Goodbye TFL- for now

[Kirk Keller]

I'm with Huck. We've become far to conditioned toward blind compliance with purported authority figures for my taste. I believe a lot of it has to do with wanting to do what's right, but it also has to do with the guilt of not knowing whether or not you've done something wrong (given the multitudes of inane gun laws).

Chaim, fight the good fight and Kudos to Rich for bringing in Neal. Bravo!

[chaim]

Answer questions from a cold caller? Take orders? Good grief! Given the ease with which ID can be falsified, I am inclined to check call the agency even when I am presented photo ID.

Huck,

Actually, a few people seem confused on this so my initial post of the story must not have been as clear as I meant it to be. When he first called I assumed it was some kind of scam artist trying to troll around to see who has anything (guns) worth stealing and then to try to find their daily habbits (wanting to know my whereabouts for the past week). I told him I wasn't going to tell him anything and why (I suspected he was a scam artist).

Then I called the local FBI office in Baltimore (after calling *69 to get the phone number I was called from) to let them know that there was a scam where someone was identifing himself as FBI. The FBI office (I looked up the number in the phone book) told me that the number that called me was one of them. Then I called back (to apologize for my tone, not that I really FELT any different about giving the FBI any info- I just didn't think it was a good idea to give the FBI a hard time and leave it at that) and the fun started. I gave too much info because I was pretty tired when the strong arm tactics started and I did get a bit shaken up so I ended up telling him what he wanted (though I did have a witness that I was someplace else during at least one shooting so this should hopefully be the end of it).

[chaim]

Chaim-
Check your email.

Neal Knox emailed me this morning and is looking to get in touch with you. If your story checks out, he'll help....and he's just the guy to do it, too.

He's given his permission for me to let y'all know that he's incensed and willing to get involved.
Rich Lucibella

I just got off the phone with him a few moments ago. I'm not sure how far he wants to go with it, and how far I'll go with him on it. As I'm sure everyone can tell from my posts, I'm mad but I really would like to just get back to normal so I don't want to attract too much attention from the FBI (I really don't need the potential harassment). I was certainly "just" (shouldn't have happened) a fishing expedition and if I leave well enough alone things should be okay, however I do recognize that this was an abuse (in the scheme of things perhaps minor- no beatings, I wasn't actually brought in, no guns drawn as on some van drivers the other day, no legal guns confiscated, etc). There are probably better poster children. As long as my real life identity can remain pretty anonomous I'm willing to help, but if it will get to where I may end up public (too many strongly anti family that I want to stay civil with) or to where the FBI may take notice of me (I've done nothing wrong but don't need any hastle) it will be time for me to get on with life.

I am willing to do what I can but I am not the activist type who is willing to risk everything. I commend those who are but I'm not. Those who may attack me on that, ask yourself if you are willing to risk everything for a cause. Most of us are not. The only thing I'd do that for is G-d.

[El Rojo]

What do you have to lose Chaim? You didn't do anything wrong. I was a subsitute teacher once, what a nice care free life that was. Work when you could, take days off when you couldn't. I don't see how you have anything to lose here. If you take the FBI up on this, what are they going to do? You have committed no crimes. The only people that serve to lose on this are the people who abused your rights. Heck, this might not even go as far as you think. If you weren't recording the conversation, guess who probably was? If this guy was out of line, he might lose his job and the agency might not want to draw attention to themselves. Before you give up (don't take that as a negative, the choice is yours, not mine), see what you can do. This might end a lot easier than you think. If you didn't like your character being attacked, if you didn't like the feds knowing exactly what guns you have, if you didn't like that experience at all, I would hope you help stop it from happening agian. And if you decide not too, I understand. I would have to be in the situation myself before I could say what I would do. Just look at all of your options and know that nearly everyone at TFL would help you out if they needed too.

[ballistic gelatin]

1. Tell the guy what a dirt bag he is and "don't sing it, bring it".
2. Pack up everything you own, and haul butt.

[chaim]

Panzerboy,

I just looked at the most recent messages on the thread at AR15.com (don't know why, I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment). Well, thank you for the kind words.

Only correction, the Baltimore field office were the nice guys. That was where the guy was who I called to let them know there was a scam artist out there identifying himself as FBI. When I told him the number (that I got from *69) he was shocked because that was their number on the Montgomery County Task Force. This was where the guy was who agreed with me when I said that since it actually was their number I'd call the guy back to apologize for my tone but that I still wouldn't tell him anything because it wasn't his business (he laughed and said "I wouldn't either).

Anyway, I will ask that you don't ask people to call the Balt office because in addition to that I still stand behind what I said about losing control of info/situations. I am starting to regret posting this. It is now on two other boards that I know of (and G-d knows how many others). Neal Knox seems like a good guy but he seems to want to get me involved in something at a very active level that I'm not ready for (I really like just being an anonymous average guy). Apparently, law professors and activists have it, probably the FBI too. I just wanted to let people know why I'd be leaving for a while (when I thought I would) and to vent a bit. I certainly don't want bunches of people (dozens, hundreds, even thousands- some of these boards are big) calling up the FBI and making a big deal for me (esp. since there is no way to control what some of these people will say and may come back at me). I really don't want to come up on their radar screen again (I really am just an average, law abiding citizen- and I don't have the time, money or energy to deal with being hassled by the FBI).

[Chuck Dye]

Sorry, Chaim. You made clear in your thread opener and especially in your post time stamped 10-13-2002 11:25pm that you did not speak openly to a cold call. My reaction was to some of the responses in the rest of the thread.

[Ala Dan]

Chaim,

Sorry to hear of your misfortunes my friend! Like
most other American citizens, I want the sniper
caught too! Hell, I'm willing to help in his/her
capture myself; at my own damn expense!

But, the ruthless nature of the long arm of the
law is uncalled for; as in the case they are using
against you. Sounds like they are at wit's ins,
just grasping at all straws; and trying to make
a case. My suggestion is to use the advice
of other's, by contacting a Civil Right's lawyer
and the N.R.A. In the meantime, May Peace Come
To You.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A, Life Member

[Panzerboy]

Folks, I just HAVE to post here, both for my own conscience and because of the rich irony of this situation.

It is confirmed. One of our members at AR15.com got visited today by the FBI.

I posted in THAT thread, too.

I think crow will be served in industrial sized portions to certain individuals there.

And I'm afraid that I need to take a couple of bites too.

Chaim, I'm so very sorry. It was partially because I saw indicators of BS, and mostly because I don't WANT to believe it has gotten this bad.

But it has.

It's gotten bad enough that I called my attorney today to 1) Make sure he was still on retainer (that poor man...I envision him swilling Maalox every time I call him) and 2) to discuss how I should handle the expected FBI phone call or visit.

He was more understanding than usual; Probably because I hadn't actually DONE anything for him to have to defend me for.

But that's entirely another story altogether.

Does this board have an internal "private mail" feature? If not, Chaim, please IM Mail me on AR15.com. I'd like to converse with you about this subject before I take an action that could affect you. And no, it's not calling the Baltimore field office with my southern accent and saying:

"So, I heah y'all are hay-rassin' Jews with guns, are yah? Do Tell! Care to comment on thet?"

But please, contact me.

In Liberty,

Panz

[Commygun]

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet but this thread
has been commented on and linked at Instapundit.com.
Chaim, your famous in blogland and my guess is your
unlikely to get any further harrassment from law enforcement.

[Own Drummer]

Chaim,

Shalom. I've been chatting to a reporter from CNSNews (cnsnews.com) over the past two days or so about National Ammo Day. He's one of the decent journos (ie. non-liberal lefty scum).

Today we chatted for a while, and he asked me to send him anything I had on taxing ammunition, so I sent him what I could.

You story SO incensed me that I also sent him the link to your post. His name is Mike Betsch, so if he tracks you down and you get a call, he's a good guy.

The more I read, the more upset I get. I appreciate your reticence, and the fact that you don't want to get further involved with Knox and the Fire-Breathers, but I'd urge you to reconsider. Don't be a victim -- strike back at these bullies!

Best regards,

Kim du Toit
http://www.kimdutoit.com & http://www.ammoday.com

[Fudgie Ghost]

Remember Richard Jewell.

[GREENRAYLED]

Hey, here's an idea! Record everything, then hope that they really bug you and threaten a lot. Later on, you can use the material to write book and make a few bucks! Sounds grim, but, only half joking, if these guys think that once again, their bosses names will be plastered all over the news for yet another botched job akin to the last few of note, maybe they will think again and back off a bit. Might have a small positive effect. Ask them to come to your house...then videotape them (tell them first, of course). I'll bet they'll cool their jets.

[Rich Lucibella]

Well Neal Knox doesn't wast any time....God Bless his Refusal-to-Budge Heart!

Here's his latest alert:

An acquaintance sent me a shocking account of a Maryland man
who was called last week by a purported FBI agent who claimed to
have a list of the guns he owns, and began asking him why he had
them and where he was at the time of the sniper murders.

The man, whose Jewish name is Chaim, called the local FBI
office to tell them someone was impersonating an officer, and gave
them the number that had called. The pleasant FBI officer said
they didn't make such calls, but then recognized the number as
belonging to the Joint Task Force investigating the "Beltway
Snipings."


It gets worse. But Chaim can tell it better, so I'm sending
you the entire account which appears on The Firing Line Forum at
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...s=&threadid=13
4951&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

Webmaster Rich Lucibella notified Chaim that I wanted to talk
to him, and he immediately called. After a half-hour conversation,
in which he asked that his full name and address not be publicized
(for some good, but not-so-obvious reasons), I'm convinced he was
telling the truth.

He never waffled or backpedaled, and filled in some additional
details in a totally honest, straightforward way.

I was ready to believe him because his story fit with alleged
quotes of FBI agents and others asking citizens for tips about owners
of "assault weapons" or interest in long range shooting. Out of the
blue this week, a Camp Perry High-Power Competitor friend got a call
from a Baltimore TV station wanting his comments about sniper mentality.

He told them he didn't have the foggiest idea, that he shot for
sport and recreation. Then he referred them to his club's legislative
director.

Further, last night some stations and/or networks reported
that police thought they had the sniper -- a Baltimore ex-Marine
who had a manual on sniping and an "assault weapon" that fired the
.223 Rem,/5.56 NATO. Big whoop!

About three hours later the killer showed the cops they were
wrong when he murdered the woman at Home Depot.

I apologize for the unusual length of this report but a lot is
happening.

Here's Chaim: [quote of Chaim's opening post here then follows]

[Dizzipator]

You may also want to report this event to MPFO, as they are tracking law enforcement abuses against gun owners and gun clubs happening due to the sniper investigation.

Marylanders for the Preservation of Firerarms Ownership

[pax]

Chaim,

What a rough week for you! Do keep your chin up and don't let the b*stards get you down.

Panzer,

Class act.

pax

[El Rojo]

Chaim,

I don't know how old law mixes with new law that much, but I know that God puts you in certain places and certain times for a reason. And you might not always be willing, but sometimes you have to sacrifice your own will for His will. I think you should take this one on. Why? When a man has to fear the FBI or some task-force because he is a law abiding citizen, something needs to be done. YOU DID NOTHING WRONG! They have nothing on you. You are the one in control here. The only person that should be afraid is the guy that tried to threaten and intimidate you. His job is on the line now if you ask me. You have this tremendous amount of support and numerous resources available. Please do something about this abuse. Like I said before, this might end really quickly. The guy who did this might not be worth the entire department taking a fall and it will serve as a good reminder who has rights and who has rights granted to them by the people. Go for it Chaim. Go for it.

[Zander]

Haven't read anything so profoundly disturbing in a long time.

Please...PLEASE...take the advice proferred here; get a lawyer and refuse/do not initiate any further contact with the FBI. Contact any organization which offers the faintest hope of help.

Your private information has been compromised and is being horribly misused against you. Above all, be careful...

[MatthewM]

The police and media have been asking everyone to turn in their family and neighbors.

Maybe your parents took the advice too far?

[Calamity Jane]

Chaim, I am sickened by what is being done to you and others.

But I am heartened by the outpouring of support on this thread.

Hang in there, buddy. You've gotten excellent advice and assistance here. Remember, you have done nothing wrong. Please take care.

[Kentucky Rifle]

I sent you a PM rather than leave a post. Please check your PM's. (Bottom of the page.)

KR

[chaim]

Chaim, I'm so very sorry. It was partially because I saw indicators of BS, and mostly because I don't WANT to believe it has gotten this bad.

Don't worry about it. I understand being cynical, especially since you didn't know me from Adam (though I would have prefered putting your doubts in different terms- but since yours were mild compared to the others there I guess you already toned them down).

It's gotten bad enough that I called my attorney today to 1) Make sure he was still on retainer (that poor man...I envision him swilling Maalox every time I call him) and 2) to discuss how I should handle the expected FBI phone call or visit.

I doubt if you'll get a call on this (though you never know). Since you are in Florida you should be ok, they seem to be checking up on some of us in the DC/VA/MD area (I still wonder with my still only medium collection how I got on their radar- probably a "friend" who listened to the police asking that friends and neighbors turn in their gun owning friends for questioning).

Does this board have an internal "private mail" feature...

It looks like you found it. I PMed you back with a reply.


Warning: Advertisement follows:
Please do stick around. You seem like a decent person and this really is a good board. Huge- we are at almost the 16,600 member mark as of this morning (16,560 at 9am). That are a lot of potential contributers. We really do have some really knowlegable members on just about every gun related topic. If you are a rifle guy check the rifle section (if you like other kinds as well this is your place)

[jmlv]

TO THE NEW THREAD YOU MENTIONED? WENT TO AR15.COM BUT COULD'NT FIND IT. THANKS

[chaim]

. Sounds like they are at wit's ins...

Ala Dan,

This is one of the things I immediately thought about, and one of the scary things about it. I not only got to be harrassed but I no longer can console myself that the authorities probably know more than they're telling us and that they are closing in on the "sniper" (which is what they sometimes try to imply). If I got a call they are grasping at anything they can get- they are getting desperate. I'm afraid it may be a while before this evil (the "sniper") is stopped .

Maybe your parents took the advice too far...

Matthew,

Thanks, I did need to have the situation lightened up a bit. No my parents didn't call anyone. Despite being very anti they are incensed too (though they think I kind of brought it on by owning guns and then not keeping it a secret from everyone I know like it is some embarrassing, horrible, thing that no one should know).

I do suspect that a "friend" or more likely a friend or family member of a friend (some of my friends have bigger mouths than mine) may have listened to the authorities asking that people call in "tips" of who may own similar guns. Also, some of my "friends" have been voiceing their disapproval and they've thought I've become "obsessed" in some cases since the second gun. I guess if I really was obsessed with guns that would be good enough reason to call the FBI on suspicion of being the sniper (but with some people you never know).

[Az_Redneck]

Couple questions here....

If this clown called you, chances are he has called several more people. Chances are they were harassed as well. Can you say "class action"? Was this guy a fed or just a wannabe who works for Montgomery County? Did he identify himself as a Special Agent with the FBI? If he did and lied, I wonder how he would like the gray bar hotel for impersonating a federal agent. And if he dispatched 14 S.A.'s to beat down your door, their feet are going to get real sore with the thousands of gun owners in your area...I wonder what their response time would be...

Next, how did he get your phone number? 4473's don't even have a space for a phone number iirc. Did the FFL you bought your guns from supply it? Have you called the FFL you bought your guns from and asked him/her if they submitted their 4473's to the feds? If you purchased from several FFL's, call them all... The news said the feds are getting thousands of calls a day with leads..I'll bet you that a neighbor/friend dropped a dime on you. There is a bounty of 1/2 million $$ on this guy. There are some very greedy people in this world without a grain of values. "Yeah, I did my patriotic duty and turned in my neighbor who owns guns so the FBI could violate his first, second, fourth and fifth amendment rights..I'm proud to be an Amerikan!" :barf:

There is a GREAT organization called Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership... You're probably already familiar with them but, I think they would like to hear about this too. They have a lot of venim and a big bite when it comes to situations like this... They might even help out with literature to assist you in converting your parents. (to be PRO-gun)

Firearms? What firearms?..