Reloading 101...Brass Theory

Big Caliber · October 12, 2008, 06:10 PM

I'll try to keep this short. I cooked up a 308 load using "premium" components (Lapua brass, Fed 210match primers, Berger bullets, & 43.5grains Varget powder) that resulted in a raggedy 3 shot hole smaller than a dime at 100yds. (That's a big deal for me.) The brass had been fired formed, necked sized and properly trimmed, and the bullet was seated to be just touching the lands for this load. Now, as I continue to re-use this brass (neck size & trimmed), using the same recipe with all components from their own same batches, will I see a drop off in accuacy the more times I re-use the brass? This also assumes the same shooting conditions at the range with the rifle bore in the same condition of cleanliness. (I know what you're thinking, but this is just theory.) All input is welcome.

Wildalaska · October 12, 2008, 06:21 PM

No. In fact you may see accuracy get better as long as prep is correct.

WildcuzitfitsthechamberbetterAlaska TM

jaguarxk120 · October 12, 2008, 06:56 PM

Things will get better as the brass is now fireformed to the rifle's chamber. You can improve on things by sorting brass as to weight into different groups. Also you will find differences in bullet weight. Sorting them into groups will make groups at the target small to. Tom F.

Wildalaska · October 12, 2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

You can improve on things by sorting brass as to weight into different groups. Also you will find differences in bullet weight.

In the compnents he uses, the tiny variations wont make a difference

WildqueerforfinnstuffAlaska TM

dardascastbullets · October 12, 2008, 07:34 PM

You do not have one premium component and that is the RWS primer. You will find that by using this primer that your groups will be smaller than what you are experiencing currently. The RWS primers will produce single digit standard deviations.

Wildalaska · October 12, 2008, 08:03 PM

So will 210Ms

WildhavedoneitAlaska TM

PS...I surely would try 'em if I could get 'em

amamnn · October 12, 2008, 08:17 PM

For those beginners who might read this thinking along the same lines:

Premium components do not guarantee super sub MOA groups. If the rifle is not capable of such groups, all the precision handloading you can do will not make it better than it is. If the shooter is not capable--etc..... Were wind flags used during your testing? What kind of supports for the rifle? Was the bench stable?---etc.....

Even with Bergers bullets and Lapua brass you still need to cull by weight and dimension to get the best from them. True, the culls are fewer, but they are still there.

I'm from the FL sizing school of BR handloading, I don't think neck sizing gives precise dimensions in the tight chambers found in most BR rifles. You never know to what degree the brass will rebound in any given case. Again, using premium brass like Lapua cuts down the variation, but does not eliminate it. Same with concentricity. This is not to disparage neck dies. Neck sizing can do a good job of tightening groups in off the shelf factory rifles.

Neck tension and start pressures must also be controlled. If you are able to use seating in or very near the lands, the base to ogive length will be critical.

In addition to what dardas mentioned about primers, I would add that primer pocket uniformity is mandatory, as it primer seating uniformity and to a lesser extent, flash hole uniforming. I've had very good luck with Federal match primers, but I still check them for height and weight.

Big Caliber · October 13, 2008, 01:17 AM

Fascinating...Thank you all. The rifle is a Savage 110fp. I know there is alot more that can be done to segregate brass and bullets. I just wondered if there was a difference in brass performance for 2-4 reloadings after initial fire forming, all else being constant. I've never heard of RWS primers. I've looked at MidwayUSA, Midsouth, and Graf & Sons but found no RWS primers. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Big Caliber · October 13, 2008, 01:36 AM

Let me answer my own question. I just went to the RWS site and read where those primers have not been imported for 2 years and there are currently no plans to resume importation soon. I'll stick with U.S. made primers, Fed 210M when available.

October 12, 2008, 06:10 PM	#1
Big Caliber Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2006 Location: S. CA Posts: 421	Reloading 101...Brass Theory I'll try to keep this short. I cooked up a 308 load using "premium" components (Lapua brass, Fed 210match primers, Berger bullets, & 43.5grains Varget powder) that resulted in a raggedy 3 shot hole smaller than a dime at 100yds. (That's a big deal for me.) The brass had been fired formed, necked sized and properly trimmed, and the bullet was seated to be just touching the lands for this load. Now, as I continue to re-use this brass (neck size & trimmed), using the same recipe with all components from their own same batches, will I see a drop off in accuacy the more times I re-use the brass? This also assumes the same shooting conditions at the range with the rifle bore in the same condition of cleanliness. (I know what you're thinking, but this is just theory.) All input is welcome.

October 12, 2008, 07:34 PM	#5
dardascastbullets Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2008 Location: Essexville, MI Posts: 164	You do not have one premium component and that is the RWS primer. You will find that by using this primer that your groups will be smaller than what you are experiencing currently. The RWS primers will produce single digit standard deviations. __________________ Matt Dardas

October 12, 2008, 08:17 PM	#7
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	For those beginners who might read this thinking along the same lines: Premium components do not guarantee super sub MOA groups. If the rifle is not capable of such groups, all the precision handloading you can do will not make it better than it is. If the shooter is not capable--etc..... Were wind flags used during your testing? What kind of supports for the rifle? Was the bench stable?---etc..... Even with Bergers bullets and Lapua brass you still need to cull by weight and dimension to get the best from them. True, the culls are fewer, but they are still there. I'm from the FL sizing school of BR handloading, I don't think neck sizing gives precise dimensions in the tight chambers found in most BR rifles. You never know to what degree the brass will rebound in any given case. Again, using premium brass like Lapua cuts down the variation, but does not eliminate it. Same with concentricity. This is not to disparage neck dies. Neck sizing can do a good job of tightening groups in off the shelf factory rifles. Neck tension and start pressures must also be controlled. If you are able to use seating in or very near the lands, the base to ogive length will be critical. In addition to what dardas mentioned about primers, I would add that primer pocket uniformity is mandatory, as it primer seating uniformity and to a lesser extent, flash hole uniforming. I've had very good luck with Federal match primers, but I still check them for height and weight. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

October 12, 2008, 06:21 PM	#2
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	No. In fact you may see accuracy get better as long as prep is correct. WildcuzitfitsthechamberbetterAlaska TM

October 12, 2008, 06:56 PM	#3
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	Things will get better as the brass is now fireformed to the rifle's chamber. You can improve on things by sorting brass as to weight into different groups. Also you will find differences in bullet weight. Sorting them into groups will make groups at the target small to. Tom F.

October 12, 2008, 08:03 PM	#6
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	So will 210Ms WildhavedoneitAlaska TM PS...I surely would try 'em if I could get 'em

October 13, 2008, 01:17 AM	#8
Big Caliber Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2006 Location: S. CA Posts: 421	Fascinating...Thank you all. The rifle is a Savage 110fp. I know there is alot more that can be done to segregate brass and bullets. I just wondered if there was a difference in brass performance for 2-4 reloadings after initial fire forming, all else being constant. I've never heard of RWS primers. I've looked at MidwayUSA, Midsouth, and Graf & Sons but found no RWS primers. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

October 13, 2008, 01:36 AM	#9
Big Caliber Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2006 Location: S. CA Posts: 421	Let me answer my own question. I just went to the RWS site and read where those primers have not been imported for 2 years and there are currently no plans to resume importation soon. I'll stick with U.S. made primers, Fed 210M when available.