How do you react?

[David Armstrong]

When robbers come in waving guns in people's faces, it's ALREADY a gunfight.

No, it is not. Never ceases to amaze me the number of folks who fail to understand that simple fact.

[Hardtarget]

O.K I'm sitting there, observing...good witness. Waiting. No shooting, yet. Don't draw...they're just gonna' take the money and run.

THEN one robber decides to shoot...and I'm hit center mass!

Guess I was a bit behind the "curve"...that hurt...gonna' leave a scar!

I hope, to all reasonable, I'm never in the wrong place at the wrong time!

Mark

[David Armstrong]

THEN one robber decides to shoot...and I'm hit center mass!

The robber rarely shoots unless there is some reason to do so. Deciding to shoot at a robber ALWAYS gives him a reason to do so. It is a crap shoot either way, just the odds change.

[w_houle]

I couldn't tell you whether I would draw and shoot, or if I would just sit there wishing I had worn brown trousers.

[S832]

You do nothing, let them have the money - most robbers aren't looking to commit a murder and even if they were, you don't interfere until they start shooting.

[rampage841512]

Depends. If I thought I could get them both quickly without getting myself or someone else killed, I'd do it.

If I didn't think that, then I'd likely wait for them to come me, and act accordingly depending on what they did. Maybe try and remove the threat, maybe just hand over the wallet.

If at any point I thought not acting meant me or someone else would die, I'd act. If at any point I though acting would mean me or someone else would likely die, I wouldn't.

We can go back and forth in a thread like this all day. As much as I hate it, no one is going to know the best course of action to take until faced with a particular set of circumstances at a particular time.

Be prepared to for anything and everything, and if you can't manage that then get as close to it as you can.

[Hardtarget]

Two years ago, here in Nashville, there were several robberies in my very near neighbor hood. In three of the events the BG just opened fire after compliance by the clerks. Two were killed...also, one customer was shot while he lay on the floor. I reckon it just wasn't his day.

I'm NOT saying to start shooting as soon as it starts. I agree with what many have said. It depends...you gotta' be there, observe, hope you're reading it right as the robbery unfolds and TRY to stay ahead.

I hope I'm never caught in the middle of one of the robberies!


Mark.

[Stevie-Ray]

The sad thing all of the Waffle Houses around here have those signs posted "no weapons allowed on premises" so if you are armed you've broken the law.

Not here in Michigan. Trespassing, a civil infraction, if the greasy spoon wants to press charges. It's a shame some locales decide to allow the signs to extend the laws.

[JohnKSa]

Are these guys just asking for wallets/money or are they searching people? You could determine this by watching the proceedings--assuming that you're not the first one in "line".

If they're actually searching, what are they going to do when they find my CCW? No way to tell unless someone else is carrying too and is before you in "line".

Is everyone going to cooperate or is someone going to cause a ruckus? No way to know the answer to this.

If someone doesn't cooperate will the robbers feel constrained to handle it without seriously injuring or killing the non-cooperative person? No way to know the answer to this.

Are the robbers rational & reasonable? That is, will they be willing to leave with the loot if everyone cooperates or are they in it for the thrill too, like the two kids in Garland who robbed a business owner/employee and then killed them before leaving the scene in spite of the fact that neither victim offered resistance? No way to know this for certain but you might be able to hazard a guess based on their behavior. You can play the odds, but if you lose it will be a small comfort to die knowing that was not the most likely outcome.

This scenario is interesting to provoke thought, but is too open-ended for there to be a "right answer".

[hogdogs]

If a gun is in view I believe that the perp intends to use it. I personally do not feel a gun is for intimidation... thus I will act on such a threat with force if at all possible.
I won't kill a person over a few bucks in my pocket but I dang sure will shoot some one if they brandish a weapon in a violent manner in waffle house...
Brent

[Para Bellum]

Take an action that you think will miminize the risk of grievous bodily harm to those you care about who might be at risk to grievous bodily harm.

well spoken. No two situations are identical. It's always up to you to decide in split-second what to. A key parameter is how likely your action would turn the situation worse than it already is. If howeve, you have a clear chance to stop the threat without a high risk of increasing it, doing so is an option.

Don't ever worry because you didn't interfere. If nowbody got hurt, it you acted perfectly well. Your instincts and reason judged the situation well and everybody is still unharmed.

[David Armstrong]

I won't kill a person over a few bucks in my pocket but I dang sure will shoot some one if they brandish a weapon in a violent manner in waffle house...

And if your deciding to shoot some one who is just brandishing starts a shootout where there would not have been one otherwise, and innocent bystanders get killed....?? People keep missing out on this part of the equation. Given the fact that most robbers indicate that they use weapons primarily to insure cooperation (most folks would be amazed at the number of BGs guns that are not loaded,m do not work, are actually toys, etc.) that is the best way to plan a response. If they indicate that is not their purpose, then the gunfight might be appropriate.

[hogdogs]

with all due respect david a., I do not shoot to initiate a shootout... No wounding or wing shots. If I have an opportunity to draw and fire it will end the shooting risk. After a couple rounds at COM I will be advancing and making sure I have the full attention of the bad people and continuing to eliminate risk.
I also realize I must making the playing field in my favor. These punks of today rely on fear to have their way with society. They rarely expect to be rushed by a redneck with serious intentions to turn the tables on their terrorism. I will not tolerate intimidation, terrorism or bullying from anyone.
Brent

[KLRANGL]

hogdogs, i am in no way in doubt of your shooting ability, but no plan ever survives contact with the enemy... Just because you want it so doesnt mean it always goes down that way. There are many things that can go wrong, especially against numerous perps...

But I do agree that you should never tolerate their terrorism/bullying/intimidation (though not at the expense of others lives)... I figure if I find myself in a strong position to end the scenario with a high probability of success, I'd probably take it... Its just the last thing you want is some innocent to get hit in the cross fire and give the antis that much more ammunition...

[David Armstrong]

If I have an opportunity to draw and fire it will end the shooting risk

As mentioned above, it is amazing how many people have that idea that nothing will go wrong. You MIGHT end the shooting risk. You might INCREASE the shooting risk. A pretty wise man once told me to always plan that the person you are about to fight is at least as good as you are.

I will not tolerate intimidation, terrorism or bullying from anyone.

It is always interesting to see how many people feel their ego is worth getting killed over, or getting others killed.

[tplumeri]

the first thing that comes to mind is the diner scene in pulp fiction.
but the reality is just wait it out.
i dont carry any cash in my wallet, but to protect my personal info i deny having a wallet and hand over the cash in my pocket.
this happened to me twice growing up in NYC (not in a resturaunt, in the subway) and there wasnt any escalation to violence either time.

[Socrates]

I've been mugged, but never robbed. The guy hit me over the head with a Walther PPK/S. IF he had pointed the gun at me, I was going to die, or they were, and, I was going to use my hands. I was much younger then, and such options would happen much slower now. I considered that the key point. Once the barrel is pointed at me, I have to decide if it's a good day to die, and do what I do, or, give control of that over to scumbag.

I consider pointing a gun at someone sufficient reason to be in fear of my life. Given that, I am not going to start something I can't win. On the otherhand, maybe death wouldn't be so bad. I can't answer it for everyone. I am NOT going to give some bad guy with a gun control over my life and death if I can help it. I am NOT going to shoot someone over property, though oddly enough in Kali, if they are stealing your guns, you get a CCW permit, in the hope you will shoot them, rather then BG's get your guns.

That said, a friend, Sarge in SF, was faced off against a guy he'd known a long time. The BG had a 454, and, concealment/cover behind the engine block of a car. My friend was in the open, with a 41 mag. He didn't shoot, but, he knew the guy, and knew the situation.

I've watched felons go from reasonable to psycho in handcuffs. What are they capable of with a gun pointed at you?

I will say that if you start a gunfight, you better be ready to die that day. If you are, you probably will be faster, and not, but, that's just a theory...

[hogdogs]

I fail to see any relation between ego and refusing to be a victim of violent behavior...
It is actually a constitutional right. The pursuit of life liberty and happiness or some such nonsense. If everyone was to rabidly defend every gift in our constitution then this nation would be stronger and safer...

I also insist I would weigh my options in a situation as originally posted with a little finger nudging the side of self defense jist a tad.

I have been in a few altercations with levels of violence ranging from fists to guns with knives and blunt objects and clubs in the middle and never once ran, never lost my composure (but I might have lost my cool) and in each and every case I did not escalate the situation with forward approach. Most times the aggressor panicked and tried to run, other times it threw them off guard and into defensive posture which they were unable to execute with the same bravado of their initial attack.
One thing I know is I have a severe dislike for pain and the sure way to reduce the influx of pain is to be in close to the aggressor dealing out my own abuse.
Brent

[JohnKSa]

And if your deciding to shoot some one who is just brandishing starts a shootout where there would not have been one otherwise...

How in the world could one know ahead of time whether there was going to be a shootout or not?

I agree 100% that IF a person could know that there would be no shootout if he decided to do nothing that doing nothing would be the right choice. However, a person with that kind of supernatural ability to predict the future could put it to better use by making sure that no one was at the robbery location except for police officers when the robbers showed up.

As mentioned above, it is amazing how many people have that idea that nothing will go wrong.

Oddly enough, that's exactly what I was thinking while I read your post.

You seem to have the idea that if no one offers resistance that nothing will go wrong. Sometimes that's true, sometimes it's not and there's simply no way to know which way it will play out until it's over.

If you're going to play the odds, the statistics say that resisting violent crime with a firearm offers a better chance of remaining uninjured than simply cooperating.

[JKHolman]

Years ago, I made up my mind to resist being robbed even over the miserable amount of a few dollars. I no longer subscribe to that foolish notion, and am glad not to have tested it. I did have to intervene over an attempted rape - my appearance being enough to scare off the perpetrator. Looking back, I was not psychologically prepared to go at it, so I was lucky on that one [as was the victim]. As mentioned, no one knows how these things will develope, and you have to decide for yourself what action to take, even if that action is passive. I am of the opinion that the action taken by the person involved is the right one because only he is the one in a position to do anything; the rest of us are safely in our homes oblivious to what is going on until we read about it in the papers the next day. Socrates, the fact that you were weighing your options as best you could in such a crisis (as opposed to a situation) tells me you were on the right track. You are doing the best you can with not much to work with (pardon the dangling preposition), and you have very little time to decide. You did better than I would.

- JKHolman

[zippy13]

Interesting thread, more questions than answers. Not having a CCW, I don't know the training prerequisites. Is a situation like this covered in typical CCW training? If yes, is it the same from state to state? Might not armed intervention get you a hero's medal, or an indictment depending on the jurisdiction? I wondered if I was on the same channel as other posters...

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

Sit there calmly and quietly, let the BGs finish their business, then finish your waffles and wait for the police to come. Then give the police what information you can. No sense in turning a robbery into a gunfight without some compelling reasons, IMO.

Sounds reasonable, but there's no way I'm going to be able to stay calm w/ BGs waving guns around.

Originally Posted by Ohio Rusty

I carry a fake wallet just for that purpose.

I thought this was a great idea. But, what if the robbers take a longer look and aren't fooled? Aren't you now the focus of their discontent?

Originally Posted by Tuckahoe

A waffle house is an early morning/late night scene for all kinds of people and a likely scene for trouble. I simply avoid them.

A wise decision; but, aren't you're just reducing your possible problems? Any place can be robbed while you're there.

Originally Posted by w_houle

I couldn't tell you whether I would draw and shoot, or if I would just sit there wishing I had worn brown trousers.

A plausible reaction.

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

Are the robbers rational & reasonable?

I think this is wishful thinking. IMHO, by deciding to commit an armed robbery demonstrates they are neither rational nor reasonable.

Originally Posted by Scorates

I've been mugged, but never robbed.

Am I missing something, here -- isn't mugging a type of robbery?

Originally Posted by hotdogs

I fail to see any relation between ego and refusing to be a victim of violent behavior...

I think the "ego relationship" isn't in how one would react, but in how one describes his anticipated reaction to others.

Originally Posted by JKHolman

Years ago, I made up my mind to resist being robbed even over the miserable amount of a few dollars. I no longer subscribe to that foolish notion, and am glad not to have tested it.

+1 for JK

[Socrates]

Thank you Mr. Holman.
I started training in martial arts in about 1977, when surfing. I was always getting confronted by some sort of idiot. I remember one guy trying to pick on Mike Crouteau, a shaper that was about 6'5" and 275 pounds, about 90% of it muscle. I figured if some idiot who weighed 150 pounds would try and pick a fight with him, they would fight with me.
This was further reinforced when I watched a punk at Pleasure Point take off in front of former WWF World Wrestling Champion Don Morrocco, and then turn around and verbally abuse him. Edicate is the guy behind is the better surfer, and, it was true in this case. Mr. Morrocco was well over 6'4" and 330-340. He threw a stage punch at the guy, about 1/4" from his nose, and, the guy peeed his pants, and started yelling for help. When I stopped laughing, I realized I'd made the right choice in studying martial arts. The guys name was Troy and he maybe weighed 150 pounds, soaking wet.

My skills later saved my butt in Hawaii about 4 times, and, the issue posted above occured in a bowling Alley, Mel's, in Alemeda, in 1994-5. Three guys picked on me, because they though I was friends with the jerk that ran the bowling alley. I was in a bathroom, still in training, and, about 175 pounds. They all were over 230-240, and, I figured I actually had an advantage, since they didn't know who I was, and, because of my training, I reacted differently then they expected. As hogdogs has pointed out, in a confined space, when you are attacked at close range, by changing heights, you can strike very hard, and, be a very difficult target, and, anything you hit is going to be bad guy. I remember thinking of all the training I did, and, thinking this might be a bit of fun.
I was worried about the guy behind me having a gun, but, they all seemed to differ to one guy, since he had the gun. When he pulled it, all the rules changed.

Keep in mind, the only way you are going to know someones' intentions is by their actions, and, when most bad guys point a gun at you, the possibility of being shot is much better then the above dreamers would like to think. Police, with vests, cover and tactics are a more difficult target then the average person, and, their perspective is pretty much worthless for a civilian. Their perspective is altered by the many times, thanks to uniform, vest, gun, and backup, they may have survived having guns pointed at them.

One thing I have learned is that fear slows you down. I've spent many years training, and, this comes through loud and clear. To free your body and mind, you have to be willing to pay the ultimate price.

I face kids in the school I teach in now that are gangbangers, and, some are very large. We do not have metal detectors, and, one of these days, I'm afraid I'm going to find myself trying to defend, or break up a fight with deadly force involved. I have a vest, but, it's not suitable for daily wear. I can't get a CCW in my city, or, really haven't tried.

Maybe it's time...

[pax]

"Always cooperate" is a bad plan: http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2...ompliance.html

pax

[Wayfarin'Stranger]

Sorry if this offends anyone, but this is just my take on it.

All the guys that have the attitude of "I'm not going to defend a few dollars...." make me think you guys are pretty big pushovers, and easy targets. From what you guys have stated so far, if I was a robber, I'd rob you of everything you had once a week! My point of view is that it doesn't come down to whether someone is trying to rob me of $10.00 or $1000.00, it's still mine and no one else has the right to take it from me. (Although I let the government do it every two weeks )

There's no way I'm going to tolerate someone threatening me with deadly force (OP said they were waving guns and that equals deadly force in North Dakota), and just sit there and wait to see if they are going to shoot me or someone else. Let me make my position clear to answer the OP's question, when the guns come out, then they have initiated a gun battle, and I will fight back. There is absolutely no LEO in this country, that is not going to pull his weapon when an individual brandishes a gun anywhere in his/her general direction, and I don't think anything different should be expected of us.




I believe those of us that have obtained concealed weapons permits do so for the simple fact of having the ability to gain the upper-hand, and not be completely defensless against armed aggressors.

[David Armstrong]

I fail to see any relation between ego and refusing to be a victim of violent behavior...

There is none, AFAIK. The issue is when your choice to refuse to become a victim is based on your ego.

It is actually a constitutional right.

Just because one can do something doesn't mean that one should do something.