S&W "M" Frame ??

RWK · August 19, 2000, 10:46 AM

This is a “curiosity question” for our S&W experts. What ever happened to the Smith “M” frame? We all are familiar with the J, K, L and N frames, but the “M” frame is missing. Could this be due to potential confusion with “military”, as in the Smith model 10 M&P?

Thanks.

**Mike Irwin** · August 19, 2000, 12:26 PM

Oh no, the M frame is very much a reality. And VERY sought after by collectors.

The M-frame .22 Hand Ejector LadySmith was introduced in 1902 as a 7-shot revolver as a scaled down version of the Military & Police.

Within a couple of years it was modified to make it easier to manufacture. This lead to the traditional S&W thumb latch used to unlock the cylinder being dropped in favor of a locking stud and knob that worked on the end of the ejector rod. The reason for this change was that it was too expensive and too difficult to assemble the small parts in the locking mechanism.

There was also a third model, which didn't really differ from the Second model in any significant way.

All three models are HIGHLY sought after by collectors, especially the few that have adjustable target sights. A new in box with adustable sights and a 6" barrel can, under the right circumstances, crack 5 figures.

The legend goes, but it probably isn't true, that DB Wesson ordered production stopped when he found out that these small guns were favored by prostitutes.

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

RWK · August 19, 2000, 01:01 PM

Mike,

Thanks. I appreciate all you contribute, particularly re S&W revolvers.

Warm regards.

C.R.Sam · August 19, 2000, 01:54 PM

And to keep the alphabet run going; let us not forget the lovely little I frames.

Sam

Hard Ball · August 19, 2000, 03:40 PM

Mike is right. I have a Ladysmith but the grips are so small it would be very difficult for ne to shoot it, but the 7 shot cylinder which is a throwback to the 1850s Model One is very interesting.
Another very interesting piece of nomenclature is the >32 rimfire S&W Model 1 and 1/2.

**Mike Irwin** · August 19, 2000, 05:40 PM

S&W started a completely different type of frame nomenclature when the brought out the Hand Ejectors in the 1890s.

Because there was a considerable overlap in production of the breaktops and the Hand Ejectors (about 25 years), there needed to be an easily understandable way of differentiating between them.

Since the breaktop frame sizes were numbered, letters were the logical way to go.

Most people didn't even know about the lettering system for frames until AFTER World War II, when S&W went from model names to model numbers for the Hand Ejectors.

The old breaktops, however, were readily identifiable, as the model name and frame number were often used in company literature, i.e. S&W American No. 3, which was the large frame (No. 3), single action chambered for the .44 S&W cartridge. After the development of the .44 Russian cartridge, which was a lengthened version of the .44 S&W, that cartridge came to be known as the .44 American. From those two cartridges came the .44 Special in 1907 and the .44 Magnum in the 1950s.

Hardball, if you do want to shoot your LadySmith, do NOT use modern ammo! These guns will simply not take a diet of modern .22 Long or Long Rifle ammo.

Your best bet is to try to find, probably from Old Western Scrounger or Dixie, some of the ammo that has been made specifically for use in these older guns.

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

**Mike Irwin** · August 19, 2000, 05:41 PM

Thank you, RWK. I appreciate the compliment.

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

loknload · August 19, 2000, 10:13 PM

I just saw one of those old Lady Smiths advertised in the Gun List. It caught me by surprise I didn't think they made something like that that long ago. I believe if I remember correctly they were asking a pretty premium price for it to.

Happy Shooting

------------------
We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous

**Mike Irwin** · August 19, 2000, 11:33 PM

Loknload,

Do you remember how much they were asking? Did they say whether it was a first, second, or third model?

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

loknload · August 20, 2000, 02:24 AM

Mike, One is being offered at auction next weekend in Bedford New Hampshire. The second one was listed in a classified, First Model Ladysmith HR 65% flaking nickel $695. I saw the picture of the one for auction and got the one confused with something else for a premium price. Hope this helps

------------------
We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous

August 19, 2000, 10:46 AM	#1
RWK Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 1999 Location: Occupied Virginia Posts: 2,777	This is a “curiosity question” for our S&W experts. What ever happened to the Smith “M” frame? We all are familiar with the J, K, L and N frames, but the “M” frame is missing. Could this be due to potential confusion with “military”, as in the Smith model 10 M&P? Thanks.

August 19, 2000, 12:26 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Oh no, the M frame is very much a reality. And VERY sought after by collectors. The M-frame .22 Hand Ejector LadySmith was introduced in 1902 as a 7-shot revolver as a scaled down version of the Military & Police. Within a couple of years it was modified to make it easier to manufacture. This lead to the traditional S&W thumb latch used to unlock the cylinder being dropped in favor of a locking stud and knob that worked on the end of the ejector rod. The reason for this change was that it was too expensive and too difficult to assemble the small parts in the locking mechanism. There was also a third model, which didn't really differ from the Second model in any significant way. All three models are HIGHLY sought after by collectors, especially the few that have adjustable target sights. A new in box with adustable sights and a 6" barrel can, under the right circumstances, crack 5 figures. The legend goes, but it probably isn't true, that DB Wesson ordered production stopped when he found out that these small guns were favored by prostitutes. ------------------ Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag. Chances are he knows how to use it.

August 19, 2000, 01:01 PM	#3
RWK Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 1999 Location: Occupied Virginia Posts: 2,777	Mike, Thanks. I appreciate all you contribute, particularly re S&W revolvers. Warm regards.

August 19, 2000, 01:54 PM	#4
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	And to keep the alphabet run going; let us not forget the lovely little I frames. Sam

August 19, 2000, 03:40 PM	#5
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	Mike is right. I have a Ladysmith but the grips are so small it would be very difficult for ne to shoot it, but the 7 shot cylinder which is a throwback to the 1850s Model One is very interesting. Another very interesting piece of nomenclature is the >32 rimfire S&W Model 1 and 1/2.

August 19, 2000, 05:40 PM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	S&W started a completely different type of frame nomenclature when the brought out the Hand Ejectors in the 1890s. Because there was a considerable overlap in production of the breaktops and the Hand Ejectors (about 25 years), there needed to be an easily understandable way of differentiating between them. Since the breaktop frame sizes were numbered, letters were the logical way to go. Most people didn't even know about the lettering system for frames until AFTER World War II, when S&W went from model names to model numbers for the Hand Ejectors. The old breaktops, however, were readily identifiable, as the model name and frame number were often used in company literature, i.e. S&W American No. 3, which was the large frame (No. 3), single action chambered for the .44 S&W cartridge. After the development of the .44 Russian cartridge, which was a lengthened version of the .44 S&W, that cartridge came to be known as the .44 American. From those two cartridges came the .44 Special in 1907 and the .44 Magnum in the 1950s. Hardball, if you do want to shoot your LadySmith, do NOT use modern ammo! These guns will simply not take a diet of modern .22 Long or Long Rifle ammo. Your best bet is to try to find, probably from Old Western Scrounger or Dixie, some of the ammo that has been made specifically for use in these older guns. ------------------ Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag. Chances are he knows how to use it.

August 19, 2000, 05:41 PM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Thank you, RWK. I appreciate the compliment. ------------------ Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag. Chances are he knows how to use it.

August 19, 2000, 10:13 PM	#8
loknload Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 1999 Location: PA. USA Posts: 1,869	I just saw one of those old Lady Smiths advertised in the Gun List. It caught me by surprise I didn't think they made something like that that long ago. I believe if I remember correctly they were asking a pretty premium price for it to. Happy Shooting ------------------ We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge. Anonymous

August 19, 2000, 11:33 PM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Loknload, Do you remember how much they were asking? Did they say whether it was a first, second, or third model? ------------------ Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag. Chances are he knows how to use it.

August 20, 2000, 02:24 AM	#10
loknload Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 1999 Location: PA. USA Posts: 1,869	Mike, One is being offered at auction next weekend in Bedford New Hampshire. The second one was listed in a classified, First Model Ladysmith HR 65% flaking nickel $695. I saw the picture of the one for auction and got the one confused with something else for a premium price. Hope this helps ------------------ We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge. Anonymous