Goodbye TFL- for now

[DaleA]

Chaim:

I hope you get this "agent's" name and report him up his chain of command. Certainly not all LEOs, Feds etc. go around with this type of attitude. Maybe a letter to your Congressman would be in order. (I heartily recommend this.)

Does anybody know, when this is all over, can Chaim do anything to check on what kind of "file" this agent has created on him? Freedom of Information Act etc?

Like most of the people here have said, you should get somebody on your side (probably a lawyer) that really knows what is going on.

This IS the USA...with liberty and justice for all. And I am NOT being sarcastic here. This is what I believe in and what I support.

[MikeK]

Apparantly chaim is not alone. A reliable source informed me that this is happening all over the DC metro area. He also provided me with the names of lawyers in both MD and VA that are qualified to deal with this sort of thing.

His advice - Be polite, but don't answer any questions without a lawyer. This fellow is already overburdened with calls and tracking the incidents. Should anyone that lives in MD or VA have a similar experience to chaim's, feel free to e-mail or private message me for the name and number of a lawyer in that state.

The reason he did not want them posted on the forum is because they are small offices and he does not want them deluged with "What if this happened to me... questions". However, if you have been contacted by a government agency and feel you want a lawyer, which is his recommendation, please contact me.

Whether you decide to hire counsel or not, his organization is tracking these incidents and it would be helpful to hear about them.

After this post I guess I'll get my call soon.

Hope they catch the SOB without trampling all of our rights.

[NIGHTWATCH]

If this is not tyranny than I dont know what is.
GET A LAWYER AND HAVE HIM CALL THIS PIECE OF SCUM AND WARN HIM TO BACK OFF!
Also, call Fox news TO SEE IF MAYBE THEY WILL LISTEN TO WHAT IS HAPPENING TO YOU.

Whatever you do, dont take this lying down. They have nothing on you and whoever this guy is he needs to be sued!.

[Spackler]

If they had somebody they felt strongly about, they would pay them a visit, not call them on the phone. I agree with the others who have said that they are just fishing.

My response would be to be polite, but I wouldn't answer questions without legal representation. They don't have time to haul you in as an inconvenience. They're too busy. If you refuse to answer questions without a lawyer, and they haul you in, you can bet that you were going to be hauled in anyway, so you'd have needed a lawyer no matter what. If you refuse to answer without a lawyer and they go away, then they were going to go away anyway.

I wouldn't change my lifestyle, not one bit.

I find this whole turn of events to be disgusting.

[82ndAbn]

Hi. I appreciate being allowed to post on your site. I found some interesting viewpoints on another site about this topic.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=148719

[bad_dad_brad]

First off get caller ID. I don't answer the phone except to family and friends. If I don't know the number or the name and they don't leave a message on my answering machine then screw them.

You are being intimidated. You must be young. Somebody on this thread quoted it best:

Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem
Remember to keep a clear head in difficult times

Forget the lawyer. I know it is the typical advice, but until you are charged (and keep your mouth SHUT for God's sake) don't hire a lawyer. All they want is your money. And besides, they all belong to the same club.

Don't take any [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] off of LEO's. The good ones wont give you [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]. The bad ones are young or crooked. I remember an incident years ago. My son and I were in my backyard working on his car. A cop pulled up in our driveway (like it was his) and asked - do you guys own a pellet gun? I looked straight at the guy and said "so what if I do?" I am young looking and he didn't realize I was an older adult and when he saw that I was probably the Father, he backed off and apologized and asked for my cooperation. Apparently in the viaduct behind my house some body had been shooting out windshields. I told him I had not seen or heard anything unusual (truth - if I had I would have called the cops myself) and he left.

Please understand I am a law abiding citizen. I respect law enforcement. But for some of the LEO types, the first thing they use is intimidation as it is the easy route. Do report those officers who use those methods and don't be fooled by those bad cop ways.

[Sodbuster]

Hi 82ndAbn, welcome to TFL

Thanks for the link. I read through it. One of the more memorable posts was by Panzer Boy. He doubted the veracity of chaim's story, which is fine, I have no problem with him on that account. I do wonder if he suffered a severe head injury when I read this: the FBI agents he knows would say, real calmly, can we talk, we have a question and we would like to sort through it. Just like what the feds did with David Koresh and Randy Weaver? The G-men just wanted to talk real politely and sort things out. Is that what Panzer Boy is saying happened at Waco and Ruby Ridge? The feds didn't intimidate or coerce? Panzer Boy must be an ATF agent. Or FBI.

[isaidme]

Just whats been said before,get a lawyer and call the NRA.Do something about this!!!

[82ndAbn]

Panzer Boys comments from the thread in question:

I have to ask.

What does the poster gain by posting something untrue?

We already don't trust the FBI...but this scenario isn't happening to US, it's happening to HIM. I'd bet that the "Get A Lawyer" advice is what most of US would recommend under the circumstances.

Most of us here already know the score, not much more we would do than what we've already done to remain in compliance with the law and Cover our collective and individual asses from the legal harrassment we endure from the anti-gun bedwetters we already have to deal with in our society.

So I have to ask, what does this guy have to gain by trying to make us even MORE mad at the FBI?

Unless it's part of the tactic of driving a wedge between us, the most capable of the armed citizenry, and law enforcement, who traditionally have been our closest allies (yes, we have procedural differences, but we ALL have guns...that is our common link)

So, let us examine for a moment the validity of his statements: He has not posted any agent's names, nor phone numbers. This is bad. This hurts his credibility because no one can verify his story firsthand. Verdict: BS

An FBI agent threatening to send a team over to someone's house is a SERIOUS no-no. I've dealt with FBI agents before...they're more sneaky than that; They're not good at direct confrontation and will NEVER EVER tip off a suspect that a team is coming. More likely, instead of trying to intimidate or coerce, the FBI would be more inclined to say "Hey, we'd like you to pop in at your convenience and clear a few things up about your whereabouts because of this sniper thing. Strictly routine, of course." To threaten over the phone is unprofessional, unproductive, and liability-ridden. At Best: An overzealous functionary playing games. (IF true) at Worst: BS

The fact that the "agent" wanted this individual to put his DAD on the phone violates all KINDS of procedures I'm aware of.
Verdict: BS

So I have to ask, is this someone IMPERSONATING the FBI, tormenting this pour soul, or is he misrepresenting the whole thing?

The Acid Test:

Have him publish, on whatever board, the name of the agent who talked to him, and his contact phone number.

Then someone, any one of us, could call this "agent" and ask HIM some questions. After reading the "What do you do" section of AR15.com, I am CERTAIN that a few of us could eat him for lunch, verbally, no matter WHO he is, or thinks he is.

This whole "sniper" thing is a big publicity stunt, using real people as political pawns in order to pass a murderous agenda. This post could be just another finger of it.

Just my opinion.

Panz

I figured it would be best for others to form their own opinions about this gentleman's comments.

[MitchSchaft]

[dengel]

Im not a frequent poster, however I do lurk quite often here, but post often on Glocktalk (which is how I got to tonights thread). In reference to DaleA's question - the FOIA Freedom of Information Act is designed to allow people to see the contents of what "some" govt agencies have in regards to information about people. Active investigations, classified materials, and some govt agencies are completely off limits. Keep in mind that when they fill your FOIA request thay may leave out any information which is not specifically requested, classified information, or any such documentation which they feel can expose them to certain liability (either via their assets, or Im sure, financially.

With respect to Chaim's current issue -

- Get a tape recorder, and advise ALL callers at the onset of the call that they are subject to being recorded, and if they wish not to be, to please hang up now. This preserves your rights under Federal and State wiretapping and recording laws. (provided its allowed by law).

- If you decide to send any letters to any agency, do so by registered mail, return receipt requested. This way you have a signature and a hard copy proof that it was received and signed for. My personal suggestion is have an attorney review any and all corrospondence prior to its being sent

- Do not supply them with any information, since its clear its a "fishing expidition" you are under NO obligation to speak with any authority. If you are to be questioned, you first MUST be Mirandized and read your rights, at which time your ONLY words shall be, "I'd like to help in any way I can, however, I am invoking my right to counsel at this time, and thus cannot answer any questions until they arrive and I have a chance to confer with them"

- Arrest is not necessarily ONLY when they place cuffs on you, its any time you feel as though you are constructively being detained and not allowed the freedom to leave. Any time you feel as though you are not allowed to leave you are allowed to invoke your right to counsel under Miranda.

- Make sure that any time you have contact with any law enforcement official that it is both documented and you have a running list on all names, depts, badge or shield numbers, phone numbers and addresses. If ever in doubt as to the authenticity of a LEO, ask him or her for their precinct or district information and speak with watch commander or desk sgt, or in the event its Federal LEO, call their office and ask to speak with Special Agent in Charge - SAC.

- Under no circumstances should you agree to any searches of your person, your home, your possessions, or your belongings. If you do consent you basically toss your 4th amendment rights to unreasonable search and seizures. At no time should you ever give body fluids, fibres, hair, tissue, or other DNA samples. And whatever you do, DO NOT accept any cigarettes, or drinks whiile in custody since both fingerprints, and DNA samples can be obtained from such things.

Good Luck, and if you have any urges to go to the range, or post, feel free to do so, since you have not done anything illegal or against the law. Hope this all helps.

[DadOfThree]

A reliable source informed me that this is happening all over the DC metro area.

Can you say "Class Action Suit"?

[Hal]

LOL!

Call the ACLU

Seriously. The ACLU is always chest thumping about violations of rights. What have you got to lose? You could really make them (ACLU) squirm.

[Phil Ca]

I have spent 27 + years in federal work and 22+ years as a reserve officer for a small town. During my federal years I have worked or trained with many federal LEOs,including ATF,FBI,USSS,IRS,US Customs,USPO,Border Patrol,DOS,FPS,and others I can't remember at the moment. In every organization there are both good and bad representatives. In my experience the worst were with ATF and the FBI. Two of the best people I ever met were two agents with IRS. I never thought I would have anything good to say about the IRS but these guys were really professional people. Some of the USSS people I dealt with after they left the USSS, and they were extremely unprofessional and bad mannered. They had let their position with the agency go to their heads. More than likely they were the same way when they were on duty as well.

If you need a tape recorder with a four hour capacity check out the one from the C.Crane Co. at www.ccrane.com in Fortuna,Ca.

A plain Radio Shack unit will do the job and cost half or less than half as much. When you talk on the phone just announce you are recording and if the other party chooses not to talk thats their choice. Above all keep calm and don't let then get you flustered. Some of the agents do that to see if a person will spill information to them that they can be used against them.

It is a sad state of affairs when honest people have to feel unsecure in their homes or on their own phones.

I get a lot of hang-up calls and I just say to whomever it is that does not talk,"Its your dime!" and place the receiver back on the phone.

Keep a reliable lawyer's phone number with you and get to know him briefly so that he will recognize you by sight if you need to call on his services. It may cost an hour or portion thereof but might be worth it down the road.

And remember this, "Non illigitimi non carborundum"

[dZ]

chaim,
you were being buffaloed by someone on a fishing expedition
and you provided way more data than they ever hoped to get.

A phone call is not a search warrant

How do you know they had a list of your "arsenal"?
Did they provide a model name & serial number?
Or did he make it sound like they knew the unknowable?

i think someone dropped a dime on you,
and an Agent social engineered you.

dZ

[chaim]

Gee 82ndAbn thanks for that link. I've had the worst week of my life (not only this horrible call) and now I get salt poured into the wound. My best friend's mother learned that I owned guns and "reported" me to my mother (despite the fact that I'm 32) and since I have to live at home at the moment my parents are trying to force me to go to a shrink over it. I'm not working (to study in the morning I can't sub, and finding a night job that pays enough isn't fun). I may have to sell some guns to pay some bills, and even to have enough $ for my grad school application fee (related to the not working part above). Then I get harrassed by the FBI. My honesty and integrity are very important to me (they always have been, and now especially so since I am now an Orthodox Jew) and now I get directed to a thread on a board I've never been that is referring this thread and most posters think I'm lying about not just the incident but about everything I say that I am. Thanks again.

I wonder how many people decided to read through and saw where I posted pretty much the entire incident (as well as when I calmed down and stated that I decided that my lawyer friend's advice not to post was best ignored).

Some of their points, well I don't know where to start (got to love people who know nothing about you and decide to not only doubt what you are saying but also decide to attack every peice of your credibility):

-I'm not 15, I'm 32- ask the TFLers who have met me if you don't believe me (stretcharmstrong knows me best since I've known him for 26years, I sold a gun to one [he can identify himself and vouch for me if he'd like], I went shooting before with a couple TFLers [again, I'll leave it up to them if they want to get in the middle of this]), and college educated (bachelor's degree in psychology). Additionally, I'd hope that you can tell I'm not a kid from my writing style (if not then I sure wasted a heck of a lot of money on my college education).

-Yes I live at home, what of it? I moved in temporarily some time ago, and got stuck- can happen to the best of us. First, I was unemployed for about 6 months, then I started working as a substitute teacher (when I started buying guns again), and starting about a week ago I became a Yeshiva student (an Orthodox Jewish religious school- there are students there from 14 to about 50 or so- and no I'm not trying to become a rabbi, though I may, like most Orthodox Jews I'm studying Torah for its own sake). I'll be moving back out again when I get to grad school (hopefully in Jan).

-No, I didn't need my parent's permission to buy guns. My parent's didn't LET me buy any of my guns, I didn't need them too. I'm 32, they are strongly anti so if I asked they'd say no, and the FBI call was only the second time they heard that I owned guns.

-My calling them, only one number in the book, etc. Well, check the Baltimore phone book (the blue section where they have numbers for gov't offices) and you'll see only one PUBLIC number for the FBI office here. No, the number I was called from wasn't it (I got that number by using *69) but the guy I talked to at the Balt office confirmed that it was their Mont. County Task Force number (he also agreed that the first call when I was initially called was unprofessional and not the way they usually operate).

-Not intially having the guy's name. I thought it wasn't actually FBI but a scam artist so I figured the name was a fake so I didn't bother writing it down. Oh, and when I called back I only had the number because of *69 and the above mentioned confirmation from the local office- IT WAS NOT A PUBLIC NUMBER. It was the phone the "investigator" called me on (thus presumably a line they use and answer).

-Not posting the number and agent's name publically so people on the board can verify my info for themselves. Are they really that stupid. If they get their lines innundated with calls about this you don't think it will come back to bite me in the butt!!!???


I'm sure I left out a lot but I really don't want to read any more there. Every post there is attacking me (so it seems). I would strongly appreciate it if those of you here who trust me would be kind enough to post in my defense over there. I will not be posting anything there as they already made up their minds about me and I don't need the hastle. Also, while I have 1000 posts here so some of you may know my posts well enough to trust my integrity I'll just be a guy with one post there that they already made up their minds about before I even get there.

If you get the idea that I am offended, yes I'm strongly offended. In addition to always trying to safeguard my reputation (by trying not to do anything to damage it) and valuing my integrity (and thus not appreciating when people cast aspersions on it) there is a concept in my religion called lashon hara. This means that it is forbiden to attack another person's character (well, it means far more than that, but this is the really short version). Since I try to be civil, and even when I think it I never stoop to personal attacks, I do expect the same treatment from others.

Edited for a grammatical error that was really getting on my nerves.

[Panzerboy]

Good Lord I'm famous. I've been crossposted!

First of all, allow me to soothe your fears that I am some kind of a "plant" and perhaps work for a federal agency.

I am old and fat. I do not, nor have I ever, worked for any federal agency, or any police or law enforcement agency. I tried to get into the US Border Patrol about 10 years ago and they said I was too fat.

That being said, allow me to tell you what I HAVE been. ( Try not to be TOO impressed here, folks...)(/sarcasm off)

Security officer for going on 13 years, the last 10 having been licensed through the Florida Department of State (813) 272-2552. I knew Gene Blitch before he retired, and Garry Floyd knows me by my first name.

Licensed Bail Bondsman (Temporary) State of Florida. Licensure through the Florida Department of Insurance. I don't remember their phone number. I knew and met Louis Rivera.

Licensed Bail Bondsman State of North Carolina. Licensure through the North Carolina Department of Insurance. I don't remember THEIR phone number, either. I met Twyla Covington.

All of this information is verifiable with just a few phone calls.

I am no longer in any of those professions. I don't do anything anymore except amuse myself.

That being said, let's get down to brass tacks.

I can only comment on what is posted. I do not know Chaim personally, nor do I claim to. I pointed out some obvious holes in the story he published here.

And every word I said, I stand behind. Apparently, I have had good luck in dealing with the federal agencies. From US Customs at TIA, to the US Marshalls on several occasions, and some random calls to the ATF Compliance Branch asking about forms and whatnot.

Yes, I agree that some Federal Agents can be coercive. In person, they can be downright intimidating and nasty, but it makes no sense to do that sort of thing over the phone. IF what Chaim says is true, and I leave the possibility open that it may be, then someone is desperate and fishing.

But from the post, without specifics, the story is rather weak. Followed up by "Reliable Sources?"

You can give names for verification without revealing your identity. I have just done so above. It would not be difficult to post a phone number here for someone to call to ask for "agent soandso".

The other advantage to doing this is that it makes "agent soandso" and the entire agency aware that WE are watching its tactics and are most certainly taking notes for future reference.

I probably won't post here much; I merely created this account so that you may address and confront me directly here. I post more often on AR15.com; If you wish to contact me later regarding something else, there is where I shall be.

Chaim:

Buddy, I don't know you. I only judge what you posted. If this is really happening to you, you really do have my sympathy because it sucks to be under the microscope. (Been there, done that several times, and I was one of the card-carrying "good guys").

As for taking your lawyer friend's advice about posting here, I have no opinion. I am not a lawyer.

As for the inundation of calls to the local FBI office "biting you in the butt?" Well, yes, but how? What can they do that would not be patently illegal and strengthen your lawsuit against them for violation of your civil rights? And as I posted above, it will put THEM on notice that WE are watching, and some of us have played this game before from both sides of the fence.

Relax. I am not one who has called you an "attention whore". And I made no personal attack against you. I critiqued your post, and your post only. If anything else was inferred, it is wrong. Good luck to you.

Keep your powder dry.

In Liberty,

Panz

{Edited to add: My Handle comes from the fact that for 2 years in my stint as a Security Officer, I worked for a couple of armored car companies, carrying money in those big red "rob me" trucks. I first logged on to AR15.Com back then...and the name stuck, even though I don't actually jump armored anymore. So it's not any kind of german-nazi sort of thing...just in case someone decides to go there.}

[chaim]

I hope you get this "agent's" name and report him up his chain of command. Certainly not all LEOs, Feds etc. go around with this type of attitude.

Dale and others with posts with a similar theme,

I do understand this (I hope no one got the wrong idea there). I have a friend who is a cop and I've had several acquaintances over the years who are as well. A cousin is not only FBI (in Philidelphia) but he was (not sure if he still is, I haven't talked to him in a few years , I really should) on their SWAT team. Also, even in this encounter the guy I called at the local office to report a fraud and who told me that the number was actually one of their numbers was very pleasant and professional.

As far as reporting the guy. I've been advised that this may not be a good idea (my gut says so as well). As of now, I'll probably not hear another thing from them (it was just a fishing expedition), however if I mess with him (the agent) who knows what kind of harrassment may come my way. Maybe in a few weeks when I'm sure that I'll be getting no more calls I can be more comfortable with reporting him.

[Bogie]

Don't let the bastards get you down.

And dude, what do you MEAN that you don't own a .223?

That's next on your list. I'd suggest a Savage 12BVSS, and stick a Weaver 4-16x scope on top.

[King]

Just a thought but although the feds normally come see you face to face for investigative purposes, they may have decided to work through the thousands of leads over the phone in the interest of saving time factored against the high sense or urgency to locate the sniper.

Of course, that does not excuse their shabby behavior and failure to properly identify themselves.

I guess they have the power and we don't....thus, they feel that can be an [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] if they feel like it.

Chaim, I think it will blow over and you'll be ok....just don't expect an apology for those guys.

[Sodbuster]

Welcome to you, Panzerboy. Nice of you to take the time to post here. I wasn't serious about you being a plant; I should have used some smilies, but the topic is serious. I get excited sometimes. Hope you stick around. Keep up the good fight, chaim.

[chaim]

Panzerboy,

Ok, I'm not necessarily going to post all my responses in the same order as your points and some seem off topic enough to ignore but I'll try to address the important ones in an order that makes sense.

Buddy, I don't know you. I only judge what you posted

My point exactly. You (and more importantly the others on that board as your post was comparatively tame) don't know me. As such you (as a group, again you were comparatively tame) have no right to attack my credibility or worse, resort to personal attacks (15yrs old, Dominos pizza, doubts as to whether I even own guns, questioning my motives, etc). You can doubt what I say, but for G-d's sake, be civil.

Also, note that I only posted here on TFL and on another board that I founded, to people who know me (online anyway) as I am a frequent contributer to those sites. I thought at the time (before I calmed down a bit) that I'd listen to my lawyer friend and not post here and figured someplace I founded (TaurusTalk) and someplace I posted about 1000 messages in a year (here) deserved some kind of explaination. I was not posting all over the internet to people who don't know me and thus need to have my credibility proven (and who is AR15Forum that I have to prove anything to anyway). I've been here long enough that I hope my reputation is strong enough not to have to bother. If you want to know my credibility look over my past 1000 (now +) posts and see for yourself how honest I am.

As for taking your lawyer friend's advice about posting here, I have no opinion. I am not a lawyer.

I'm not either but I figure I'll use a little common sense. I decided to continue posting after all, because:
1) We all pretty much agree that this was probably just a fishing expedition (and I also don't object so much to the fact THAT I was called, at first I simply tried to tell him everything he asked about was none of his business, it was the way the agent handled it and the threats that I object to) so I doubt if they'll look any further into me.
2) Even if they do look more into things, what will they see in the next few dozen, or even hundred posts, that I haven't said in the last 1000? This is a (mostly) free country, nothing illegal in posting here and I've never said anything I don't stand behind or that could be dangerous.

As for the inundation of calls to the local FBI office "biting you in the butt?" Well, yes, but how?

Well, first, if they get too many calls tying up their phones they may try to say that I somehow sabatoged their efforts (yes, after the phone call I am now a little paranoid). I never would have thought that the fact that I bought a few guns in the past year (only one, a .22lr, was a rifle since summer 2001) would have brought me to any law enforcement agency's attention (and BTW- I own 0, yes ZERO, .223s). Also, as you can see from the fact that this has ended up all over the internet, once you put information out you lose control over it. I have no idea what tone the callers would use or what kinds of things they'd say (threats?, anti-gov't messages?, etc) and certainly wouldn't want that stuff coming back to me.

That being said, allow me to tell you what I HAVE been...All of this information is verifiable with just a few phone calls.

Mostly irrelevant. As far as posting contact info from the FBI so you can verify, see above.

As far as posting personal info to prove who/what I am, well no way. You may think it is paranoid but I worked in banking for 5 years while I was in school and I've seen the end result of identity theft more times than I'd like to remember (ruined credit, thousands of dollars missing from bank accounts, and worse). I safeguard the specifics of my personal info online like it is my wallet (because it can be used to get into it). Just posting jobs you once had can help someone piece together a bogus loan application that will still look good. With enough info (and in skilled hands it doesn't take much) a scam artist can dig up more on you, enough to open credit accounts, live under your name and ssn, even cause you to have arrest warrants in your name. If I were you I wouldn't give such a complete list (especially the specific company names), and I'd certainly drop the phone numbers. Additionally, I post a lot of details about my gun ownership/purchases here and I wouldn't want enough personal details here for a local potential thief to be able to find who I am (and thus find where I live) so that he/she could target my guns.

Relax. I am not one who has called you an "attention whore". And I made no personal attack against you. I critiqued your post, and your post only. If anything else was inferred, it is wrong. Good luck to you.

Well, first you should go back and notice I don't single you out (or anyone else). Second, I was trying to address several posts in that forum together in my one post (because I really don't want to be bothered with responding to each one individually). Third, I don't take attacks on my credibility or honesty lightly, my reputation is too important for that. You "critique" included referring to what I said as "BS" on several occasions (you couldn't find a better way to say that you weren't so sure about my story), and early on you question my motives as well. Others there were worse but that is crossing the line as well.

Again, this post was for people who already know me. I don't owe you or the others on your board anything. And, yes I think I am perfectly justified to be insulted.

Edited to add: My Handle comes from the fact that for 2 years in my stint as a Security Officer...So it's not any kind of german-nazi sort of thing...just in case someone decides to go there

I don't think you needed to worry. My assumtion was that you were formerly in the Army in the Armored Corps or that you, like me, are a big history buff (esp. WWII history).

Also, I hope you stick around as well. This is a good board with a lot of knowlegable people (I've learned a lot here). Stick around, get to know my posts, I'm sure we'll get over this.

[Rich Lucibella]

Chaim-
Check your email.

Neal Knox emailed me this morning and is looking to get in touch with you. If your story checks out, he'll help....and he's just the guy to do it, too.

He's given his permission for me to let y'all know that he's incensed and willing to get involved.
Rich Lucibella

[twoblink]

I think the irony is, the second amendment was designed to protect you from such things. If we were without guns, they would break in and threaten you in your own home!

Record everything, and answer any phone calls with "I am recording this conversation, I will not be able to reply to any questions as I do not know what might be used against me in a court of law." Get a lawyer!

[Chuck Dye]

I think the most amazing thing about this entire thread is the underlying concept that someone on the phone (or a poster on a forum) can legitimately establish their bona fides. Answer questions from a cold caller? Take orders? Good grief! Given the ease with which ID can be falsified, I am inclined to check call the agency even when I am presented photo ID.