Goodbye TFL- for now - Page 5

Frohickey · October 16, 2002, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Anyway, I can't be here until I know that this situation is over because the gov't apparently already thinks I'm a gun nut. I've been advised to stay off gun boards. I'm also to stay away from gun ranges for a while. When it is over I may fill in the details- for now just know that I have done nothing wrong to justify this treatment and the threats that I am getting.

Okay, I say sue the government agency under Constitutional grounds.

"I've been advised to stay off gun boards."
1) Your 1st Amendment freedom of association is being infringed.

"I'm also to stay away from gun ranges for a while."
2) Your 5th Amendment freedom is being infringed. You have not had your due process, and you are being deprived of liberty without due process.

Sue them, and buy a couple of rifles with the settlement money.

CZ Gunner · October 16, 2002, 03:55 PM

Frohickey

FWIW .. that advise wasn't from the FBI but from family/friends. (That got lost somewhere in the thread.)

We're with you chaim!

chaim · October 16, 2002, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Next, how did he get your phone number? 4473's don't even have a space for a phone number iirc.

Something interesting that I DIDN'T report originally. After I spoke with the agent I checked my missed calls log on my cell phone (I habitually check it a couple times a day) and his number was on that too. SO yes, I'm pretty sure he got my number from a "friend" or more likely, a friend or family member of a friend with a big mouth.

This seems to be spreading. Panzerboy reported knowing someone online who got a VISIT from an FBI guy. On another thread here "Guntalk" reported getting a call from a MD cop verifing that he was talking on the phone (I'm guessing on the phone) at the time of one of the shootings with a MD gunowner who had a visit and was told to verify his whereabouts. My brother told me today that a friend of his roommate recently bought a rifle and as a result had a visit from an FBI agent as well, demanding to know his whereabouts during the shootings.

Very ugly.

Southla1 · October 16, 2002, 08:09 PM

As posted by Huck Phinn"Answer questions from a cold caller? Take orders?"

Hell I don't even do that for my WIFE..............Take orders, from someone over the phone? sure I will .............In 2 days...............2 days after hell freezes over!

Seriously chaim I am sure you have your reasons for just wanting things to "get back to normal" as you said..............but I get mad and when I get mad I get mean and when I get mean I get even by ANY means possible.................I would let Mr Knox take that ball and run all the way to the end zone with it.............along with (as I posted earlier) making this a public matter...............let the whole damn world KNOW!

danaesq · October 16, 2002, 08:43 PM

Chaim:

Though my personal experience with FBI guys has generally been good due to my being in law enforcement for a number of years, they are generally classified as a "high ego" bunch. That, combined with the fact that law enforcement officers can lie to you as much as they want, makes them prone to say just about anything, no matter how stupid it sounds. They start with nothing and build up from there. Often, they end up with nothing. However, there is no excuse for being a jerk on a telephone follow-up. If they thought that it was anything more than a "check this guy off" type of call, they would have sent a couple of agents over to the house to look around your place, see if you would show them your guns, screw yourself up, etc.

Also, 13 guns? Give me a break. Do we need to start a collection for you or hold a bake sale, a raffle?? I haven't had 13 guns since I was 7 or 8 (OK-Maybe a slight exaggeration, but no more than a two or three decades)

The bottom line is that the guy was probably in a pissy mood from having to do the grunt work in the first place. Secondly, he had probably already been told 15 times in the last two hours in one way or the other to pound sand up his butt. That tends to make anyone cranky, especially a Fed who thinks he is not getting the proper respect that he thinks he deserves.

I think that a call to the NRA, however, is a good idea. Let them run with it for a while. In the meantime, hang in there.

BTW-It sounds like you handled it pretty well. The only thing I would have done differentl is after you talked to the jerk the second time, I would have called back and bitched him out again, throwing in the cops/ATF threat, etc. Sounds like he is a slow learner. Some dogs just never learn when and where to pee but most can learn with the correct amount of incentive and discipline. It ain't J. Edgar's FBI anymore.

Prodigalshooter · October 16, 2002, 09:02 PM

One of the saddest and silliest things about all this harrassment, is that it's pretty damn obvious by now that these shootings are being carried out by a team of very dedicated terrorists, NOT a "wacko" going off the deep end all of a sudden, "he was always so quiet and polite". Nope these agents are really off course.

Glen R · October 16, 2002, 11:12 PM

I can understand being upset, but I'd just drop it. Notify the conservative news sources if you want, but don't pursue a lawsuit or complaint. It won't get you anyplace as the FBI and BATF don't answer to a higher power. The quicker you get out of their sights the better. You may still want to document all of this and send it to yourself via registerd mail, but that's it. If they didn't take anything or search your home it's not the biggest deal in the world.

Sorry to hear about your mistreatment, but your life will be easier if you go on your way.

Regards,
Glen

El Rojo · October 17, 2002, 12:21 AM

I suspect Glen R might be the officer who called you.

Inner Dark · October 17, 2002, 02:08 AM

Chaim
My sympathies. You should report the caller and I hope you have. Give the date, time and numbers used. A name if you have it. Their own phone logs will identify the caller. There is no place in this investigation for incompetence. Obviously they pulled someone off a bench who either lacked experience at telephone interviews, or who is totally incompetent, or way too tired to conduct the interviews properly. Either way they need to be reassigned back to the bench.

Others
This case is the anti-gun owners dream come true. With the insanity going on in MD/DC/VA it is not too difficult to imagine phone inquiries having been approved as a rough filtering mechanism. The investigation is becoming a circus. In the early days they held up some rifles and said if you know someone who has one of these call us. If you know someone with a white truck call us. The .223 was described as a weapon not too many people own. (I don't know if that was a total lack of knowledge about shooting, or if a hidden agenda was behind the statement. I suspect the first.) Needless to say as the death toll continues to rise the phones, they are aringing. Every anti gun nut who knows someone who deer hunts is calling, every body who sees a white vehicle going down the highway is calling, every ex spouse or jilted lover is calling, anyone who saw a neighbor in the sporting goods section of Kmart or Walmart is calling, etc. The list goes on. Add to the mix the governor deciding his presence is needed at press conferences, and the county supervisor, an investigation that crossed a dozen jurisdictional lines on just the first day, FBI and ATF initially seeing a good press opportunity then being ordered to actually work the case instead of just doing their usual "thanks for solving this, we'll take it from here" and media vans following detectives on their way home in the hopes they are pursuing a lead and you get an idea of the circus. The first two days they didn't have enough phones, let along people to answer the calls. They pulled prison guards, game wardens, and all sorts of quasi law enforcement types off the bench to handle the phone calls. At the same time ATF is doing their thing of visiting dealers and distributors for sales records and adding those names to the lead list. As of today we even had Homeland Security and the military joining the mix. Each new agency juining claims the local county chief is in charge, but each has their own reason why they want to be tthe ones credited with solving it. {I am so happy I have never owned a .223 of any kind, and that I have never owned a light colored vehicle, much less a white van. You should be too if you don't.} I think when the investigation is finally over and the dust settles we will learn all sorts of civil privacy statutes and expectations of privacy were violated (possibly with administrative search warrants we have yet to learn of, and possibly with consents of the S&W type as a condition of continued licensing). I suspect data matching of FFL holder lists with zoning licensing approval lists is well underway. Most companies keep mailing lists of who they shipped ammo and barrels to. There is probably cross matching of vehicle ownership records to those lists going on too. The Post Office has probably been asked to supply a list of who gets gun magazines in the mail. Since a shooting happened in front of a Post Office they are probably happy to help. Every single list you can imagine is probably being added to the pile of potential leads. Three or four times now they have initiated roadblocks to shut down the DC Metro area while they look for and search each and every white delivery van they can find. (God knows what that has cost America in lost wages and late deliveries.) Presumably they are now cross matching a list of vehicles and drivers and passengers identified with the other lists too. They now have at least 200 investigators on this. It ain't nearly enough! They probably have over a million useless "leads" already and more coming in with each ring of the phone or ding of the email. I am not surprized that someone clued them to GUN OWNERSHIP, which is after all an important clue to who is and who isn't a shooter. Maybe an ex girl friend or a neighbor recalls someone getting a ride once in a white van and calls that in too. Whoops, your name just came up on two lists and somewhere a computer dings. Did you ever write a post on one of the "watched bulletin boards" (yes, there are some since 9/11) that was perhaps a little critical of someone? Does an ex spouse have a stay away order for reasons of domestic violence, but you bought ammo at Kmart last week anyway? Oops. There is that durn computer dinging again. Of course someone somewhere knows it is all probably nonsense, but still your name does show up on at least 3 or more lists (along with probably 2 millon other people). What to do? Other leads look too good to pull an investigator off, so how to filter? To me, the obvious answer in the old NCIS multi suspect interview questionairre in a new telephone format. Call each person who hits 2, 3, 4 or more times and ask them some questions designed to eliminate or develop further leads. The question here is the skill, experience and stability level of the guy making the calls. He/she probably has a list of 5,000 numbers to be called today, has not had a day off since day two, and has been placed on mandatory 12 or 16 hour days till all possible leads are checked out. (Of course each new shooting generates another 50,000 leads.) Are the agencies supplying investigators putting their best people on the phones, or do they put them on the street? My guess is some of both. If I was called and innocent, I don't think refusing to discuss anything without my lawyers approval would help me, or the investigators very much. If nothing else it would keep me on the list of potential suspects and another victim could die simply because an investigator or six was wasting time clearing me instead of spending efforts elsewhere. How much to tell them? I don't know. When the guy that sweeps the firing range (or another member of your club) tells them you bought .223 ammo last week, should you agree to turn your .223 over voluntarily for ballistics testing? Again I don't know. I would certainly insist on a signed receipt and be sure the receipt listed replacement value, the name of the recipient, his agency, and an estimate of the day it was to be returned. Should you allow them to search your home when they show up? I don't know. We all want the guy caught, but if you give consent and some idiot starts ripping your floor boards up, it becomes hard to stop, and you did consent. For obvious reasons they are probably interested in all your guns for ballistic matching. We all must be careful here. Remember the crime of the shootings has become a Federal crime when state lines were crossed and interstate commerce was effected (the roadblocks and cancelled business meetings). A false answer to someone investigating a Federal crime (even if it is a county deputy or town cop doing the asking) is a felony crime by itself. You say no, and they find out you lied when you said you had no other weapons you could find yourself in deep dodo and arrested immediatly or 4 years later, search warrants, etc. When would they return a gun seized for ballistics testing? Who knows. Maybe never. It could be lost, or while waiting in line for its turn at testing maybe Kennedy will get a bill passed barring possesion of arms of that type. Maybe it comes back damaged. There are a lot of issues here. Maybe if I had a .223 I would give them that, but it would not be stored with other calibers (plain view. They will go with you when you disappear into a back room to get your rifle as they are looking for a killer.) If they asked me if I had other weapons I think I would refuse to answer, and call my lawyer. Of course they are there because your name came up 3 or 4 times on different lists (and maybe you waved the constitution at the guy who called and hung up on him), but once you admitted to having a .223 in the house they now have probable cause to believe you have one, and under the exigent circumstance rule a warrant might not be necessary to seize it for testing, and if seized (and you are pissing them off by wanting a lawyer and no longer telling them how many other guns you have) then why should they trouble to sign your reciept?

Guys and gals, we are on a slippery slope here and some guidance and noise from the NRA leadership is needed to help control this circus.

To add to our concern, all this data they are collecting on who owns what, you can expect them to keep it forever, or at least until the shooter loses his last appeal. By then defense lawyers and prosecutors and every agency involved in this circus will have at least one copy of all of it. Probably back ups too.

Leatherneck · October 17, 2002, 07:30 AM

InnerDark,
Welcome to TFL. Maybe it's just my mood, but that was possibly the most depressing post I've ever read. Slippery slope indeed!
TC

Charlie D · October 17, 2002, 08:24 AM

Hi chaim,

You Said:
I am willing to do what I can but I am not the activist type who is willing to risk everything. I commend those who are but I'm not. Those who may attack me on that, ask yourself if you are willing to risk everything for a cause. Most of us are not. The only thing I'd do that for is G-d.
================

I've been following the thread. You come across as very rational. In case this develops into a "can of worms" for you I suggest that you take screen shots of each page in the thread to prove what has transpired and how you've come across.

I suggest screen shots that include the logos and page setup since if you just copy/paste the text into "Word" or something there is the possibility that you or someone else could have edited them.

Charlie

Thumper · October 17, 2002, 08:33 AM

InnerDark, good post and welcome.

Rojo, it's surprising how often you pre-post my thoughts.

danaesq · October 17, 2002, 12:37 PM

Regarding a discussion about consent searches, cooperating, etc., please note that I am POST certified with a Professional or Advanced rating in two states. I was on the job for a number of years. NEVER allow a consent search of your car, house, person, etc. Don't sign anything unless it is a summons and you are signing the promise to appear. It is NOT an admission of guilt. Be polite, be respectful, be firm. If they had enough reasonable suspicion or probable cause, they would just do it without asking you, though I got permission quite often for CYA purposes. A huge amount of law enforcement success, when it occurs, is because the suspect helped out the cops to catch him. In your case, you are innocent of wrongdoing but that doesn't protect you from lost, cost, expense from a zealous officer or agent. Anyone who thinks that truth will ultimately prevail is right. However, that applies only to the Hereafter, not this one. In this one you may just get the green weinie. Who knows what they may or may not find. It just isn't worth the hassle. Let them bluff, let them accuse you of having something to hide, let them threaten. Just advise them nicely to the effect of, "Gentlemen, if you don't have a warrant I don't believe that there is anything else to discuss", wish them Good day or Good night, don't cuss them at all, especially with women or children around, and close the door softly.

kalibear45 · October 17, 2002, 01:11 PM

Sorta reminds of somebody

whizz · October 17, 2002, 01:25 PM

Having followed this thread for a while I am getting more and more confused. I have always thought that our swedish governmental agencies were "control freaks" but this seems a bit ... ehhh ... lets say, too much. And here, all legal weapons have been registred in a federal database but I have never heard of anyone having such a call from any agency.
OK, once I was harassed by an immigration officer from your justice department at the state border between AZ and CA when travelling by car. They were checking every single car and truck. After answered the question where I came from and which was my destination I was asked of my nationality. (I can assure you that I do not look mexican at all.) "Well, I´m swedish", was my reply. And what do I hear him say? Not: "OK thank you sir, have a nice stay." But: "PULL OVER and step out of the car!" After getting out of the car I am told to present to him my passport?! He checks my passport and asks where my visa is. I very politely informs him of the legislation concerning scandinavian citizens and why I do not need any visa to visit your country. I got very upset by his behaviour and so pi**ed off, that he asked me if I wanted to get locked up for a while. I had to get to SD that evening so no further arguing from me got me into the car. I will never forget his words when giving me my passport back: "You take care...!" in a very hostile manner.
Maybe too many hot hours in the dusty desert I have always thought but after hearing your story "chaim", I am not sure any more. Seems like the good ol´US is getting more like the former USSR.

Keifer · October 17, 2002, 01:42 PM

is there a possibility that some of the provisions in the "terrorism" bill that GWB signed last year cover the keeping of a firearms database?

My sympathies and support for Chaim and other MD law abiding citizens who are under the microscope right now but my big question is How the he!! do the feds know what he has in his gun safe? I don't buy that his "friends" provided the info because my anti friends can't tell the difference between an O/U shotgun and an AR.

Inner Dark · October 17, 2002, 02:37 PM

I would guess through a combination of leads ranging from asking credit card companies about all customers who made possible purchases of guns or ammo at sporting goods centers, to similar reviews of bank and insurance company records (possibly accompanied by some kind of generic court subpoena), to visits to shooting clubs and ranges for lists of members and users, to ATF form reviews, to ex girl friends talking, etc. Were all the guns bought at one store?

We are in potentially scary times and we do not have any real information from sources close to the investigation on what is and isn't being done (which is as it should be I guess). All we are getting are little snippets like Chaim's story and 10 O'clock news footage of detectives and ATF agents carrying multiple rifles and ammo out of someone's home with no explanation of who they were or why the weapons were seized. WTOP radio (107.7 FM and 1500 AM) did interviews today with guys who drove white vans and who allegedly don't object to being repeatedly pulled over and searched every day. Not one interview objecting to repeated searches was aired. Were there any? Who knows.

Yesterday we were told a witness saw an AK 74 (last week we were told they are looking for AR-15 owners), today we are told the interest is in the entire class of .221, .222 and .223 weapons to include bolt actions, AR 15s and AK 74s. Sounds like the recovered bullet fragments are either not revealing much, or else they are showing multiple weapons. I suppose it is possible to machine an AR-15 barrel onto a Mauser bolt action, or vise versa, but it seems pretty far fetched to me. No data involving the recovered cases has been released. We had an account from one person who supposedly saw the shooting and claimed the shooter was about 50 feet away, but today the witness is unreliable. (FYI, this guy is no York or Hathcock, he seems to do most of his shots from less than 75 yards. A policeman who heard a shot last week ran to where the shot came from and found the victim instead of the shooter, so the range was short. Evidence suggests he is parking his truck/van/car as if it was a mobile deer stand and just waits for someone to walk into his chosen field of fire at short ranges. A lot like an average shooting NE deer hunter with short ranges and a pre-positioned stand.)

dZ · October 17, 2002, 03:29 PM

for those of you that don't bother to read the legal & political forum:
5000 rifles confiscated in Maryland

Nannuk · October 17, 2002, 04:25 PM

My thoughts are with you Chaim. And all gun owners in the Area.

That being said, I would like to post a short comment to refute the notion that this is just an isolated event. The last time I went to my "local" range there was a sherrif deputy sitting across the street from said ranges entrance. I have never seen that before, and it is POSSIBLE that he was there in a speed trap setting, however given the location and condition of the road at that point I doubt it. Now this is in the Heart of Texas during a time of year that every man woman and child is sighting in their rifle for the upcoming deer season.

Didn't think too much of it at the time, but after reading this thread I feel like pulling the plates off my car and trading them with my GF

. Seriously, I think this MD shooting spree is going to affect us throughout this country.

Nannuk
Sic Semper Tyrannis

snubby · October 17, 2002, 04:42 PM

Take advantage of the "Gun Show Loophole" and buy as many guns offline (and off 4473) as you can, while you can!

Mike Catts · October 17, 2002, 09:23 PM

and say that it looks like you have alot of good advice here. One point that I think that needs to be made though. There have been several posts talking about the 4473's "being sent in" The 4473 does not go anywhere but in your dealers files until that dealer goes out of business. If your dealer sent these in then they violated the law. Even ATF agents are not allowed to remove them from the stores location except by court order (search warrant) At last check it is still illegal for them to even make a copy of them, they may make notes off of them but that is it.
Mike

Shadowblade · October 18, 2002, 01:13 AM

It has been reported that they are making copies.

Hang in there chaim... I'm sure you are one of hundreds, if not thousands being harrased in one way or another. Hopefully it will blow over soon.

cor-man · October 18, 2002, 01:58 AM

"I think this MD shooting spree is going to affect us throughout this country."

We need for this to affect us: in a positive way.

We need to act on these shootings that make the news and show:

a.) what is wrong with gun control laws

b.) what outcomes could be different if all or at least more law-abiding citizens were packing.

We need to quit cringing when shootings make the news;
we need instead to speak up immediately in the aftermath;

the NRA or some organization should be posting articles, ads, armed-citizen stories, etc. across the mainstream media;
doing everything they can to get the message of TRUTH out to the public; the shooting themselves have gotten the public's attention, how that we have their attention let's use it for good.

for example this sniper situation:

a.) Maryland has stricter gun control laws than a lot of states;
how the hell did that stop or prevent this sniper?! answer: it didn't!
Lesson to be learned?: gun control will never have any affect on criminals!

b.) I understand a ccw person once shot by the sniper might not be able to return fire and stop the creep, BUT:

- they MIGHT be able to return fire, if sniper missed entirely or hit them only in the leg or arm.

- a ccw person who is near the sniper and witnesses the event has a way to stop the sniper right there.

- a ccw person who witnesses the event from a distance can get in their car and give-chase to the sniper, knowing that they can defend themself if the sniper stops their vehicle to shoot at them.

THIS kind of message needs to be plastered out there every time we has some ahole shooting innocent victims making the news.
This message and also more stories from "The Armed Citizen" and similar.

chaim · October 18, 2002, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Take advantage of the "Gun Show Loophole" and buy as many guns offline (and off 4473) as you can, while you can!

Um, this is MD. There is no "Gun Show Loophole". If you buy from a dealer you must use the forms. If an individual wants to sell a handgun (gun show or not) both the buyer and seller MUST report to the local state police barracks (with the gun) to register, er, fill out the background check forms for the sale. Private party rifle sales aren't subject (yet), I think, to these laws (but after this I'm sure they will be) but usally they can't get a table at a gun show. Since most local gun shows don't let you bring guns in, they don't want competition for the paying dealers, you don't see very many guys with a rifle for sale on their back- though it does happen at some of them.

bigdawg357 · October 18, 2002, 09:08 AM

Quote from jmlv:

Quote:

PANZER CAN YOPU PROVIDE A LINK
TO THE NEW THREAD YOU MENTIONED? WENT TO AR15.COM BUT COULD'NT FIND IT. THANKS

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=149406

October 16, 2002, 03:55 PM	#102
CZ Gunner Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 799	Frohickey FWIW .. that advise wasn't from the FBI but from family/friends. (That got lost somewhere in the thread.) We're with you chaim! __________________ Gunner "Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." -- Vegitius, c. 375 AD

October 16, 2002, 08:43 PM	#105
danaesq Junior Member Join Date: October 4, 2002 Posts: 11	FBI fibbers Chaim: Though my personal experience with FBI guys has generally been good due to my being in law enforcement for a number of years, they are generally classified as a "high ego" bunch. That, combined with the fact that law enforcement officers can lie to you as much as they want, makes them prone to say just about anything, no matter how stupid it sounds. They start with nothing and build up from there. Often, they end up with nothing. However, there is no excuse for being a jerk on a telephone follow-up. If they thought that it was anything more than a "check this guy off" type of call, they would have sent a couple of agents over to the house to look around your place, see if you would show them your guns, screw yourself up, etc. Also, 13 guns? Give me a break. Do we need to start a collection for you or hold a bake sale, a raffle?? I haven't had 13 guns since I was 7 or 8 (OK-Maybe a slight exaggeration, but no more than a two or three decades) The bottom line is that the guy was probably in a pissy mood from having to do the grunt work in the first place. Secondly, he had probably already been told 15 times in the last two hours in one way or the other to pound sand up his butt. That tends to make anyone cranky, especially a Fed who thinks he is not getting the proper respect that he thinks he deserves. I think that a call to the NRA, however, is a good idea. Let them run with it for a while. In the meantime, hang in there. BTW-It sounds like you handled it pretty well. The only thing I would have done differentl is after you talked to the jerk the second time, I would have called back and bitched him out again, throwing in the cops/ATF threat, etc. Sounds like he is a slow learner. Some dogs just never learn when and where to pee but most can learn with the correct amount of incentive and discipline. It ain't J. Edgar's FBI anymore. __________________ danaesq

October 17, 2002, 12:21 AM	#108
El Rojo Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2000 Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 2,057	I suspect Glen R might be the officer who called you. __________________ Get Some!

October 17, 2002, 02:08 AM	#109
Inner Dark Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: VA Posts: 28	Chaim and others Chaim My sympathies. You should report the caller and I hope you have. Give the date, time and numbers used. A name if you have it. Their own phone logs will identify the caller. There is no place in this investigation for incompetence. Obviously they pulled someone off a bench who either lacked experience at telephone interviews, or who is totally incompetent, or way too tired to conduct the interviews properly. Either way they need to be reassigned back to the bench. Others This case is the anti-gun owners dream come true. With the insanity going on in MD/DC/VA it is not too difficult to imagine phone inquiries having been approved as a rough filtering mechanism. The investigation is becoming a circus. In the early days they held up some rifles and said if you know someone who has one of these call us. If you know someone with a white truck call us. The .223 was described as a weapon not too many people own. (I don't know if that was a total lack of knowledge about shooting, or if a hidden agenda was behind the statement. I suspect the first.) Needless to say as the death toll continues to rise the phones, they are aringing. Every anti gun nut who knows someone who deer hunts is calling, every body who sees a white vehicle going down the highway is calling, every ex spouse or jilted lover is calling, anyone who saw a neighbor in the sporting goods section of Kmart or Walmart is calling, etc. The list goes on. Add to the mix the governor deciding his presence is needed at press conferences, and the county supervisor, an investigation that crossed a dozen jurisdictional lines on just the first day, FBI and ATF initially seeing a good press opportunity then being ordered to actually work the case instead of just doing their usual "thanks for solving this, we'll take it from here" and media vans following detectives on their way home in the hopes they are pursuing a lead and you get an idea of the circus. The first two days they didn't have enough phones, let along people to answer the calls. They pulled prison guards, game wardens, and all sorts of quasi law enforcement types off the bench to handle the phone calls. At the same time ATF is doing their thing of visiting dealers and distributors for sales records and adding those names to the lead list. As of today we even had Homeland Security and the military joining the mix. Each new agency juining claims the local county chief is in charge, but each has their own reason why they want to be tthe ones credited with solving it. {I am so happy I have never owned a .223 of any kind, and that I have never owned a light colored vehicle, much less a white van. You should be too if you don't.} I think when the investigation is finally over and the dust settles we will learn all sorts of civil privacy statutes and expectations of privacy were violated (possibly with administrative search warrants we have yet to learn of, and possibly with consents of the S&W type as a condition of continued licensing). I suspect data matching of FFL holder lists with zoning licensing approval lists is well underway. Most companies keep mailing lists of who they shipped ammo and barrels to. There is probably cross matching of vehicle ownership records to those lists going on too. The Post Office has probably been asked to supply a list of who gets gun magazines in the mail. Since a shooting happened in front of a Post Office they are probably happy to help. Every single list you can imagine is probably being added to the pile of potential leads. Three or four times now they have initiated roadblocks to shut down the DC Metro area while they look for and search each and every white delivery van they can find. (God knows what that has cost America in lost wages and late deliveries.) Presumably they are now cross matching a list of vehicles and drivers and passengers identified with the other lists too. They now have at least 200 investigators on this. It ain't nearly enough! They probably have over a million useless "leads" already and more coming in with each ring of the phone or ding of the email. I am not surprized that someone clued them to GUN OWNERSHIP, which is after all an important clue to who is and who isn't a shooter. Maybe an ex girl friend or a neighbor recalls someone getting a ride once in a white van and calls that in too. Whoops, your name just came up on two lists and somewhere a computer dings. Did you ever write a post on one of the "watched bulletin boards" (yes, there are some since 9/11) that was perhaps a little critical of someone? Does an ex spouse have a stay away order for reasons of domestic violence, but you bought ammo at Kmart last week anyway? Oops. There is that durn computer dinging again. Of course someone somewhere knows it is all probably nonsense, but still your name does show up on at least 3 or more lists (along with probably 2 millon other people). What to do? Other leads look too good to pull an investigator off, so how to filter? To me, the obvious answer in the old NCIS multi suspect interview questionairre in a new telephone format. Call each person who hits 2, 3, 4 or more times and ask them some questions designed to eliminate or develop further leads. The question here is the skill, experience and stability level of the guy making the calls. He/she probably has a list of 5,000 numbers to be called today, has not had a day off since day two, and has been placed on mandatory 12 or 16 hour days till all possible leads are checked out. (Of course each new shooting generates another 50,000 leads.) Are the agencies supplying investigators putting their best people on the phones, or do they put them on the street? My guess is some of both. If I was called and innocent, I don't think refusing to discuss anything without my lawyers approval would help me, or the investigators very much. If nothing else it would keep me on the list of potential suspects and another victim could die simply because an investigator or six was wasting time clearing me instead of spending efforts elsewhere. How much to tell them? I don't know. When the guy that sweeps the firing range (or another member of your club) tells them you bought .223 ammo last week, should you agree to turn your .223 over voluntarily for ballistics testing? Again I don't know. I would certainly insist on a signed receipt and be sure the receipt listed replacement value, the name of the recipient, his agency, and an estimate of the day it was to be returned. Should you allow them to search your home when they show up? I don't know. We all want the guy caught, but if you give consent and some idiot starts ripping your floor boards up, it becomes hard to stop, and you did consent. For obvious reasons they are probably interested in all your guns for ballistic matching. We all must be careful here. Remember the crime of the shootings has become a Federal crime when state lines were crossed and interstate commerce was effected (the roadblocks and cancelled business meetings). A false answer to someone investigating a Federal crime (even if it is a county deputy or town cop doing the asking) is a felony crime by itself. You say no, and they find out you lied when you said you had no other weapons you could find yourself in deep dodo and arrested immediatly or 4 years later, search warrants, etc. When would they return a gun seized for ballistics testing? Who knows. Maybe never. It could be lost, or while waiting in line for its turn at testing maybe Kennedy will get a bill passed barring possesion of arms of that type. Maybe it comes back damaged. There are a lot of issues here. Maybe if I had a .223 I would give them that, but it would not be stored with other calibers (plain view. They will go with you when you disappear into a back room to get your rifle as they are looking for a killer.) If they asked me if I had other weapons I think I would refuse to answer, and call my lawyer. Of course they are there because your name came up 3 or 4 times on different lists (and maybe you waved the constitution at the guy who called and hung up on him), but once you admitted to having a .223 in the house they now have probable cause to believe you have one, and under the exigent circumstance rule a warrant might not be necessary to seize it for testing, and if seized (and you are pissing them off by wanting a lawyer and no longer telling them how many other guns you have) then why should they trouble to sign your reciept? Guys and gals, we are on a slippery slope here and some guidance and noise from the NRA leadership is needed to help control this circus. To add to our concern, all this data they are collecting on who owns what, you can expect them to keep it forever, or at least until the shooter loses his last appeal. By then defense lawyers and prosecutors and every agency involved in this circus will have at least one copy of all of it. Probably back ups too.

October 17, 2002, 08:33 AM	#112
Thumper Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2000 Location: Sugar Land, Tx Posts: 1,507	InnerDark, good post and welcome. Rojo, it's surprising how often you pre-post my thoughts. __________________ Ronnie- Proud Veteran, Neocon, Warmongering, Baby-Pincher

October 16, 2002, 08:09 PM	#104
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	As posted by Huck Phinn"Answer questions from a cold caller? Take orders?" Hell I don't even do that for my WIFE..............Take orders, from someone over the phone? sure I will .............In 2 days...............2 days after hell freezes over! Seriously chaim I am sure you have your reasons for just wanting things to "get back to normal" as you said..............but I get mad and when I get mad I get mean and when I get mean I get even by ANY means possible.................I would let Mr Knox take that ball and run all the way to the end zone with it.............along with (as I posted earlier) making this a public matter...............let the whole damn world KNOW!

October 16, 2002, 09:02 PM	#106
Prodigalshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: SoCal Posts: 426	One of the saddest and silliest things about all this harrassment, is that it's pretty damn obvious by now that these shootings are being carried out by a team of very dedicated terrorists, NOT a "wacko" going off the deep end all of a sudden, "he was always so quiet and polite". Nope these agents are really off course.

October 16, 2002, 11:12 PM	#107
Glen R Member Join Date: October 4, 2002 Location: Metro Detroit Posts: 42	I can understand being upset, but I'd just drop it. Notify the conservative news sources if you want, but don't pursue a lawsuit or complaint. It won't get you anyplace as the FBI and BATF don't answer to a higher power. The quicker you get out of their sights the better. You may still want to document all of this and send it to yourself via registerd mail, but that's it. If they didn't take anything or search your home it's not the biggest deal in the world. Sorry to hear about your mistreatment, but your life will be easier if you go on your way. Regards, Glen

October 17, 2002, 07:30 AM	#110
Leatherneck Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 292	InnerDark, Welcome to TFL. Maybe it's just my mood, but that was possibly the most depressing post I've ever read. Slippery slope indeed! TC

October 17, 2002, 08:24 AM	#111
Charlie D Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2000 Location: Newark, DE USA Posts: 166	Hi chaim, You Said: I am willing to do what I can but I am not the activist type who is willing to risk everything. I commend those who are but I'm not. Those who may attack me on that, ask yourself if you are willing to risk everything for a cause. Most of us are not. The only thing I'd do that for is G-d. ================ I've been following the thread. You come across as very rational. In case this develops into a "can of worms" for you I suggest that you take screen shots of each page in the thread to prove what has transpired and how you've come across. I suggest screen shots that include the logos and page setup since if you just copy/paste the text into "Word" or something there is the possibility that you or someone else could have edited them. Charlie

October 17, 2002, 12:37 PM	#113
danaesq Junior Member Join Date: October 4, 2002 Posts: 11	FBI Fibbers, cont. Regarding a discussion about consent searches, cooperating, etc., please note that I am POST certified with a Professional or Advanced rating in two states. I was on the job for a number of years. NEVER allow a consent search of your car, house, person, etc. Don't sign anything unless it is a summons and you are signing the promise to appear. It is NOT an admission of guilt. Be polite, be respectful, be firm. If they had enough reasonable suspicion or probable cause, they would just do it without asking you, though I got permission quite often for CYA purposes. A huge amount of law enforcement success, when it occurs, is because the suspect helped out the cops to catch him. In your case, you are innocent of wrongdoing but that doesn't protect you from lost, cost, expense from a zealous officer or agent. Anyone who thinks that truth will ultimately prevail is right. However, that applies only to the Hereafter, not this one. In this one you may just get the green weinie. Who knows what they may or may not find. It just isn't worth the hassle. Let them bluff, let them accuse you of having something to hide, let them threaten. Just advise them nicely to the effect of, "Gentlemen, if you don't have a warrant I don't believe that there is anything else to discuss", wish them Good day or Good night, don't cuss them at all, especially with women or children around, and close the door softly. __________________ danaesq

October 17, 2002, 01:25 PM	#115
whizz Member Join Date: January 25, 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 93	Having followed this thread for a while I am getting more and more confused. I have always thought that our swedish governmental agencies were "control freaks" but this seems a bit ... ehhh ... lets say, too much. And here, all legal weapons have been registred in a federal database but I have never heard of anyone having such a call from any agency. OK, once I was harassed by an immigration officer from your justice department at the state border between AZ and CA when travelling by car. They were checking every single car and truck. After answered the question where I came from and which was my destination I was asked of my nationality. (I can assure you that I do not look mexican at all.) "Well, I´m swedish", was my reply. And what do I hear him say? Not: "OK thank you sir, have a nice stay." But: "PULL OVER and step out of the car!" After getting out of the car I am told to present to him my passport?! He checks my passport and asks where my visa is. I very politely informs him of the legislation concerning scandinavian citizens and why I do not need any visa to visit your country. I got very upset by his behaviour and so pi**ed off, that he asked me if I wanted to get locked up for a while. I had to get to SD that evening so no further arguing from me got me into the car. I will never forget his words when giving me my passport back: "You take care...!" in a very hostile manner. Maybe too many hot hours in the dusty desert I have always thought but after hearing your story "chaim", I am not sure any more. Seems like the good ol´US is getting more like the former USSR. __________________ "When you hear someone shout DUCK, do not do the quack-quack sound ..."

October 17, 2002, 01:42 PM	#116
Keifer Member Join Date: January 13, 2000 Location: Illinois Posts: 89	is there a possibility that some of the provisions in the "terrorism" bill that GWB signed last year cover the keeping of a firearms database? My sympathies and support for Chaim and other MD law abiding citizens who are under the microscope right now but my big question is How the he!! do the feds know what he has in his gun safe? I don't buy that his "friends" provided the info because my anti friends can't tell the difference between an O/U shotgun and an AR.

October 17, 2002, 02:37 PM	#117
Inner Dark Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: VA Posts: 28	Keifer I would guess through a combination of leads ranging from asking credit card companies about all customers who made possible purchases of guns or ammo at sporting goods centers, to similar reviews of bank and insurance company records (possibly accompanied by some kind of generic court subpoena), to visits to shooting clubs and ranges for lists of members and users, to ATF form reviews, to ex girl friends talking, etc. Were all the guns bought at one store? We are in potentially scary times and we do not have any real information from sources close to the investigation on what is and isn't being done (which is as it should be I guess). All we are getting are little snippets like Chaim's story and 10 O'clock news footage of detectives and ATF agents carrying multiple rifles and ammo out of someone's home with no explanation of who they were or why the weapons were seized. WTOP radio (107.7 FM and 1500 AM) did interviews today with guys who drove white vans and who allegedly don't object to being repeatedly pulled over and searched every day. Not one interview objecting to repeated searches was aired. Were there any? Who knows. Yesterday we were told a witness saw an AK 74 (last week we were told they are looking for AR-15 owners), today we are told the interest is in the entire class of .221, .222 and .223 weapons to include bolt actions, AR 15s and AK 74s. Sounds like the recovered bullet fragments are either not revealing much, or else they are showing multiple weapons. I suppose it is possible to machine an AR-15 barrel onto a Mauser bolt action, or vise versa, but it seems pretty far fetched to me. No data involving the recovered cases has been released. We had an account from one person who supposedly saw the shooting and claimed the shooter was about 50 feet away, but today the witness is unreliable. (FYI, this guy is no York or Hathcock, he seems to do most of his shots from less than 75 yards. A policeman who heard a shot last week ran to where the shot came from and found the victim instead of the shooter, so the range was short. Evidence suggests he is parking his truck/van/car as if it was a mobile deer stand and just waits for someone to walk into his chosen field of fire at short ranges. A lot like an average shooting NE deer hunter with short ranges and a pre-positioned stand.)

October 17, 2002, 03:29 PM	#118
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	for those of you that don't bother to read the legal & political forum: 5000 rifles confiscated in Maryland __________________ "O tell the Lacedomecians to damn the torpedoes." BOTR, Chapter V: Some Monsters

October 17, 2002, 04:25 PM	#119
Nannuk Member Join Date: September 11, 2002 Location: Hill Country TX Posts: 97	My thoughts are with you Chaim. And all gun owners in the Area. That being said, I would like to post a short comment to refute the notion that this is just an isolated event. The last time I went to my "local" range there was a sherrif deputy sitting across the street from said ranges entrance. I have never seen that before, and it is POSSIBLE that he was there in a speed trap setting, however given the location and condition of the road at that point I doubt it. Now this is in the Heart of Texas during a time of year that every man woman and child is sighting in their rifle for the upcoming deer season. Didn't think too much of it at the time, but after reading this thread I feel like pulling the plates off my car and trading them with my GF . Seriously, I think this MD shooting spree is going to affect us throughout this country. Nannuk Sic Semper Tyrannis

October 17, 2002, 04:42 PM	#120
snubby Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2002 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 181	Take advantage of the "Gun Show Loophole" and buy as many guns offline (and off 4473) as you can, while you can! __________________ "A man's got to know his limitations." Clint Eastwood in Magnum Force

October 17, 2002, 09:23 PM	#121
Mike Catts Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: NM Posts: 10	For my first post here I guess I'll jump in and say that it looks like you have alot of good advice here. One point that I think that needs to be made though. There have been several posts talking about the 4473's "being sent in" The 4473 does not go anywhere but in your dealers files until that dealer goes out of business. If your dealer sent these in then they violated the law. Even ATF agents are not allowed to remove them from the stores location except by court order (search warrant) At last check it is still illegal for them to even make a copy of them, they may make notes off of them but that is it. Mike __________________ "The early bird MAY get the worm but the second mouse ALWAYS gets the cheese" Last edited by Mike Catts; October 17, 2002 at 10:02 PM.

October 18, 2002, 01:13 AM	#122
Shadowblade Junior Member Join Date: February 4, 2002 Posts: 1	It has been reported that they are making copies. Hang in there chaim... I'm sure you are one of hundreds, if not thousands being harrased in one way or another. Hopefully it will blow over soon.

October 18, 2002, 01:58 AM	#123
cor-man Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2002 Location: KY Posts: 137	"I think this MD shooting spree is going to affect us throughout this country." We need for this to affect us: in a positive way. We need to act on these shootings that make the news and show: a.) what is wrong with gun control laws b.) what outcomes could be different if all or at least more law-abiding citizens were packing. We need to quit cringing when shootings make the news; we need instead to speak up immediately in the aftermath; the NRA or some organization should be posting articles, ads, armed-citizen stories, etc. across the mainstream media; doing everything they can to get the message of TRUTH out to the public; the shooting themselves have gotten the public's attention, how that we have their attention let's use it for good. for example this sniper situation: a.) Maryland has stricter gun control laws than a lot of states; how the hell did that stop or prevent this sniper?! answer: it didn't! Lesson to be learned?: gun control will never have any affect on criminals! b.) I understand a ccw person once shot by the sniper might not be able to return fire and stop the creep, BUT: - they MIGHT be able to return fire, if sniper missed entirely or hit them only in the leg or arm. - a ccw person who is near the sniper and witnesses the event has a way to stop the sniper right there. - a ccw person who witnesses the event from a distance can get in their car and give-chase to the sniper, knowing that they can defend themself if the sniper stops their vehicle to shoot at them. THIS kind of message needs to be plastered out there every time we has some ahole shooting innocent victims making the news. This message and also more stories from "The Armed Citizen" and similar.