fatal disease.

As it is, every male that has come over to my place is aware of the situation and treats both my home and me with great respect. I think that just letting them know my attitude in no uncertain terms has probably raised their IQs a few points. It certainly seems that way, anyway.

Even if I happened to recognize the person as a "friend" (what's a friend doing in my house unannounced at that hour, anyway?) before I shot, he would still be in serious trouble. He would have some tall explaining to do, and better not wave his hands while he is talking.

Outside the house, it would be a whole different matter - but I would still be up against the fact that I would probably would be up for a felony any time I pointed that laser without good cause to shoot in the first place (and if you have good legal cause to shoot then why are you taking any additional risks?) . But, inside my house, I know who is supposed to be there and who isn't.

Edward429451 · May 26, 2002, 10:08 AM

Been thinkin about this intimidation factor a little...Doesnt that kind of go against the grain of proper procedural weapons response? i.e., 'No warning shots', if your weapon leaves its holster, you better be in fear of grave bodily harm. If you go waving it around in an attempt to (let him see the dot) intimidate him, then you aren't really in fear of grave bodily harm, now are you? Just a thought...

Helds · May 26, 2002, 10:14 AM

I'll bet you can guess the age of the shooter by his response to the laser question. When you age and your vision deteriorates and you need reading glasses and bifocals, you can't focus on the rear sight, the front sight and the target. You can't hit what you can't see. The laser is simply wonderful. No screwing around with sights. You just put that dot on the target and the bullets all go in the same hole. My biggest problem is there isn't anything to put the dot on after you shoot the center out of the target. The training aid is a bonus. You can see how steady you are by the movement of the dot and you can clearly see when you pull a shot.
Having said that, there are problems with the Crimson Trace unit. I have an average size hand, but when I grip my 1911, the switch isn't sufficiently depressed, so I had to tape cardboard over the switch to keep it depressed. Looks like hell. I wouldn't put up with it if it wasn't so acurate. I don't have that problem when I shoot left handed. I think they put the switch on the wrong side.
I am not qualified to comment on lasers for combat, since I've never used them in combat and would never use them as my only sight. They also are useless in daylight. But in low light or an indoor range, I simply can not attain this accuracy with conventional sights. To all you shooters who knock lasers- hey, someday you'll get old and blind too. Long live Viagra and lasers.

Edward429451 · May 26, 2002, 12:20 PM

I wasn't really knocking lasers par se, just using them for intimidation. And a specific cop who drew down on me after I was in cuffs already. (which was really the gun and not the laser that p*ssed me off). His cohort should have been pissed also, he was right by me in the field of fire.

They're just not for me personally, thats all.

Anybody want to buy/trade for a Laser Devices model BA-2 laser? Fits Glock 20's and 21's...

444 · May 26, 2002, 01:16 PM

"if your weapon leaves its holster, you better be in fear of grave bodily harm"

Edward, I have emphasized that I was talking about a specific senario; home defense for an inexperenced shooter using a carbine. If you hear a noise, get up from your bed to investigate you are in fear for your life. BUT, that doesn't nessessarily mean you open fire on the first thing you see. You want to make sure that the target is a threat. You can use a flashlight, but that is one more thing to remember to pick up. It also is dependant on batteries giving you something else to maintain and it takes one of your hands to use. It gives away your position and ruins your night vision. You can accomplish the same thing with a laser without the drawbacks. The laser is mounted on the weapon; if you have the weapon, you have the laser. Yes you have to check the batteries but I am assuming that you maintaint he weapon, how hard would it be to press the laser switch to ensure that the batteries are still good. When you change out the ammo in your mags, change out the batteries in the laser. As you investigate the noise, you stay behind cover with only the rifle and your eyes checking out the room. If you see someone you light them up in the face with the laser. If it is a friendly, they will let you know. If it is a threat, you may have temporarily blinded them moving the advantage to your side of the scale. If you need to shoot, the dot is on the target. And you may cause the guy to rethink his position and decide that when someone obviously has the drop on them and they have a firing solution it might be a good idea to give up saving you tremendous emotional distress and legal bills defending your actions. I personally fall into the group that would shoot only as an absolute last resort. I would like to have as many tools as possible to attempt to difuse the situation without turning my whole life up side down by having to use deadly force. You mention warning shots. Good point, this isn't a warning shot but allows you to possibly accomplish the same thing without firing a shot.

Bullshooter · May 26, 2002, 02:03 PM

This sits on the nightstand. I don't depend on the laser, but it makes target acquisition a lot quicker in a high stress situation.

Edward429451 · May 26, 2002, 06:08 PM

Oh, sorry. I didnt go back and read the entire thread just the new posts and was really thinkin more to on the street when I made my comments.

Unintentional experiment from a mirror has shown that you dont go blind instantly from a laser in the eye, I know. It must take 2 or 3 seconds of eye contact cause I didnt lose any vision at all...
(looked like a red kalaidescope with red shiny sparkles thru it, it looked alive almost.)

wolfman97 · May 26, 2002, 09:01 PM

Quote:

You want to make sure that the target is a threat.

What's he doing in my house uninvited, waking me up in the middle of the night if he isn't a threat?

444 · May 26, 2002, 09:13 PM

Wofman, if you read my prior post which is about two above your last post, you will find a number of senarios I mentioned that have either been on the "news", discussed on TFL, or things that are possible regarding why someone may be in your house that is not a threat.
You make the following statement: "If some stranger is standing in my home in the dark, uninvited, then there isn't any good explanation that I can think of that would stop me from killing them. "
#1 the operative word here is stranger. Before you go wild, it is nice to determine that it is in fact a stranger. Obviously this vaires from person to person. As I mentioned, some people have given keys to other family members that don't live with them. They may have needed to come to your house for something and didn't want to wake you (granted, that woud be stupid on their part but it doesn't mean you need to kill them). It might be a member of your immediate family but because you were just awakened, it is dark, and you have the adreniline pumping, you need to identify the target. Even if it is a stanger, I noted a few recent episodes where someone made a mistake in coming into the house. There have been a number of such cases discussed on this board. Then of course there are those of us who would rather not kill other people unless we have to. That is a moral dilema we all have to face. Of course then we get into the fact that we have to deal with the rest of society. The law, criminal attorneys, civil attorneys, etc. The point of this thread is to discuss the pros and cons of using lasers on firearms. If you would open fire on anyone in your home, that is your business but isn't really related to the topic at hand.

May 23, 2002, 08:09 AM	#27
Christopher II Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 1999 Location: Germantown, MD Posts: 2,349	Handy for some types of training (although I'd rather hook them up to a RIKA trainer, that can get a bit expensive) and essential if you're using NVGs. Other than that, I don't like them. Keep in mind that lasers are zeroed for one range and one range only. If you sight your laser in at 7 yards and the badguy is at 15, you'll be off target. - Chris __________________ "There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him." – Robert Heinlein "Contrary to popular belief, your vote does not matter, and you cannot make a difference." - Bob Murphy, "Picking Neither of Two Evils" My PGP Public Key

May 23, 2002, 10:47 AM	#30
djsjd Member Join Date: October 1, 2001 Location: US of A Posts: 80	Had some Crimson Trace laser grips on a Beretta 92F. Found that when I gripped the gun to fire, the dot drifted as well. Had a devil of a time sighting it in till I realized that my grip alone was altering the POA / POI. Sold 'em soon after that... __________________ It's universal: any action will result in an equal and opposite reaction.

May 23, 2002, 04:06 PM	#32
Jack Carson Senior Member Join Date: July 13, 2001 Location: Central Oklahoma Posts: 275	Fine for training I suppose... ...and probably have their place in a few social situations but are best left off your primary defensive sidearm. They can definitely be a help to the coach of a new shooter as it helps the coach "see" the student's steadiness, etc. Relying on equipment that is battery powered is something to be avoided as much as possible. As far as the intimidation factor goes, if I were to see the little red dot on me I believe I would be so "intimidated" as to sharply sidestep, draw and fire on the a$#H*&e who was pointing it at me. Just my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it. Jack __________________ Jack C.

May 23, 2002, 11:35 PM	#34
Greybeard Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2002 Location: Denton County Texas Posts: 686	Like many here, I too had no use for lasers for years. First purchase of one made by Daisy (built in air rifle muzzle) for Hunter Ed. purposes proved quite helpful and I subsequently obtained and tested various types for handgun training. In general the cheap ones ($50 to $150) that mount on trigger guards support "You generally get what you pay for" and can be quite difficult to keep from vibrating loose with much use. Altho pricey, I have been most pleased with Crimson Trace replacement grips on two S&W J-frames, one a .22 trainer and the other a personal carry .357. Great for helping students see "arc of movement" and more quickly understand what is required to reduce it. Also especially helpful with people with "bifocal eyes" since the laser does essentially extend the front sight onto the target. Quicker target acquistion after recoil than iron front sight and gun does not necessarily have to be at eye level for precise shot placement from awkward positions. Like individual guns I've found that after a little famiarization and practice, I can make the "overmolded grip" laser on .357 do what I exactly want it to do. Contrary to some above, I have not found trigger finger (outside of the trigger guard until sight coming onto target) blocking laser beam - unless I want it to. In addition to master on/off switch on bottom, on/off function can also be controlled with amount of pressure of middle finger. The CT unit on Model 340 has never lost zero and I've found battery life to be quite acceptable. I can understand how the "cheapies" or some other designs can turn some people off forever, yet I'm one who does not regret the investment on what I view as the best of the breed. __________________ www.dentoncountysports.com A Private Palace for Pistol Proficiency

May 25, 2002, 09:15 AM	#41
Eric Larsen Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2001 Location: Bountiful....Ut. Posts: 3,226	djsjd "Had some Crimson Trace laser grips on a Beretta 92F. Found that when I gripped the gun to fire, the dot drifted as well. Had a devil of a time sighting it in till I realized that my grip alone was altering the POA / POI. Sold 'em soon after that..." IMO, you probably got a bad unit...and IMO only, Id try it again. My SP101 with full house loads wont knock the laser off POA/POI after many many rounds so far. The quality of the product is first rate and I would recommend them for anyone who is thinking of trying them. Shoot well __________________ If they dont know you have a gun.....then I did alright! If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice......Rush Last edited by Eric Larsen; May 25, 2002 at 10:53 AM.

May 23, 2002, 07:15 AM	#26
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I was being arrested once on a misdemeanor charge, was already in cuffs and a cop pointed a laser equipped gun at me. I snapped and screamed at the cop "Get that damn laser off me, you AHE, cant you see I'm already subdued?" So much for intimidation. Probably stupid on my part, but the look on his face was priceless. He lowered the weapon. Took my laser off my Glock and it lays in the drawer gathering dust. Would rather rely on muscle memory and practice than gimmicks.

May 23, 2002, 10:21 AM	#29
wolfman97 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2002 Posts: 421	Every time I have ever put iron sights on a target they were in constant motion. And that included the times I was strapped in to a target rifle with sling in the prone position, with far more support than you are ever likely to get with a handgun. Even if you are in that position really solid, you can still watch the sights move with your heartbeat. The laser just shows you accurately how much you are moving -- far better than an ordinary sight picture does.

May 23, 2002, 01:07 PM	#31
Logistar Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2001 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 298	I think lasers are GREAT for training. I attached the switch to the trigger on a Rugar MK II. I have my daughter "practice" without ammo. She follows my instructions. When she "fires" the laser turns on and I can see how accurate the shot would be. (Also, Laser had better not EVER turn on unless instructed to fire!) We can work on a lot of things without firing a shot. I can also slip in a snap cap (she doesn't know which shell it is) and watch the laser to see if she is flinching, etc. (It is sometimes hard for me to see it but the laser really shows it.) I like it for defense too. Pointing without the sights might be an advantage. I see it as a positive option as long as you are fine WITHOUT it also. (What if laser fails... it's too bright outside to see, etc. ?) What scares me is alignment. The laser I am using for my daughter is one that is installed on the front of the trigger guard. I checked it once to find that the laser was WAY OFF target. I suppose it must have gotter bumped or something. BUT, if I had been attacked and used the laser, I would have likely missed the entire target off to the left despite perfect COM positioning of the laser. I think they have their advantages but be sure you know what you are doing. Logistar

May 23, 2002, 09:51 PM	#33
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	I can't agree about the "intimidation factor". It seems to me, if someone had just climbed in one of your windows, or just jimmyed the lock on your door and was standing there in the dark..... and you shine that laser in their eye, it is going to blind them at least. It will also alert them that you have a gun trained on them at that moment and if they think they can out draw you, you squeze the trigger. I agree that I wouldn't mount something like this on a handgun. But after seeing my girlfriend using that carbine with a laser, I was impressed with how quickly she was hitting everything she tried to hit. She thought it was the neatest thing she ever saw and I had to almost take the rifle away from her to get her to leave. Again, she had almost no shooting experience at all prior to this day.

May 24, 2002, 12:44 PM	#35
bountyh Junior member Join Date: November 1, 2001 Location: NaziFornia Posts: 908	In LE work lasers have a legitimate use: in low-light, they allow quick targeting with sufficient accuracy to be lethal. As for intimidation, the "red dot on the chest" thing intimidates some people and really pisses off others. Personally, I don't see the use for such an expensive item for target shooting: every laser-equipped pistol I've seen was being shot by somebody who couldn't even do a smooth trigger pull. The dot would be on the target, boom, and then a hole would appear somewhere about 18" away. Seems silly, they think the hole just magically appears where the dot is like they saw on Miami Vice. I agree with the guy who said spend the money on a case of ammo and learn how to shoot the gun.

May 24, 2002, 02:46 PM	#36
ehenz Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 1999 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 308	Is my computer acting up or is this thread a year and a half old?

May 24, 2002, 07:28 PM	#37
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	One point of this I would like to get some feedback on: We keep talking about the intimidation factor of shining a laser on the chest. I keep talking about the intimidation factor of shining it in the eye. As was mentioned, someone might not even know it was shining on their chest. But there is no missing it in the eye. In fact I would imagine it might be painful; if nothing else it would temporarily blind someone. There is a reason why they warn you not to look into the laser. Then there is the often stated position of this "pissing someone off". So what ? If you are holding a gun on someone, it is assumed that you are in fear of your life. If they "get pissed off" you squeze the trigger. The guy that thinks he is going to jump to the side and draw is likely in for a rude awakening.

May 24, 2002, 11:46 PM	#40
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	This whole intimidation thing to me, is an interesting aspect of lasers for several reasons. The first time I ever read about a laser being used on a firearm was many years ago in an article about the American 180 submachine gun. It had a laser on it that was huge by todays standards. They mentioned in the article that one of the potential uses of it would be in prisons, I guess during a riot or something, to shine it in the prisioners eyes and attempt to persuade them to listen to reason instand of mowing down the crowd with a full auto burst. As far as I know, this idea never caught on. Then there are the numerous threads I have read on this board or stories I have seen on television where some clown came home drunk or whatever and tried to get in the wrong house. I can see where this would be easy to do in a housing tract, an apartment, and I have even opened the wrong door on a hotel room. In one case a guy was going to a halloween costume party at a house he had never been to before, he spoke minimal English and was shot by the homeowner. The party goer thought he was just having fun with the party host only he was at the wrong house. There was a thread on here not long ago about a dude that snuck in after hours to visit the guy's daughter. On and on. In my case, I live in a rural area, and am single so no one could be entering my house for any reason, so it isn't a factor. But there are cases where shoot first, ask questions later isn't a real good idea. Then there is the moral dilema that does along with all of the above. Some might believe that they are going to shoot only as a last resort and would like to give the guy a chance to reconsider their options. Many would disagree with that, and I have no problem with it. I personally don't know what I would do and before I decided, I would have to get my Rottweiler off the guys throat. The biggest thought I had on the subject was in relation to the girl I was dating that I mentioned in my previous posts. She shot very well with the laser and almost no experience using a 9mm carbine. I could see where using that weapon in a home defense situation would be good for her. She could stand inside her bedroom with very little of her body exposed and hit an intruder with the laser. If you are going to hit the guy with the laser at all, why not hit him in the eyes ? Then reevaluate. She has a teenage son, is it him ? Is it one of his friends ? Is it a girlfriend ? Is it her mother, who has a key to the house ? When you jump up from a sound sleep to investigate a noise, you might not be firing on all cylinders. I know that she would definitely not shoot first and ask questions later. She doesn't have that mentality. However, she did tell me that if it came down to it, she would shoot and not lose any sleep over it. So, this might give her (or someone like her) one more tool to work with. And might avert a terrible mistake or a long drawn out legal battle that she can't pay for.

May 25, 2002, 11:57 AM	#42
wolfman97 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2002 Posts: 421	I agree that are instances when shoot first is perhaps not the best idea. But, I am in one of those situation, too, where friends appearing in the middle of the night in my living room is unlikely. I live with my wife and daughter. Therefore, I pretty much know automatically that any male figure in the dark shouldn't be there. There is always a slim chance that it could be one of my daughter's boyfriends, but she makes it a point to tell all of them that I am armed and dangerous, so don't fool around. The last time one of them came over at 2 AM he was so respectful that he stood quietly fifteen feet outside the front door (didn't even knock) and waited for me to notice that the motion sensor lights were on. (I am often up late) Besides, whenever I was playing the role of boyfriend I certainly wouldn't have gone in the house uninvited. If I had, I would have expected the lord of the manor to take serious offense in one manner or another -- meaning the relationship was probably over, at least, anyway. If these boyfriends aren't bright enough to recognize that then Darwin's natural selection will probably take over. As some of my daughter's friends proved with alcohol and cars, sometimes stupidity is a fatal disease. As it is, every male that has come over to my place is aware of the situation and treats both my home and me with great respect. I think that just letting them know my attitude in no uncertain terms has probably raised their IQs a few points. It certainly seems that way, anyway. Even if I happened to recognize the person as a "friend" (what's a friend doing in my house unannounced at that hour, anyway?) before I shot, he would still be in serious trouble. He would have some tall explaining to do, and better not wave his hands while he is talking. Outside the house, it would be a whole different matter - but I would still be up against the fact that I would probably would be up for a felony any time I pointed that laser without good cause to shoot in the first place (and if you have good legal cause to shoot then why are you taking any additional risks?) . But, inside my house, I know who is supposed to be there and who isn't.

May 26, 2002, 10:08 AM	#43
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Been thinkin about this intimidation factor a little...Doesnt that kind of go against the grain of proper procedural weapons response? i.e., 'No warning shots', if your weapon leaves its holster, you better be in fear of grave bodily harm. If you go waving it around in an attempt to (let him see the dot) intimidate him, then you aren't really in fear of grave bodily harm, now are you? Just a thought...

May 26, 2002, 10:14 AM	#44
Helds Junior Member Join Date: May 26, 2002 Posts: 12	I'll bet you can guess the age of the shooter by his response to the laser question. When you age and your vision deteriorates and you need reading glasses and bifocals, you can't focus on the rear sight, the front sight and the target. You can't hit what you can't see. The laser is simply wonderful. No screwing around with sights. You just put that dot on the target and the bullets all go in the same hole. My biggest problem is there isn't anything to put the dot on after you shoot the center out of the target. The training aid is a bonus. You can see how steady you are by the movement of the dot and you can clearly see when you pull a shot. Having said that, there are problems with the Crimson Trace unit. I have an average size hand, but when I grip my 1911, the switch isn't sufficiently depressed, so I had to tape cardboard over the switch to keep it depressed. Looks like hell. I wouldn't put up with it if it wasn't so acurate. I don't have that problem when I shoot left handed. I think they put the switch on the wrong side. I am not qualified to comment on lasers for combat, since I've never used them in combat and would never use them as my only sight. They also are useless in daylight. But in low light or an indoor range, I simply can not attain this accuracy with conventional sights. To all you shooters who knock lasers- hey, someday you'll get old and blind too. Long live Viagra and lasers.

May 26, 2002, 12:20 PM	#45
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I wasn't really knocking lasers par se, just using them for intimidation. And a specific cop who drew down on me after I was in cuffs already. (which was really the gun and not the laser that p*ssed me off). His cohort should have been pissed also, he was right by me in the field of fire. They're just not for me personally, thats all. Anybody want to buy/trade for a Laser Devices model BA-2 laser? Fits Glock 20's and 21's...

May 26, 2002, 01:16 PM	#46
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	"if your weapon leaves its holster, you better be in fear of grave bodily harm" Edward, I have emphasized that I was talking about a specific senario; home defense for an inexperenced shooter using a carbine. If you hear a noise, get up from your bed to investigate you are in fear for your life. BUT, that doesn't nessessarily mean you open fire on the first thing you see. You want to make sure that the target is a threat. You can use a flashlight, but that is one more thing to remember to pick up. It also is dependant on batteries giving you something else to maintain and it takes one of your hands to use. It gives away your position and ruins your night vision. You can accomplish the same thing with a laser without the drawbacks. The laser is mounted on the weapon; if you have the weapon, you have the laser. Yes you have to check the batteries but I am assuming that you maintaint he weapon, how hard would it be to press the laser switch to ensure that the batteries are still good. When you change out the ammo in your mags, change out the batteries in the laser. As you investigate the noise, you stay behind cover with only the rifle and your eyes checking out the room. If you see someone you light them up in the face with the laser. If it is a friendly, they will let you know. If it is a threat, you may have temporarily blinded them moving the advantage to your side of the scale. If you need to shoot, the dot is on the target. And you may cause the guy to rethink his position and decide that when someone obviously has the drop on them and they have a firing solution it might be a good idea to give up saving you tremendous emotional distress and legal bills defending your actions. I personally fall into the group that would shoot only as an absolute last resort. I would like to have as many tools as possible to attempt to difuse the situation without turning my whole life up side down by having to use deadly force. You mention warning shots. Good point, this isn't a warning shot but allows you to possibly accomplish the same thing without firing a shot.

May 26, 2002, 02:03 PM	#47
Bullshooter Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2000 Location: Northeast OH Posts: 243	Nightstand This sits on the nightstand. I don't depend on the laser, but it makes target acquisition a lot quicker in a high stress situation.

May 26, 2002, 06:08 PM	#48
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Oh, sorry. I didnt go back and read the entire thread just the new posts and was really thinkin more to on the street when I made my comments. Unintentional experiment from a mirror has shown that you dont go blind instantly from a laser in the eye, I know. It must take 2 or 3 seconds of eye contact cause I didnt lose any vision at all... (looked like a red kalaidescope with red shiny sparkles thru it, it looked alive almost.)

May 26, 2002, 09:13 PM	#50
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	Wofman, if you read my prior post which is about two above your last post, you will find a number of senarios I mentioned that have either been on the "news", discussed on TFL, or things that are possible regarding why someone may be in your house that is not a threat. You make the following statement: "If some stranger is standing in my home in the dark, uninvited, then there isn't any good explanation that I can think of that would stop me from killing them. " #1 the operative word here is stranger. Before you go wild, it is nice to determine that it is in fact a stranger. Obviously this vaires from person to person. As I mentioned, some people have given keys to other family members that don't live with them. They may have needed to come to your house for something and didn't want to wake you (granted, that woud be stupid on their part but it doesn't mean you need to kill them). It might be a member of your immediate family but because you were just awakened, it is dark, and you have the adreniline pumping, you need to identify the target. Even if it is a stanger, I noted a few recent episodes where someone made a mistake in coming into the house. There have been a number of such cases discussed on this board. Then of course there are those of us who would rather not kill other people unless we have to. That is a moral dilema we all have to face. Of course then we get into the fact that we have to deal with the rest of society. The law, criminal attorneys, civil attorneys, etc. The point of this thread is to discuss the pros and cons of using lasers on firearms. If you would open fire on anyone in your home, that is your business but isn't really related to the topic at hand.