Correct Terminology - Page 4

B.L.E. · August 28, 2009, 10:20 PM

It bugs me when some people call any muzzleloading rifle a "musket".

Also it would be nice if we stopped calling smokeless or nitro powder "gunpowder" and also stopped calling gunpowder "black powder".

Vaseline, Q-tip, Band-aid, Scotch tape, and Jet-Ski are registered trademarks, not generic products.

Skan21 · August 28, 2009, 10:45 PM

Quote:

It bugs me when some people call any muzzleloading rifle a "musket".

You're safe from hearing that from me. The only thing I call a musket is the M16A2. I've always called it that. Whenever I see anyone with that particular type, I have to restrain myself from yelling "Fix bayonets!".

Brian Pfleuger · August 29, 2009, 08:52 AM

I shall have to make sure that I properly reference the Q-Tip brand cotton swabs from this day forward.

I think there might be a point that's just a wee bit over the top....

Correct terminology is one thing, completely refusing to acknowledge common vernacular is something entirely different.

The fact that every cotton swab is called a Q-Tip is called "success" by Unilever.

MLeake · August 29, 2009, 09:30 AM

I think what we're seeing in this thread is a trend where the people who are most concerned about correct terminology are those in career fields where exact wording counts.

OrionEngr for instance was a flight engineer, and it makes a whole lot of difference to him whether I say "reduce to 925" (reduce what?) or "reduce horsepower to 925" (Shaft Horse Power, 925x4engines would be an appropriate setting for endurance flight at lower gross weights) or "reduce TIT to 925." (925 deg C Turbine Inlet Temperature, used for extended engine life cruise power setting in our previous airframe; relatively high power).

An example given to us during training was of an aircraft that failed to execute an intended go-around, because when the pilot called for "Takeoff Power!" the flight engineer took off (IE pulled back) power, and the airplane hit the runway, hard. The more exact phrase, "Set takeoff power" would have clarified things. One result of this sort of interaction was a doctrine that the pilot would advance or retard the power levers to the ballpark he wanted, and the FE would then fine-tune; you'd be hard-pressed to find a community that has the FE do all the power lever movement.

On another note, a reputation for professionalism can be enhanced by use of proper terminology, or injured by the use of inexact terms.

So aviator types tend to be a bit anal about terminology.

Others that would share this trait would be medical or legal professionals. But you'd also find it in the trades. Work with a mechanic sometime, you'll notice he'll specify a box wrench, or an open-end wrench, etc. Same with carpenters and their tools.

So, a lot of professions effectively dictate the use of exact terminology.

Then again, some people are just born that way.

The trick is to not take it personally.

Brian Pfleuger · August 29, 2009, 09:50 AM

I don't disagree at all....

but I don't hear pilots saying "Where are the Q-Tip brand cotton swabs" or even just "Where are the cotton swabs" they say "Where are the Q-Tips" just like everybody else.

I hung around with professional pilots when I was training. In the plane they are exact and precise and demanding. On the ground eating lunch, they're people.

Cotton swabs are called Q-Tips by just about everybody....

There are times and places and careers wherein terminology is life and death. In those places it pays to be exacting.

In other places, in doesn't pay, and while there is always a place for accuracy in comunication, pushing it to the point where "Q-Tip" can not be a "generic" term for a cotton swab is a bit over the top.

MLeake · August 29, 2009, 10:09 AM

... I'm with you on this one.

In the cockpit, or at a watch desk, I'm very exact and very exacting. On the dojo mat, when learning or practicing techniques, I'm all about precision in word and movement.

When working with horses, or when in her pre-BSN courses, my significant other is the same way.

But at home, we're basically a pair of goofballs. "Casual" would be the polite description.

Cheers,

M

Evan Thomas · August 29, 2009, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peetzakilla

In other places, in doesn't pay, and while there is always a place for accuracy in comunication, pushing it to the point where "Q-Tip" can not be a "generic" term for a cotton swab is a bit over the top.

Language evolves. This drives some purists nuts, and has ever since people began putting dictionaries together.

One could probably make a case that "Q-Tip" as a term for cotton swab is a change in the direction of more precise terminology: "cotton swab" can also mean "cotton ball" -- one of those poofy things with no stick. So Q-Tip is a more specific term.

As to the opinions of the corporations owning the trademarks on the these terms, they aren't necessarily in favor of their generic use: I know that some years ago , Kimberly-Clark had at least one employee whose full-time job was hunting down and stopping the use of "Kleenex" as a generic term, at least in print. I have no reason to think this has changed.

Falcon5NZ · August 30, 2009, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimT

Quote:

When I am paper punching, it isn't a weapon it is pistol, rifle, revolver, firearm,.....

Whatever.

It's a gun. Guns are, at their core, weapons.

...And actually, if you are punching paper, it sounds like you are using a weapon - your fists, or some other weapon

A firearm is not always a weapon. A firearm is a tool that CAN be used as a weapon but, unless it is a military issued weapon it is a tool first and a weapon second. Also a gun to me means either a smooth bore firearm such as a shotgun or a large caliber weapons such as a howitzer or 16" gun on a battleship.

**Shane Tuttle** · August 30, 2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

A firearm is not always a weapon. A firearm is a tool that CAN be used as a weapon but, unless it is a military issued weapon it is a tool first and a weapon second.

Again, I go back to my original question. What's the primary reason of a firearm? You think a military personell uses it to dig a trench or to have on their hip for a conversation piece?

**Shane Tuttle** · August 30, 2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLeake

In the cockpit, or at a watch desk, I'm very exact and very exacting.

Speaking of exact (or political correctness), don't you mean flight deck?

Quote:

Originally Posted by peetzakilla

There are times and places and careers wherein terminology is life and death. In those places it pays to be exacting.
In other places, in doesn't pay, and while there is always a place for accuracy in comunication, pushing it to the point where "Q-Tip" can not be a "generic" term for a cotton swab is a bit over the top.

As Q-tip can be used in generic form here in parallel to clip can, it is still encouraged not to be used incorrectly. The philosophy regarding this is, in my opinion, I want TFL to be THE place to gather the best information possible. In order to do that, every piece of information must be correctly typed to the best of members' ability. I'm not expecting this place to be the bible of the gun world, but the best discussion board regarding quality of content. A person with little gun knowledge seeking reputable information will more than likely be oblivious to deciphering what we type and what we really mean (i.e. clip vs. magazine). This, alone, is reason enough to assure that we strive to achieve TFL's objective...

**Bud Helms** · August 30, 2009, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Speaking of exact (or political correctness), don't you mean flight deck?

Quote:

In the cockpit, or at a watch desk, ...

That doesn't read like a typo, i.e., "... at a watch desk, ..." as opposed to, "... on a flight deck, ..."

**Shane Tuttle** · August 30, 2009, 12:24 PM

I was referring to the political correctness in the military regarding the term "cockpit". Now, it's called a "flight deck".

**Bud Helms** · August 30, 2009, 12:34 PM

OH!

Now that's funny!

MLeake · August 30, 2009, 01:47 PM

... between "exact" and "PC", but Tuttle8 beat me to it.

However, at least in my community, the phrase that would have been both exact and PC would have been "flight station." We older guys still call it the cockpit, at least among our non-weenie peers.

Speaking of exact terminology, where I'm from, the "flight deck" would be the outside of the 04 level, IE four levels up from the hangar deck, which is equivalent to the main deck of other platforms...

Cheers,

M

hogdogs · August 30, 2009, 02:11 PM

As I said to tuttle via PM...
That cockpit issue (I hope TFL don't ban me for cussing) is messed up! I personally feel that anyone that can even imagine that as slander, slur, or innuendo is a very perverse mind and we all MUST keep that type away from our children!
I am quite the open minded fella and have had my fair share of making innuendo but never once had I heard the problem about the term...
Brent

Stevie-Ray · August 30, 2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Vaseline, Q-tip, Band-aid, Scotch tape, and Jet-Ski are registered trademarks, not generic products.

You're forgetting the most obvious; Kleenex!

I'm laughing so much my eyes are watering. Somebody get me a facial tissue.

Falcon5NZ · August 30, 2009, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuttle8

Again, I go back to my original question. What's the primary reason of a firearm? You think a military personell uses it to dig a trench or to have on their hip for a conversation piece?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ME

A firearm is not always a weapon. A firearm is a tool that CAN be used as a weapon but, unless it is a military issued weapon it is a tool first and a weapon second.

I agree. If a firearm is issued to a soldier it IS a weapon. If I got to a shop and buy one it is a tool.

And whoever decided we weren't allowed to use cockpit must have the mental age of a 10 year old. Because thats something I can see a 10 year old laughing at..."Haha, He said cockpit, haha"

**Shane Tuttle** · August 30, 2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

If I got to a shop and buy one it is a tool.

Um, OK. I gues I'll use my gun as a weapon and you can use yours to dig up weeds...

MLeake · August 30, 2009, 09:43 PM

Now, if you wanted to say it's only a dedicated "anti-personnel weapon" when issued to military personnel, I might agree with you.

However, some button men might disagree, if they were being honest about it.

Even among private, law-abiding citizens, unless one goes for the reach of "only intended for target practice," the firearm is designed to inflict penetrating or crushing damage at varying distances. It's a weapon. It may be that you want to penetrate only game animals, or even only paper targets, but you're using a weapon to do it.

Falcon5NZ · August 30, 2009, 10:05 PM

tool (plural tools)
A mechanical device intended to make a task easier.
Hand me that tool, would you?
Equipment used in a profession, e.g., tools of the trade.
These are the tools of the trade.

weapon (plural weapons)
an instrument of attack or defense in combat or hunting, e.g. a gun, missile, or sword
an instrument or other means of harming or exerting control over another

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I strongly beleive that a firearm is a tool. You can use it as a weapon but it is not automatically one.

**Shane Tuttle** · August 30, 2009, 10:44 PM

That's no problem. But I must ask you what reason you use your firearms.

Anything can be classified as a tool in generic terms. Shovel, wrench, car, boat, pen....

What you use your firearm may be classified as a "tool". But the primary reason a firearm is made is to be a weapon for the rest of society as I see it. You claim it as a tool first. What do you use your firearm first for?

Falcon5NZ · August 30, 2009, 10:51 PM

I primarily shoot rabbits and possum for pest control, ducks for food and population control (in season) and plinking. I guess the pest control thing is why I see them as tools rather than weapons.

Hardtarget · August 30, 2009, 10:55 PM

One thing I pointed out to my wife...the news always says the police "recovered" a weapon.

The police didn't lose that weapon...it wasn't stolen from them, and the owner knew exactly where it was sitting. The police confiscated the weapon but the news always reports it as "recovered". nit picky, huh.

Mark

Skan21 · August 31, 2009, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Anything can be classified as a tool in generic terms. Shovel, wrench, car, boat, pen....

Those things can also be considered weapons too. I've heard of people being charged with assault with a deadly weapon for hitting people with cars. Weapons issued to soldiers are often used for things other than their intended purpose. For instance, the Mossberg 500 shotgun I was issued is a firearm, but it was only used for breaching doors. So in that instance, it was a tool.

On the other hand, we were also issued the FN303, to serve as a weapon, and we used it as crowd control. It hurt like fury, and left a pretty large welt, but it was just a high speed paintball gun.

When I was in Iraq, we used to shoot warning shots at cars, with our rifles. I would say I shot my rifle 7 or 8 times a week at cars ONLY! So I think that firearms are both tool and firearm in equal parts. I really don't feel that they go all the way one way or the other.

Zilmo · August 31, 2009, 12:23 AM

Quote:

I primarily shoot rabbits and possum for pest control, ducks for food and population control (in season) and plinking. I guess the pest control thing is why I see them as tools rather than weapons.

I'm guessing the rabbits, possum, and ducks view it differently.

August 29, 2009, 08:52 AM	#78
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I shall have to make sure that I properly reference the Q-Tip brand cotton swabs from this day forward. I think there might be a point that's just a wee bit over the top.... Correct terminology is one thing, completely refusing to acknowledge common vernacular is something entirely different. The fact that every cotton swab is called a Q-Tip is called "success" by Unilever. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

August 29, 2009, 09:30 AM	#79
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	PK, I think what we're seeing in this thread is a trend where the people who are most concerned about correct terminology are those in career fields where exact wording counts. OrionEngr for instance was a flight engineer, and it makes a whole lot of difference to him whether I say "reduce to 925" (reduce what?) or "reduce horsepower to 925" (Shaft Horse Power, 925x4engines would be an appropriate setting for endurance flight at lower gross weights) or "reduce TIT to 925." (925 deg C Turbine Inlet Temperature, used for extended engine life cruise power setting in our previous airframe; relatively high power). An example given to us during training was of an aircraft that failed to execute an intended go-around, because when the pilot called for "Takeoff Power!" the flight engineer took off (IE pulled back) power, and the airplane hit the runway, hard. The more exact phrase, "Set takeoff power" would have clarified things. One result of this sort of interaction was a doctrine that the pilot would advance or retard the power levers to the ballpark he wanted, and the FE would then fine-tune; you'd be hard-pressed to find a community that has the FE do all the power lever movement. On another note, a reputation for professionalism can be enhanced by use of proper terminology, or injured by the use of inexact terms. So aviator types tend to be a bit anal about terminology. Others that would share this trait would be medical or legal professionals. But you'd also find it in the trades. Work with a mechanic sometime, you'll notice he'll specify a box wrench, or an open-end wrench, etc. Same with carpenters and their tools. So, a lot of professions effectively dictate the use of exact terminology. Then again, some people are just born that way. The trick is to not take it personally.

August 29, 2009, 09:50 AM	#80
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I don't disagree at all.... but I don't hear pilots saying "Where are the Q-Tip brand cotton swabs" or even just "Where are the cotton swabs" they say "Where are the Q-Tips" just like everybody else. I hung around with professional pilots when I was training. In the plane they are exact and precise and demanding. On the ground eating lunch, they're people. Cotton swabs are called Q-Tips by just about everybody.... There are times and places and careers wherein terminology is life and death. In those places it pays to be exacting. In other places, in doesn't pay, and while there is always a place for accuracy in comunication, pushing it to the point where "Q-Tip" can not be a "generic" term for a cotton swab is a bit over the top. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

August 29, 2009, 10:09 AM	#81
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	PK, once again... ... I'm with you on this one. In the cockpit, or at a watch desk, I'm very exact and very exacting. On the dojo mat, when learning or practicing techniques, I'm all about precision in word and movement. When working with horses, or when in her pre-BSN courses, my significant other is the same way. But at home, we're basically a pair of goofballs. "Casual" would be the polite description. Cheers, M

August 30, 2009, 12:24 PM	#87
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	I was referring to the political correctness in the military regarding the term "cockpit". Now, it's called a "flight deck". __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

August 28, 2009, 10:20 PM	#76
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	It bugs me when some people call any muzzleloading rifle a "musket". Also it would be nice if we stopped calling smokeless or nitro powder "gunpowder" and also stopped calling gunpowder "black powder". Vaseline, Q-tip, Band-aid, Scotch tape, and Jet-Ski are registered trademarks, not generic products.

August 30, 2009, 12:34 PM	#88
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	OH! Now that's funny!

August 30, 2009, 01:47 PM	#89
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	I was going to point out the difference... ... between "exact" and "PC", but Tuttle8 beat me to it. However, at least in my community, the phrase that would have been both exact and PC would have been "flight station." We older guys still call it the cockpit, at least among our non-weenie peers. Speaking of exact terminology, where I'm from, the "flight deck" would be the outside of the 04 level, IE four levels up from the hangar deck, which is equivalent to the main deck of other platforms... Cheers, M

August 30, 2009, 02:11 PM	#90
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	As I said to tuttle via PM... That cockpit issue (I hope TFL don't ban me for cussing) is messed up! I personally feel that anyone that can even imagine that as slander, slur, or innuendo is a very perverse mind and we all MUST keep that type away from our children! I am quite the open minded fella and have had my fair share of making innuendo but never once had I heard the problem about the term... Brent

August 30, 2009, 09:43 PM	#94
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	A weapon is a weapon. Now, if you wanted to say it's only a dedicated "anti-personnel weapon" when issued to military personnel, I might agree with you. However, some button men might disagree, if they were being honest about it. Even among private, law-abiding citizens, unless one goes for the reach of "only intended for target practice," the firearm is designed to inflict penetrating or crushing damage at varying distances. It's a weapon. It may be that you want to penetrate only game animals, or even only paper targets, but you're using a weapon to do it.

August 30, 2009, 10:05 PM	#95
Falcon5NZ Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Somewhere North of the Roaring 40's...Just Posts: 275	tool (plural tools) A mechanical device intended to make a task easier. Hand me that tool, would you? Equipment used in a profession, e.g., tools of the trade. These are the tools of the trade. weapon (plural weapons) an instrument of attack or defense in combat or hunting, e.g. a gun, missile, or sword an instrument or other means of harming or exerting control over another I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I strongly beleive that a firearm is a tool. You can use it as a weapon but it is not automatically one. __________________ It is New Zealand's role to send out its bright young men and women to help run the rest of the world. And they go, not hating the country of their birth, but loving it. From this loving base they make their mark on the world. Pro-1080 Poison and proud of it!!

August 30, 2009, 10:44 PM	#96
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	That's no problem. But I must ask you what reason you use your firearms. Anything can be classified as a tool in generic terms. Shovel, wrench, car, boat, pen.... What you use your firearm may be classified as a "tool". But the primary reason a firearm is made is to be a weapon for the rest of society as I see it. You claim it as a tool first. What do you use your firearm first for? __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

August 30, 2009, 10:51 PM	#97
Falcon5NZ Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Somewhere North of the Roaring 40's...Just Posts: 275	I primarily shoot rabbits and possum for pest control, ducks for food and population control (in season) and plinking. I guess the pest control thing is why I see them as tools rather than weapons. __________________ It is New Zealand's role to send out its bright young men and women to help run the rest of the world. And they go, not hating the country of their birth, but loving it. From this loving base they make their mark on the world. Pro-1080 Poison and proud of it!!

August 30, 2009, 10:55 PM	#98
Hardtarget Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2001 Location: Nashville, Tn. Posts: 683	One thing I pointed out to my wife...the news always says the police "recovered" a weapon. The police didn't lose that weapon...it wasn't stolen from them, and the owner knew exactly where it was sitting. The police confiscated the weapon but the news always reports it as "recovered". nit picky, huh. Mark __________________ ...even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while.