Today is D-Day For Ohio

LonWilson · April 9, 2002, 05:07 PM

http://www.saf.org/pub/rkba/press-re...tayVictory.htm

Yep, that's right, tommorow is the day that the Ohio 1st DCA rules on the case of Klein vs. Leis, the case that declared OH's CCW ban unconstitutional.

There's no way to know how the 1st DCA will rule on the case. The stay lasts only till 9AM, while the ruling will be released on 11AM.

In any case, remember that the injunction only affects Hamilton County and city law enforcement. It is likely that they will call in reinforcements from other jurisdictions to arrest people for illegal carry, unless 1st DCA decides to expand the restraining order against the entire state, so be careful, OH TFL'ers.

Also, it looks like whoever loses will take this all the way to the Ohio Supreme Court.

Stainless · April 9, 2002, 05:09 PM

Well, it's a step in the right direction for those of us from the Heart of it All.

LonWilson · April 9, 2002, 05:23 PM

You know what, I just realized that I posted in the wrong forum again.

DOH!

Marko Kloos · April 9, 2002, 05:35 PM

Moved to Legal & Political.

LonWilson · April 9, 2002, 07:50 PM

Thank you.

TheBluesMan · April 9, 2002, 09:18 PM

Thank you for posting this reminder, Lon.

If you live in Northern Ohio, tune to WTAM, 1100 AM tomorrow morning. The topic of the day on the Bill Wills show is CCW. They'll be accepting calls and putting people on the air. Let's try to outnumber the antis, the phone number is 1-888-723-WTAM.

I'll be waiting and watching for the verdict tomorrow. I hope it is favorable to CCW. If it is (and even if the OSC issues another stay) it will put pressure on the Ohio legislature to pass CCW reform, fast...

LonWilson · April 10, 2002, 09:24 AM

The stay is over. Careful, Ohioans...

Decision at 11.

Moved2Texas · April 10, 2002, 11:16 AM

http://www.hamilton-co.org/appealsco...s/c-020012.doc

Ohio CCW Ban Unconstitutional! Quote from Ruling:

X. We Grant No Further Stay

This court granted a stay during this appeal. In addition, the General Assembly has been on notice of the problems with this statute for more than a year. We will not continue to allow the enforcement of an unconstitutional statute. We grant no further stay.

LonWilson · April 10, 2002, 11:21 AM

WOOHOO!!!!

Now it's onto the Ohio Supreme Court!!!!

Btw, folks, this injunction is for within Hamilton County ONLY!!!! Do not carry concealed in any other counties. Make absolutely sure you do not carry in any other counties.

And there is also the possibility that Hamilton county will still have you arrested for concealed carry using out of jurisdiction Ohio law enforcement. Just a warning.

TheBluesMan · April 10, 2002, 11:48 AM

http://www.onnnews.com/onnweb/fullst...p?record=16100

Quote:

State Court Allows Concealed Carry In Hamilton County
by Tom Chansky, Ohio News Network
---------------------------------

April 10, 2002

A state appeals court is allowing the concealed carry of weapons in Hamilton County.

Wednesday, a three-judge panel of the Ohio First District Court of Appeals declared a state ban on carrying concealed weapons unconstitutional, including a ban on carrying loaded weapons in vehicles. The ruling upholds a decision by Cincinnati Judge Robert Ruehlman, which applies only in Hamilton County.

Presiding Judge Mark Painter says the right to bear weapons is addressed directly in the Ohio Constitution. Painter writes in the court’s decision that the framers of the Ohio Constitution did not need to add a separate bill of rights.

“They put the citizens’ rights right up front, in Article I. We believe they meant what they said. Concerning weapons, they did not add the “well-regulated militia” language of the Second Amendment, which has tended to create doubt about its proper interpretation,” Painter writes.

Painter also said the U.S. Constitution did not need to be addressed. The Ohio Constitution says the state cannot maintain a “standing army” in times of peace.

“We question whether the Second Amendment’s “militia” language, often cited for the proposition that only a militia may carry weapons, is any more restrictive than the “standing armies” language of the Ohio Constitution. Surely, no one would contend that a militia cannot bear arms. So why mention the citizens’ rights? We are not England, where hunting was once the preserve of the landed rich; we are America, where the Pilgrims shot their Thanksgiving turkeys,” Painter writes. “We are not a country where power is maintained by people with guns over people without guns. If times have changed, and weapons are no longer necessary to procure food or safety (a dubious proposition), the proper course is to amend the Ohio Constitution. This court can deal only with the law as written.”

“It bans carrying concealed weapons, but seeks to establish certain limited affirmative defenses to the ban. [The law] is unconstitutional under the Ohio Constitution,” Presiding Judge Mark Painter writes. “There is no doubt that the Ohio Constitution grants citizens the right to possess, and to bear, arms. That is exactly what it says…The problem with [the state law] is that it does not simply regulate, but effectively prohibits, law-abiding citizens from bearing weapons. Further, the affirmative defenses the statute seeks to create are incomprehensible to the ordinary citizen.”

The current lawsuit dates back to 2000, when a group of Hamilton County residents backed by Ohioans for Concealed Carry and the Washington-based Second Amendment Foundation sued every law enforcement organization within Hamilton County. One of the plaintiffs, a private investigator, says he needs to carry a concealed weapon to do his job. Under state law, only law enforcement officials or officers of the state and federal government may carry concealed weapons.

The law’s opponents say it is flawed because it does not provide equal protection for ordinary citizens. Additionally, they claim, police throughout the state do not uniformly enforce the law. Prosecutors say there is no constitutional right to carry a concealed weapon.

Last month, the Ohio House passed legislation that would allow concealed carry. Under the bill, applicants would have to pass a background check and complete a four-hour training course. The legislation must still pass in the Senate and be signed by Governor Bob Taft. Taft says he won’t approve any concealed carry legislation unless Ohio law enforcement groups approve the bill.

The Fraternal Order of Police, Ohio Highway Patrol and Ohio Association of Chiefs of Police oppose the legislation.

The legislation has eased some restrictions opposed by gun advocates. Rather than fingerprinting applicants, the legislation would require county sheriffs to fingerprint only if applicants fail a criminal background check. Unless the sheriff has evidence of criminal activity, the applicant can ask law enforcement to stop the check. Advocates for concealed carry felt the original language was still restrictive.

The state can now appeal Wednesday ruling to the Ohio Supreme Court.

Until and unless the OSC issues a stay of this court's findings, CCW for lawful purposes within Hamilton County, Ohio is effectively LEGAL (aka Vermont Style).

Methinks that the state legislature will be passing HB 274 right quick...

TheBluesMan · April 10, 2002, 11:54 AM

A .pdf file of the Court's unanimous ruling can be found on the Ohioans for Concealed Carry website here: http://www.ohioccw.org/files/c-020012.pdf

LonWilson · April 10, 2002, 12:00 PM

Doubtful. Taft and Montgomery will continue this to the Ohio Supreme Court ASAP. I wouldn't doubt it if in the next few days the OH Supremes will stay the injunction and take up a fast track appeal.

Like I said, the anti's gunners like Taft and Montgomery have nothing to gain and everything to lose. They'll continue bucking the court, and appeal it to SCOOH, but, if the Ohio Supremes affirms the 1st DCA ruling in it's entirety, their order would make it statewide, not just within 1st DCA (all of Hamilton county only). The worst that would happen is that the ban isn't overturned. The best that can happen is that they affirm the 1st DCA's ruling.

A little warning: I believe Hamilton County will call in reinforcements from surrounding counties to law enforcement officials to come across the border and arrest people for concealed carry. LEO's in OH have complete statewide authority to arrest for felonies, which concealed carrying is. You'll have to go to Hamilton County's court system, but the entire intent is to scare people from carrying. Don't do it! They can't take you across the county line!

TheBluesMan · April 10, 2002, 03:10 PM

Lon,

Are you saying "Don't carry," or "Don't let them take you across the county line?"

If I lived in Hamilton County and was going about my daily, lawful business. I'd be packing for sure.

falconer · April 10, 2002, 03:20 PM

But Lon, how will these out of jurisdiction law enforcement types know who is carrying? It is concealed carry afterall!

LonWilson · April 10, 2002, 03:47 PM

You're right.

Remember, I AM NOT A LAWYER! If you get arrested and charged and spend a whole bunch of money, don't blame me.

The injunction brings up a whole host of stuff that I have no idea about. I'd know if it was Florida (any injunction against certain law enforcement agencies are also binding on any "visitor" LEO's there), but Ohio is a different state.

I was very strongly considering moving to Ohio, but I was going to wait until either the case got to the state Supreme Court was resolved or HB274 gets passed. Looks like I'll be getting my biggest wish!!

labgrade · April 10, 2002, 04:08 PM

I don't get it, Lon. (not that gun laws make any sense whatsoever anyway ... )

If this ruling says it's essentially legal for persons in a specific county, how can an LEO (even from another jurisdiction) legally arrest one (there) at all?

The machinations these antis go through .... boggles my tired ol' head.

Futo Inu · April 11, 2002, 11:47 AM

MatthewM · April 11, 2002, 01:27 PM

Would it be best to put the pending CCW legislation on hold until the Ohio Supreme Court rules?

Pending legislation was fought hard for and was considered to benefit the pro gun civil rights crowd. However, it is a compromise between our RKBA and the anti-rights crowd. If the Supreme Court upholds yesterday's ruling, then the pending legislation would actually take away rights!

It's time to start another bill forward to affirm CCW rights to all over 18, with no physical permit system.

TheBluesMan · April 11, 2002, 03:06 PM

MatthewM - Such a bill already exists, HB225 was introduced more than a year ago and received only one public hearing. It is still sitting in committee. I doubt that it will ever get another hearing.

The problem with sitting on HB274 is that the court allowed some "wiggle room" in their finding. They didn't say that Vermont Style is the only legal CCW, they just said that the current law was unconstitutional. So it could be changed, maybe to a discretionary permit system. If we don't continue to pursue HB274 (a "shall-issue" system), the antis will have a field day attaching their anti-freedom amendments to it; the legislature could pass it, the governor could sign it and we could end up being stuck with "may-issue" CCW.

We have an opportunity now to make HB274 even better than it is currently. There are some sections of the bill that could be altered in the Senate to make the bill more pro-freedom than it already is. These are the changes that Ohioans For Concealed Carry is pushing for.

Hal · April 12, 2002, 06:06 AM

HB274 is by far our best bet, IMNSHO. AND pushing HB274 through ASAP also. A "Vermont style" or a "no bill" bill would be too much like what Vermont has now,,,premption. What good is it if the State allows it but any and/or all cities can disallow it? As far as the Ohio Supreme Court goes,,,,forget it. Here's a glimps of what awaits in the SC:
-------------------------------
-------------------------------

State v. Barnes (2002), 94 Ohio St.3d 21. Case Nos. 00-1595 and 00-1682. Decided January 9, 2002. Majority opinion written by Justice Deborah Cook.

Writing for the 5-to-2 majority, Justice Deborah Cook said, "It is undisputed that a defendant can introduce character evidence" under the first part of Rule 405. But, she said, the second part of the rule is "more narrowly drawn. Thus, the relevant inquiry in this case is whether a victim's character or character trait is an essential element of self-defense."

In order to establish self-defense, a defendant must prove three things: that he wasn't at fault in creating the situation that led to the altercation; that he had a bona fide belief that he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that his only means of escape was in the use of force; and that he did not violate any duty to retreat or avoid the danger.

Notice how they still hang on to the *duty to retreat* doctrine which was struck down in Ohio something like 10-15 years ago(?) Call me Mr. doom and gloom if you want cause I see the OSC overturning the lower courts in this.

April 9, 2002, 05:07 PM	#1
LonWilson Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2002 Location: Aloha, Oregon Posts: 759	Tomorrow is D-Day For Ohio http://www.saf.org/pub/rkba/press-re...tayVictory.htm Yep, that's right, tommorow is the day that the Ohio 1st DCA rules on the case of Klein vs. Leis, the case that declared OH's CCW ban unconstitutional. There's no way to know how the 1st DCA will rule on the case. The stay lasts only till 9AM, while the ruling will be released on 11AM. In any case, remember that the injunction only affects Hamilton County and city law enforcement. It is likely that they will call in reinforcements from other jurisdictions to arrest people for illegal carry, unless 1st DCA decides to expand the restraining order against the entire state, so be careful, OH TFL'ers. Also, it looks like whoever loses will take this all the way to the Ohio Supreme Court.

April 9, 2002, 05:09 PM	#2
Stainless Member Join Date: May 17, 2001 Location: Ohio Posts: 70	Well, it's a step in the right direction for those of us from the Heart of it All. __________________ You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill I will choose a path thats clear I will choose freewill

April 9, 2002, 05:35 PM	#4
Marko Kloos Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: Enfield, NH Posts: 5,521	Moved to Legal & Political. __________________ "The right to buy weapons is the right to be free." --A.E. Van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher the munchkin wrangler.

April 9, 2002, 09:18 PM	#6
TheBluesMan Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 15, 1999 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,558	Thank you for posting this reminder, Lon. If you live in Northern Ohio, tune to WTAM, 1100 AM tomorrow morning. The topic of the day on the Bill Wills show is CCW. They'll be accepting calls and putting people on the air. Let's try to outnumber the antis, the phone number is 1-888-723-WTAM. I'll be waiting and watching for the verdict tomorrow. I hope it is favorable to CCW. If it is (and even if the OSC issues another stay) it will put pressure on the Ohio legislature to pass CCW reform, fast... __________________ -Dave Miller ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ! NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection. Tick-off Obama - Join the NRA Today - Save $10

April 10, 2002, 11:54 AM	#11
TheBluesMan Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 15, 1999 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,558	A .pdf file of the Court's unanimous ruling can be found on the Ohioans for Concealed Carry website here: http://www.ohioccw.org/files/c-020012.pdf __________________ -Dave Miller ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ! NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection. Tick-off Obama - Join the NRA Today - Save $10

April 9, 2002, 05:23 PM	#3
LonWilson Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2002 Location: Aloha, Oregon Posts: 759	You know what, I just realized that I posted in the wrong forum again. DOH!

April 9, 2002, 07:50 PM	#5
LonWilson Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2002 Location: Aloha, Oregon Posts: 759	Thank you.

April 10, 2002, 09:24 AM	#7
LonWilson Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2002 Location: Aloha, Oregon Posts: 759	The stay is over. Careful, Ohioans... Decision at 11.

April 10, 2002, 11:16 AM	#8
Moved2Texas Member Join Date: November 30, 2001 Posts: 36	http://www.hamilton-co.org/appealsco...s/c-020012.doc Ohio CCW Ban Unconstitutional! Quote from Ruling: X. We Grant No Further Stay This court granted a stay during this appeal. In addition, the General Assembly has been on notice of the problems with this statute for more than a year. We will not continue to allow the enforcement of an unconstitutional statute. We grant no further stay.

April 10, 2002, 11:21 AM	#9
LonWilson Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2002 Location: Aloha, Oregon Posts: 759	WOOHOO!!!! Now it's onto the Ohio Supreme Court!!!! Btw, folks, this injunction is for within Hamilton County ONLY!!!! Do not carry concealed in any other counties. Make absolutely sure you do not carry in any other counties. And there is also the possibility that Hamilton county will still have you arrested for concealed carry using out of jurisdiction Ohio law enforcement. Just a warning.

April 10, 2002, 12:00 PM	#12
LonWilson Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2002 Location: Aloha, Oregon Posts: 759	Doubtful. Taft and Montgomery will continue this to the Ohio Supreme Court ASAP. I wouldn't doubt it if in the next few days the OH Supremes will stay the injunction and take up a fast track appeal. Like I said, the anti's gunners like Taft and Montgomery have nothing to gain and everything to lose. They'll continue bucking the court, and appeal it to SCOOH, but, if the Ohio Supremes affirms the 1st DCA ruling in it's entirety, their order would make it statewide, not just within 1st DCA (all of Hamilton county only). The worst that would happen is that the ban isn't overturned. The best that can happen is that they affirm the 1st DCA's ruling. A little warning: I believe Hamilton County will call in reinforcements from surrounding counties to law enforcement officials to come across the border and arrest people for concealed carry. LEO's in OH have complete statewide authority to arrest for felonies, which concealed carrying is. You'll have to go to Hamilton County's court system, but the entire intent is to scare people from carrying. Don't do it! They can't take you across the county line!

April 10, 2002, 03:10 PM	#13
TheBluesMan Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 15, 1999 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,558	Lon, Are you saying "Don't carry," or "Don't let them take you across the county line?" If I lived in Hamilton County and was going about my daily, lawful business. I'd be packing for sure. __________________ -Dave Miller ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ! NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection. Tick-off Obama - Join the NRA Today - Save $10

April 10, 2002, 03:20 PM	#14
falconer Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: somewhere Posts: 546	But Lon, how will these out of jurisdiction law enforcement types know who is carrying? It is concealed carry afterall!

April 10, 2002, 03:47 PM	#15
LonWilson Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2002 Location: Aloha, Oregon Posts: 759	You're right. Remember, I AM NOT A LAWYER! If you get arrested and charged and spend a whole bunch of money, don't blame me. The injunction brings up a whole host of stuff that I have no idea about. I'd know if it was Florida (any injunction against certain law enforcement agencies are also binding on any "visitor" LEO's there), but Ohio is a different state. I was very strongly considering moving to Ohio, but I was going to wait until either the case got to the state Supreme Court was resolved or HB274 gets passed. Looks like I'll be getting my biggest wish!!

April 10, 2002, 04:08 PM	#16
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	I don't get it, Lon. (not that gun laws make any sense whatsoever anyway ... ) If this ruling says it's essentially legal for persons in a specific county, how can an LEO (even from another jurisdiction) legally arrest one (there) at all? The machinations these antis go through .... boggles my tired ol' head.

April 11, 2002, 11:47 AM	#17
Futo Inu Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 1999 Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Posts: 3,624	__________________ "You are NOT Joseph's father, Hank. You are not supposed to take over until Dale is gunned down by federal agents - that is the agreement." --Peggy

April 11, 2002, 01:27 PM	#18
MatthewM Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Posts: 1,003	Would it be best to put the pending CCW legislation on hold until the Ohio Supreme Court rules? Pending legislation was fought hard for and was considered to benefit the pro gun civil rights crowd. However, it is a compromise between our RKBA and the anti-rights crowd. If the Supreme Court upholds yesterday's ruling, then the pending legislation would actually take away rights! It's time to start another bill forward to affirm CCW rights to all over 18, with no physical permit system.

April 11, 2002, 03:06 PM	#19
TheBluesMan Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 15, 1999 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,558	MatthewM - Such a bill already exists, HB225 was introduced more than a year ago and received only one public hearing. It is still sitting in committee. I doubt that it will ever get another hearing. The problem with sitting on HB274 is that the court allowed some "wiggle room" in their finding. They didn't say that Vermont Style is the only legal CCW, they just said that the current law was unconstitutional. So it could be changed, maybe to a discretionary permit system. If we don't continue to pursue HB274 (a "shall-issue" system), the antis will have a field day attaching their anti-freedom amendments to it; the legislature could pass it, the governor could sign it and we could end up being stuck with "may-issue" CCW. We have an opportunity now to make HB274 even better than it is currently. There are some sections of the bill that could be altered in the Senate to make the bill more pro-freedom than it already is. These are the changes that Ohioans For Concealed Carry is pushing for. __________________ -Dave Miller ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ! NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection. Tick-off Obama - Join the NRA Today - Save $10

April 12, 2002, 06:06 AM	#20
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	HB274 is by far our best bet, IMNSHO. AND pushing HB274 through ASAP also. A "Vermont style" or a "no bill" bill would be too much like what Vermont has now,,,premption. What good is it if the State allows it but any and/or all cities can disallow it? As far as the Ohio Supreme Court goes,,,,forget it. Here's a glimps of what awaits in the SC: ------------------------------- ------------------------------- State v. Barnes (2002), 94 Ohio St.3d 21. Case Nos. 00-1595 and 00-1682. Decided January 9, 2002. Majority opinion written by Justice Deborah Cook. Writing for the 5-to-2 majority, Justice Deborah Cook said, "It is undisputed that a defendant can introduce character evidence" under the first part of Rule 405. But, she said, the second part of the rule is "more narrowly drawn. Thus, the relevant inquiry in this case is whether a victim's character or character trait is an essential element of self-defense." In order to establish self-defense, a defendant must prove three things: that he wasn't at fault in creating the situation that led to the altercation; that he had a bona fide belief that he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that his only means of escape was in the use of force; and that he did not violate any duty to retreat or avoid the danger. Notice how they still hang on to the duty to retreat doctrine which was struck down in Ohio something like 10-15 years ago(?) Call me Mr. doom and gloom if you want cause I see the OSC overturning the lower courts in this.