America - Best days behind her?

[bk40]

Has America already seen its best of times? If you think so - when did the USA peak and what specific events do you attribute to its decline.

Does America still have better and brighter days ahead of her? Your thoughts and events that lead you to believe this wanted.

I guess my wording gives my opinions away - but I would like to know what others think.

-bk40

[cornered rat]

In some ways, our good times have gone. In other, and many more ways than before, we are doing better than before. I am not an optimist at heart, for now...but my mind keeps pointing out that things have changed for the better in several ways.

Not the least of them, the ability of you and I to communicate and spout off on uncontrolled channels...compare that to FDR's days when the US would get its news from fewer and less diverse sources.

I am also encouraged by the fresh blood we have coming from elsewhere. Another, if minor, plus is that people are living longer...it now takes more time for the generation capable of comparing now and then to die off...a good thing.

Lastly, this forum and its members have done a lot to improve my outlook. Perhaps Sgt. York was more capable with a rifle, but my squad mates know what they are fighting for, not just the mechanics...

[This message has been edited by cornered rat (edited April 01, 1999).]

[shortcut]

Folks,

I mean no disprespect to anyone - and I may be going off an a tangent - but references to "America" could as well point to Canada, Mexico, Latin, Central or South America as they do to the United States of America.

(bk40 just happened to give me a chance to air my pet peeve...)

"America" is a generic term, referring to most of the hemispheric land mass recorded by Amerigo Vespucci (if I can trust my memory and public school education!)

The United States of America should be considered a distinct entity separate from all the other Americas. We have no right to usurp the term "America" for the US only.

The correct nomenclature is "The United States of America".

The distinction lies in that the power of the US derives only from the union of it's states, and with the state's permissions.

Referring to the USA as "America" not only rips off all other nations of their place in our hemisphere; but attributes much more power to the US than they need to have; either over the Union or over the hemisphere and globe.

[Destructo6]

I don't know if I was born 50 years too late, but I believe that the WWII era and shortly thereafter was the US peak.
In my mind, much of the decline has been due to some of the things that occurred in the 2 decades after. The, "life is rosy and the US is grand," period of the 50's that was rightly earned by the vets and America in general seemed to be rebelled against by their baby boomer children. You can often see this show through in the Hollywood (hollyweird) movies that are set in the 50's. In these movies, the people are depicted as naïve, goody-goody, and plain stupid; hardly the same people who struggled through 4 years of war less than a decade previously.
Those men desired and deserved the good life and it disgusts me that many of their children find that desire despicable. That desire was somewhat expressed in the movie, "To Hell and Back," where one character says, "After the war, I'm going to have about 6 kids and when they big enough, I'm going to line them up and tell them what it was like here, in Italy. If they don't cry, I'll beat them."
Many people these days are complacent. They desire a quick fix to every problem, both real and imagined. The "fixer" is too often seen as the government in one form or another using "free" funds. They don't realize that those "free" funds are in fact their own, taken in the form of taxes and a small portion returned as a generous hand out.
Citizens don't realize that with every right they enjoy, they also must fulfill one or more responsibility. A responsibility to cast an educated vote goes along with the right to vote. As the accompanying responsibilities are ignored or neglected, rights will begin to disappear. Rights will probably continue to disappear until the citizens, once again, begin to appreciate the meaning of freedom.

[Ken Cook]

America's best days are yet to come. Things are bad now, but they're worse everywhere else.
We have our fair share of problems and things are going to get worse before they get better. They will get better though. I don't have any facts to back this up, but I MUST believe this. Otherwise, what's the point? If there's no hope, then I'll happily give up my guns and quit blowing my money on NRA dues and contributions.
We have not the luxury of despair. We have a debt to the Ameircans who come after us to fight for the freedoms that our Forefathers fought so hard to preserve.

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Your mind is your primary weapon.

[Byron Quick]

Will things get better or worse? I do not know. My crystal ball is cracked and hazy. I see trends that are encouraging and I see trends that are frightening.

Too many of our elected officials of whatever stripe-Republican, Democrat, conservative and liberal seem to believe that essential liberties should be abandoned for temporary safety. It is almost as if these people do not study our history, do not believe what they studied, do not care about our history or have another agenda.

Where are the heirs of Patrick Henry? They are certainly not well represented in our legislatures, in our courts, or in the executive branches of our state and federal governments.

[Tom B]

I agree with much of what Destructo6 says. Thru out history great nations have come,peaked, and gone. I think the U.S. is on the "downhill leg". Can that be turned around? Can our lost freedoms be regained? It has never been done before in the history of nations. It has been proven that people today are more interested in the economy than morals, ethics, or anything else. We have seen that in the past couple of years. It's the "me generation". I watched 3 major news networks last night with regard to the Balkins and here are my conclusions. They are talking and preparing us mentally to send troops into Kosovo. They are doing the same thing with the goverment by telling them that NATO is loosing. They know how Clinton is with public opinion and polls. Now today we have 3 captured NATO troops. Is this our next "Gulf of Tonkin lie?" I say again: Americans have short memories!

[cornered rat]

20/20 hindsight, anyone? I am sure that 1776 events were scary for the loyalists and many others. FOr one, splitting form the UK did have its down sides, however minor. For another, the patriots had taken to hunting the loyalists. Moreover, with no phone. telegraph or Internet, the news must have looked far less coherent or complete to any individual...

Perhaps the current events will make some sense in a while, though the same thought must have been a poor consolation to people in many countries in 1914 or 1937 or 1999.

I am going to be an optimist because the Seargant in my head says so
CR

[Coronach]

I think we all have to realise that right now we are the British Empire from 100 years ago. We are _the_ global power. This entails a lot of perks. This also means a lot of little people are looking to knock us off the horse.

Whats that great line? look after the molehills and the mountains will take care of themselves.

People note that maybe we don't WANT this power. We don't WANT to be globocop. There is a certain wisdom in this. We cannot spend all our time running around putting out fires...we should just stop.

Well, ask yourself this: who else would you rather have doing it? Because SOMEBODY will. Nature abhors a vaccuum. Sure, it might not be at the global level that we do...not at first. But as our power receeds from a region, some local nation (India, China, Iraq) will step up and flex muscle.

So we're left trying to balance the need to stay on top and be in charge with the need also to not squander strength and influence
on piddly little things.

How to do this? Diplomacy. get others to to stuff for us. Have allies help out. think ahead. defuse situations before they explode. STAY ON TOP OF THINGS....its always easier to remain on the horse than to try and climb back on.

Just remember...its not a issue of taking the bull by its horns, or not. The horns are already in hand. The bull is pissed. Deal with it. Letting go and wishing the situation was different sure is not gonna help.

To answer the question...best days behind us? I dunno. I was not alive for the post WWII heyday, but its hard to imagine us ever getting THAT level of influence and prosperity again. But still...better days than now ahead? Sure. Why not? Depends on how well we deal with our current position on the world stage.

Just my $0.02

Mike

[cornered rat]

Whatever happens
We have got
maxim guns
And they have not"
(Kipling)

Seems to me that the Brits had sqquandered themselves on having their way in every local conflict on the globe...and then ran out of ammunition.

Personally, I would prefer to define the perimiter as being closer to home than the rest of the world. OTOH, there's something to be said for getting into minor wars for the purpose of ordnance testing and personell training. I just don't care for the rethoric that's being used to excuse it.

Waaay too many parallels to Spain '36.

[Destructo6]

On the subject of Globocop; I think we need to discriminate in which conflicts we choose to involve ourselves.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the US is currently doomed to a "Death spiral" with no way out. I think we are now on a downward swing, hopefully at or near the bottom. Things will have to get pretty bad before those who are now blissfully ignorant will realize how far we've strayed from the original intent of this republic.

[Morgan]

The Real Mensch had a piece a week or so ago that may be relevent to subject. Go <a href="http://realmensch.com/articles4/genxswing.html">here</a> to read... Its about the baby boom generation's experiment with liberalism. Enjoy!

[bookkie]

I think the U.S. is currently in a valley. We are at a low in just about every aspect of our personal freedoms. Taxes have never been higher. Seems like every aspect of our lives is now controled. The best times for this country was between the 1870's and 1910. A period you don't hear to much about. When there is no news, it's because no news is good news.

As to the future? Well a few years back I was really worried about the future of this country. Sure we have technology, all the great little toys and that I believe is our salvation. See, up until a few years ago the only news that we the people got, was put out by just a few sources. The internet has changed all that. As more people come on-line, the exchange of ideas and truthful news is changing the minds and attidutes.

Several years back there were very few that I had talked with who believed as I do. Today, it is about one in five. Take this site for example, I may not always be right, but dammit most of you hold the same ideals as I do. Personal responsibility, freedom and all that goes with it.

Ever talk with someone who has been on the net versis someone who has not? This is a generality, but you will find that those who use the net are far more educated, more learned. Here you can not say anything without supporting evidence or your laughted off the site. Here the truth is revealed for all who will listen. There will always be those who close their minds to the truth, but the vast majority of the people don't.

Due to these reasons I believe that our best days are yet to come. The winds of freedom have changed. It is now just a matter of time until it turns into a hurricane. 10 years ago in order to debate the 2nd it took hours upon hours of research in the library. Today all of us our gathering our knowledge together. Shareing ideas, our research. Time, distance, sex, age, color etc. are no longer an obstical.

The new freedom fighters are here on the net. You, me and others are gathering for the fight. We'll fight in our courts, in the halls of congress and we will win. For our numbers are growing. Our resources and knowledge our growning. Not all of us have yet learned to put aside our petty difference s, but we will. Our leaders do not know yet what is happening. But take a look around.

Yes better days are ahead. It is up to us. We are only just starting with projects like FOUP. More will come and more will join in.

Richard

[Ed Brunner]

Being factual we are no longer the world power.And worse we are no longer the moral leader of the free world.We might think we still are both but we need to see ourselves as others see us.We are big,fat,dumb,ugly and rich. They have all figured how to pick our pocket and get the free lunch.
It started after WWII with well-meaning parents wanting their children to have it better and easier than they did.
In the 50's we lost our morality,in the 60's we lost our national pride,in the 70,s our educational system was gone,in the 80's our rights were gone and the 90's message of diversity and Hyphenated-Americanism totally and completely robbed us of a national identity.
Other than that its been pretty uneventful!
There is only one solution but I fear the frog has already been boiled.

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Better days to be,

Ed

[Spectre]

"...only stupid people are breeding,

The cretins cloning and feeding..."

"Flagpole Sitter"

I find it interesting that the more educated and successful people in America tend to have fewer children. The "dumbing" of America? At the risk of sounding heartless, (which I certainly am not) I see a lot of Darwin awards coming. I feel that there is a current generation of dependent, spoiled and tyrannical Americans. (Interesting, shortcut, that folks from the U.S. are termed Americans? ) I feel hard times coming, and these dependent folk are going to bear the brunt of it. Mob rule is the equivalent of rule by an unbridled child of six. We have bread and circuses, but will shortly pay the piper. I feel the firestorm already. The U.S. cannot continue down the road it is traveling much longer. The inflationary, confiscatory tax code, the aging of the worforce, and the inevitable backlash of all our wonderful technology are going to contribute to flash point soon.

[K80Geoff]

I agree we are on a downward trend but I believe that our best days are ahead. Sure things look bad and the wrong people are in control of the government and media ut this will not last forever. We will see some hard times and struggle a bit but things will improve. Very few really important things are gained without a struggle.

I blame all of the current troubles on my generation, the "baby boomers"who decided back in the sixties that we had to change everything. Perhaps this was due to our parents who continually bombarded us with how tough they had it and how bad the depression, WWII and etc was. My generation is in control now and is making its own mistakes. Perhaps we were given too much too soon as our parents ( or at least mine) continually remind us.

I do see in some of the youngsters in Gen X a trend towards rebelling against their parents. Many of the GenX ers have turned out as solid citizens and do not seem to have the change everyting attitude their parents had. A surprising number of them are patriotic and are solid citizens.

This country is still the shining beacon of the world, people risk their lives and everything they have to come here to work at low end jobs. How many are trying to get into europe, japan, russia etc. We still attract the brightest minds from around the world. Other countries copy us and may beat us in manufacturing but they do it with ideas born here, when was the last time the Japanese really invented anything important, can they compete with us in computers, they may build the boxes but the ideas came from the USA.

I believe the liberal leftist bent of our society will eventually destroy itself and the rest of us will be around to clean up and rebuild. The US has been through tougher times, the civil war and the depression and we came out stronger and better each time.

[cornered rat]

<h2>Personal Integrity</h2>
I have seen just how decent and intelligent my allies are, so I have hope for the future. JBTs and their allies tend to be devious but none too imaginative.

As a treat, I would like to share a story written by a good friend. He said to show it only to friends and you do quaify.

You will need Acrobat to read PDF.
http://ddb.com/RKBA/punk
"Cyberpunk" is a treatise on citizenship and personal responsibility, as far as I can tell. Don't mind the techo details in the beginning, it gets past the minor details of time and place very fast.

PS: Cameo by an 1891 Mosin-Nagant

------------------
Cornered "but cheery" Rat
http://ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20

[Coronach]

Very briefly:

On drawing the perimeter closer to home:

That is an illusion from the days when we were truly local, not global. Name one sizable region of the world that does not currently have one of the following:

1. An ally
2. a valued trade partner
3. developed resources
4. high potential for undeveloped resources
5. a choke point for trade

There are damned few.

I'm certainly not in favour of stupidly involving ourselves in every conflict that flares up. But you gotta think more than one move ahead in a chess match...

On integrity/Moral leadership:

AMEN. If you're rotten at the core, its all for naught.

On world Powers:

Well. No. I disagree. We're still _the_ world power. Are we as mighty as we were 10 years ago? No. Are our foes stronger? Yes. Could they knock us from the horse? Yes. but we're still on it...and the drawdown has likely ended.

Military spending is steady, looking to climb again. the economy is better here than elsewhere. Schools are not where they should be, but are better than they were. Not much of a lead...we squandered so much...but we're still in front.

Mike

[Art Eatman]

Materially, we're generally on the uphill side, not peaked yet--hours of labor for items purchased generally at record lows. Culturally, I think we're in a bit of a valley. Dunno if we've bottomed or not...

Go to amazon.com and check out a book called "The Fourth Turning". The trade paperback is around $11; check your library. It doesn't give answers, but it damned sure gives some perspective and lets you make an intelligent guess about the next 10 or 20 years.

Sociologically/culturally I can see both improvements stemming from the '60s, and certain declines--based on my values and opinions deriving from the '30s-'40s...

I guess most generations have varied from "Hey, that's neat!" to "Those sorry #$%!@#!!!" Just this century they've talked about Hemingway and the Lost Generation of the '20s. F. Scott Fitzgerald and all that. And we had Prohibition, Al Capone, Machine Gun Kelly, Bonny & Clyde, et al...

In the late '50s, I was sort of a Better Homes & Gardens Beatnik, and later a Right Wing Hippie...At age 45 I became a dropout.

For all that the light at the end of the tunnel may well be an oncoming train, I figure that we're going through sort of a down period, and there'll be some positive changes during the next few tumultous years.

Never forget the old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times". And we do.

Regards from The Eternal Optimist, Art

[Grayfox]

I also believe our best days are yet to come. This country has seen some rough times. The depresion, WW I & II, Viet Nam and on and on. But every time Lady Liberty gets dumped on her rump, she jumps back up and gets right in your face.
I think the Clinton administration and Y2K will prove to be a turning point in our history because people now realize the true depth of immorality in our government and that technology is not the cure all they once believed. Like it or not these two things are forcing America to take a long hard look at itself. And we don't like what we see. Change will be slow and painful, but it is coming.
Mark my words, every candidate in the next election will be running on a truth and honesty platform. While the media watches like vultures to catch them in a lie. In the end we will be better for it.
Once you've hit bottom the only way to go is back up. While it may be a long and difficult climb, I have faith we will make it.

[Kit]

The United States of America went into decline in the spring of 1951 when President Truman fired General Douglas MacArthur.

[Paul B.]

Kit. I agree with you 100 %. Also on a comment K80Geoff made about the japanese not inventing anything. You're right. Our big corporations invent, and patent all kinds of stuff. BUT! if they cannot make an instant obscene profit on it, they don't bother, sell the patent tp the japanese to work with, and they(the japs) reap the profits, because thay are willing to put the time and effort into whatever the idea was. Gosh, I hope that made sense.

[Prichard]

Didn't America have her best days prior to such things as the Income Tax, the National Firearms Act (1934?), and FDR's communist social welfare programs?

[Art Eatman]

Kit: While I believe that MacArthur was strategically and tactically correct in his dispute with President Truman, Mac still disobeyed one of the fundamental tenets of our system: The Military is subservient to the Civilian leadership. "Soldier, shut up and soldier!"

Prichard: We also had the War of Yankee Agression, typhoid, Jim Crow laws, the KKK as a political power, WW I (The War To End All Wars) and the Great Depression...

And for all that I agree with you about the problems resulting from the items you mention, I suggest you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater: 1) Until the tax rates got so high, and the Democrats instituted "Withholding", the income tax was a logical way to fund those government services which the population at large was coming to believe were logical. 2) FDR's programs included Social Security, which started out as purely an old-age assistance program--and as a Trust Fund, originally, I believe. In hindsight, there was NO justification for the NFA of '34...Panic in my birth-year, I guess. Sorry I caused so much fear!!!

In other words, a lot of today's misery stems from good ideas which have been abused by the Left...If a few drops of Vanilla Extract are good, a tablespoon oughta taste great! (DON'T try it!)...

Regards, Art

[Spectre]

Perhaps I was not clear in my prior post. I believe America (oops, did I mean USA? ) can emerge, tempered, from the fires of conflict I feel coming.