.357 lever vs .223 semiauto for defense?

[Ballenxj]

What do you guys consider max useable range for the .357 lever gun? 100 yards?
Sorry, I know this thread is real old, but is also intriguing.

[MarkCO]

I have shot my .357 lever onto pie plates out to 150. The .223 out to 600.

It is an interesting and old thread.

Several have made a case for the .357 lever gun and a few for the AR platform. Lets tear into it.

Ammo cost: Factory plinkers in .38 special about .40/round. Factory plinkers in .223, about .50/rounds. 1000 reloads, about .13/round for .38 spl and .15/round for .223. SD ammo, about $1 for both.

Energy: 850 ft'lbs for the .357 Mag, 1250 ft'lbs for the .223

Pieces of separated 1/2" drywall penetrated for the same 2 loads: 9 pieces for the .357 mag, 5 for the .223.

Time to fire 15 rounds: 29 seconds for the lever gun, 2.8 seconds for the AR.

My opinion...

The modern AR-15, in decent trim can be bought for about $650, adjusted to fit almost any person of even small stature and deliver 50% more on target energy with less recoil than the .357 lever gun. Is there a reason LE does not carry .357 mag levers, yes, and for the most part, it is the same reason that more and more women are choosing the AR-15 platform. It is the most ergonomic, adaptable, capable platform available.

[Andy Griffith]

If you can't hit something with a 16" levergun, a semi-auto with more rounds won't help a bit.

If you ever plan on travelling with it to other states that now regulate AR-style rifles, a lever gun would be the ticket here too.

If you are in a situation that you need more than 8 to 11 rounds out of a lever carbine, in all reality, you are in serious trouble, as the Iranian government is attacking.

Just whatever you get, do some training with it. Know how to use it, clear jams under stress, etc. Yes, a lever gun can jam- due to user error.

I still vote for the lever. I know of one sheriffs deparment that issues .45-70 lever rifles in all cars. They were using Marlins, but they recently bought some of the new stainless Rossi rifles. I believe for "animal control" mostly. Although I'm certain that they'd get the job done.

If a feller wanted a MSR, there is no need to get an M4 profile barrel- it's too heavy to tote, and most of us aren't going to shoot full auto or mount a launcher- get a lightweight barrel, like a LT6720 Colt, and then don't hang half a ton of junk on it.

[Ballenxj]

Thanks for your input Mark. I have been bitten by the nostalgia factor of the lever gun, and think it might make a nice companion for either of my revolves in the same caliber.
While I'm at it, I found this video interesting.
http://youtu.be/MTC_C4DeNpU

[RodTheWrench]

I own both types and I say a .357 lever gun like my 94 Trapper is easy to swing, easy to operate(had the action smoothed by a gunsmith - slick!) and packs a helluva punch! At the ranges the OP suggests I'd take the lever any time. I saw at my LGS recently that someone is making a black-on-black lever .357 these days with a rail for a red-dot. About as tactical as you can get with one of those.

[skizzums]

http://www.grizzlycustom.com/custom_..._tactical.html

heres the mountain ninja dream gun, you know you kinda want it

i do kinda dig the laser in the magazine

[zxcvbob]

I saw at my LGS recently that someone is making a black-on-black lever .357 these days with a rail for a red-dot. About as tactical as you can get with one of those.

I went the other direction -- when I finally bought a .223, I got a Ruger Ranch Rifle "GB" 581 with an upgrade walnut stock. I wasn't even looking for a rifle, but I saw this one and it spoke to me With a short mag in place, it doesn't really look "tactical" at all... unless you notice the flash suppressor. It starts looking a bit evil with the 30-round mag though, LOL

[bamaranger]

I'm a bit partial to the .357 lever, but have a soft spot for the Mini family as well. Cost wise, if you're not a loader, bulk .223 ammo may be cheaper, and more common.

All that aside, I think a handy carbine in either flavor, beats a handgun for ease of shooting in all but certain special circumstances. Similarly most of us shoot long guns better than handguns. And the 12 ga is too much gun for some folks, a kicker and a complicated manual of arms for pumps.

You can't slip a Mini in your coat pocket for a walk to the mail box, true enough. But a snub is not much past 30 feet or so either. Meaning, few can shoot them well past close contact range.

[Art Eatman]

I've gone almost eighty years without any need for home defense. So, I'd go for the lever gun in this situation. Far more useful in the sense of self-satisfaction in use.

Granted, I'm not limited in any way as to a selection for home defense. It's an advantage of having been around the world of guns for a long time.

[MarkCO]

I guess it comes down to common sense...

Why do you have insurance, carry a gun, wear a helmet, wear a seatbelt, lock your door, wear eye protection at the range?

These are all "Just in case something bad happens" types of preparation. If you have a choice to have a tool that can deliver more energy on target faster, to say "that much protection" is not needed is, well, shortsighted. If you knew what was going to happen, you would just not show up there.

I am not as "old" as some of you, but I went my first 44 years never having been robbed or stolen from. In the last 2 years, I have had a vehicle broken into, my vacuum breaker for my sprinklers torn off the side of my house in the middle of the night, had someone try to run me off the road and had 2 credit cards numbers stolen due to hacks. I also intervened to prevent a 26 year old man from literally killing his 19 year old girlfriend.

Times change, tools and those concerned with defense should be able to adapt and change as well.

[mehavey]

I have both.
What MarkCO said above +1

If I'm going to pick up a long gun in a defensive situation,
it's going to be the M4 -- hands down.

[WilliamDahl]

I have both an AR-15 and a levergun (Marlin in .45-70). For those who claim that the AR-15 in .223 penetrates too much for home defense, all I can say is that they haven't seen what 405 gr of .45-70 can do. The main advantage that I see with using a levergun though is that it can easily be loaded to very light loads for pests (armadillos, 'possums, squirrels, cats, etc). If you load an AR-15 that light, it will not cycle the action. Now, if there was a way to lock the bolt on the AR-15 so that you could basically make it into a single shot while also being able to fire with an unlocked bolt, then it might give a bit more advantage to the AR-15. I suspect that you could accomplish that with an on/off type valve on the gas tube.

[skizzums]

i vote for the PLR16 kel-tec(if you can find one), its affordable, short barreled 223, so itll be easily maneuvered in the house, and still keeps a decent velocity for the round, unlike the ar pistols, its eeps it around 2600fps
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/plr-16/pistol/
a 223 krink pistol is another reasonably priced option, but i am unsure of its velocities

also look draco type pistols in 762x39, 8inch barrel puts out 1800fps with a 122gr bullet, plus they are CHEAP and reliable
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/69679

i love lever action rifles, i am buying one this weeend, but i want a longer barrel to get some good power out of my 357s, but for my house which has a small hallway leading from bedroom to 3 diffeerent points of entry, i just dont have the room to swing around a gun with an 18inch barrel

this is the view from my bedroom, the door on the right is the basement, which totally bloccks my door when opened, around the corner on the right is the front door, and where the cats tail is, is the kitchen with a door to the deck
with a long barrled weapon, i would have to expose my self to pretty much every door in the house to get around one of those corners
so i guess it just depends on your living situation, if my room was upstairs, i wouldnt mind the length, but i feel better with a shorter firearm

[Deja vu]

ID take the 357 magnum carbine but I am Bias. I think the 223 semi auto would do very well in that situation

For the load I use with my Marlin for hunting I load a 158 grain bullet at 2070 FPS. While it is certainly is a hot load for a 357 there are hotter out there. If you are in to stats here is the #s

16.5 inch barrel
158 grain bullet
2070 FPS
358 caliber
Energy 1503 Foot LBS
Momentum 46
TKO 16

It works well on deer I have used it for most of my deer harvest (mule deer here in Idaho) Out to 75 yards shots are easy they get substantially harder at ranges past 100 yards. I would not shoot a deer at much farther than 100 yards with this rifle. The 357 rifle is quieter than a 223 and much quieter than a 357 magnum pistol. Id say the recoil is about the same. Both are very light recoiling.

People that say energy wise the 357 magnum carbine can not compete with a 223 are wrong. At the effective ranges of the carbine id say that the 357 magnum out does the 223. I think you would have a hard time arguing self defence at ranges farther than 100 yards.

Now all that said the 223 carries much more ammo that by its self is a big deal. A normal AR15 mag holds 30 rounds most lever action 357 magnums hold between 7 and 12 depending on the length of the tube.

[MarkCO]

Now, if there was a way to lock the bolt on the AR-15 so that you could basically make it into a single shot while also being able to fire with an unlocked bolt, then it might give a bit more advantage to the AR-15. I suspect that you could accomplish that with an on/off type valve on the gas tube.

There are gas blocks, shut-off valves on the market that do just that. I shoot 55 grain FMJS at 1000 fps suppressed in "manual mode". A side charger does make this an easier task.

[CCCLVII]

16.5 inch barrel
158 grain bullet
2070 FPS
358 caliber
Energy 1503 Foot LBS
Momentum 46
TKO 16

I bet there are people on this forum that reload the 223 that get that much energy out of them.

In my mind there is no doubt about the 223. 30 rounds vs 10 rounds. Faster follow up shots. Less sheet rock penetration (with the right bullets though I bet a hot loaded 110 grain 357 bullet would explode on sheet rock and not penetrate much)

I love the 357 magnum I feel it is one of the most versatile rounds. It is a real do anything round. But if I was in a situation where I had to protect my home I would grab the 223 AR before the 357 magnum lever gun. Now if we are talking about hunting game I think it would be the other way around. I feel both will work for either job but the OP asked what we thought was best.

[WilliamDahl]

There's also the issue in a home invasion situation with respect to how many assailants you might be needing to address at one time and how fast you can get off multiple shots. In such a situation, an AR15 is going to prevail. An M4 type AR15 makes for a fairly compact weapon. One might even argue that an AR15 pistol would also be acceptable in a home defense situation where you might be just pointing and shooting instead of aiming through the sights. Of course, a SBR would provide even more flexibility than the AR pistol, but there is that whole (unconstitutional) tax stamp ATF excrement that you have to deal with.

[MarkCO]

Of course, a SBR would provide even more flexibility than the AR pistol, but there is that whole (unconstitutional) tax stamp ATF excrement that you have to deal with.

Problem solved: http://www.sigsauer.com/SigStore/sb1...brace-552.aspx

Have one on a .300 BO pistol. Works and functions just like a SBR as long as you don't try to strap it to your arm.

[valleyforge.1777]

I love my 357 lever rifles, 16 and 20 inch versions. Great rifles.

For self-defense, I have a Sig PM400 AR pistol (11 1/2 inch barrel) with the arm-brace thing that works very nicely as something to put up to your shoulder when firing the gun. I can't imagine why anyone who has actually held a PM 400 to their shoulder and fired it would ever choose a lever rifle over the AR pistol for real self defense. For theory, and for BS'ing on the Internet, well, we all love lever rifles. But if it is actually my family and my house that needs defending, I would never look back afterwards and say, "I regret having that AR pistol when I could have gotten by with a lever rifle instead..."

Come on, if you really wind up needing the firearm, do you really want to manually lever each shot into the chamber and run out of ammo after 10-12 shots when you could have something like the AR pistol with a 30 round magazine? Does anyone go into a fight for their lives saying, "I want less ammo capacity and I want a system more dependent on my own ability to carry out motor functions with my hands under extreme life threatening stress?" Be serious.

[WilliamDahl]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

Problem solved: http://www.sigsauer.com/SigStore/sb1...brace-552.aspx

Have one on a .300 BO pistol. Works and functions just like a SBR as long as you don't try to strap it to your arm.

I saw one of those at a gun store once. My impression was that it would cause problems / be inflexible in a home defense situation. Seems like you would limit your firing positions quite a bit.

I've yet to build an AR pistol, but I don't really find that the 5.56 round produces much in the way of noticeable recoil either from my current AR or what I fired when in the military. I've been out quite a few decades, so maybe my memory is a bit faint. I have to wonder if you could just get by with the padded buffer tube being put to your shoulder for stabilization.

[SIGSHR]

Depends on your defense scenario. Raging mobs, hordes besieging your house or development, perhaps hostile forces, an AR-15 or other semiauto makes sense. Perhaps at most 4-5 thugs who think they've found an easy mark, a good lever action. Smooth action, easy to handle-you can top off the magazine as you go along, in my Marlin M1894C the .357 feels like a 38 Special out of an S&W N frame.

[skizzums]

not saying a nice lever action wont do the job 99% of the time, but do tell how it is sub-par to a SBR 223 in HD situations

i disagree that it depends on your defense scenario, which scenario(of 2 legged mammals) does the lever win? and why?

not a hater of levers BTW, i love em, but be realistic; cant see any HD scenario that the lever wins over 223/556 semi-auto

you can talk about plinking, reload costs and how the differences in {EVIL} looks to a jury, but strictly performance terms i cant see the lever gun being on top

[Water-Man]

I have a .357 levergun, mini-14 and AR.

I'd grab the mini-14 first for in-home defense.

[MarkCO]

WilliamDahl,

The foam pads on the buffer tubes really affect recoil control when shouldered. There is a point and it moves the sights around a good bit.

The SIG brace slips over the tube, and depending on the tube, can rotate ro even slip off. I used the ACE tube that has two threaded holes in the buffer tube plate. Put a sling on one side and a short piece of rail on the other so it can not rotate. Then one wrap of hockey stick friction tape on the tube. Solid.

I have literally run drills with SWAT officers using .223 SBRs against my "pistol" and there is really no benefit to the $200 stamp unless you want to go prone.

[WilliamDahl]

Originally Posted by SIGSHR

Depends on your defense scenario. Raging mobs, hordes besieging your house or development, perhaps hostile forces, an AR-15 or other semiauto makes sense. Perhaps at most 4-5 thugs who think they've found an easy mark, a good lever action. Smooth action, easy to handle-you can top off the magazine as you go along, in my Marlin M1894C the .357 feels like a 38 Special out of an S&W N frame.

You forgot "jackbooted government thugs beating down your door because they don't like your religion and want to manufacture an incident so that they can pass an unconstitutional gun law".