The inherrent superiority of the revolver - Page 4

Hal · January 8, 2006, 07:29 AM

The inherrent superiority of the revolver - -

Simple.

W/my Smith model 19 6" barrel. - If I can see it, I can hit it.

W/any semi auto - If I can see it, I can probably hit it.

THAT'S the superiority of the revolver.

juliet charley · January 8, 2006, 07:53 AM

Ditto (and I would add "much faster" after "If I can see it, I can hit it").

Para Bellum · January 8, 2006, 12:00 PM

Quote:

The inherrent superiority of the revolver - -

Simple.

W/my Smith model 19 6" barrel. - If I can see it, I can hit it.

W/any semi auto - If I can see it, I can probably hit it.

THAT'S the superiority of the revolver.

Not quite right as a general rule: Same ammplies eg to SIG 210, Glock 17L, Desert Eagle and several others.....

By the way a great self-defense necessity to be accurate with a handgun above 50m

Hal · January 8, 2006, 12:35 PM

Para,
Partly - but you're missing a huge part of what I'm saying.

Smith 6" model 19 - I'm 100% confident that in my hands I can hit anything I choose to (within range and reason of course).

W/any semi auto I'm not.

Quote:

By the way a great self-defense necessity to be accurate with a handgun above 50m

50 or 500?

juliet charley · January 8, 2006, 01:56 PM

Quote:

I don't know what you mean, but the best sights for fast defensive shooting I know are Steyr's and Glocks (white on black)

The sights (particularly the front post) on most revolvers are generally largely and much quicker to pick-up than the sights on most autoloaders. The color (white on black) has very little to do with it (and there are better color combination than white on black for sure).

Those small pieces of plastic Glock hangs on their autoloaders are long ways from being "the best sights for fast defensive shooting" (and in fact, are generally quickly replaced--if not from the factory soon after purchase). As for the Steyr, its sights are just a variation of the old "guttersnipe" sights introduced on the ASP-modified S&W 39s over forty years ago. They still haven't caught on (and the Steyr itself is a long, long ways from establishing itself as a defensive weapon). Frankly, the Steyr sights are probably adequate for point shooting ranges, but if you're shooting at point shooting ranges then point shoot--it's even faster.

**Mike Irwin** · January 8, 2006, 03:16 PM

"What I am saying is that capacity is a very poor substitute for marksmanship."

Then you've missed Webley's point, Handy, or at least the point I believe he was trying to make. He wasn't saying that having more ammo makes you a worse shot -- I think he was saying that people should never fall into the mindset of believing that more ammo will get them out of a bad situation based on number of rounds alone.

I've run into FAR too many people over my shooting career who have exactly that mindset.

You'll often find them at the range, where they hoot and bleat about "obsolete revolvers" and "dinosaur shooters" as they strut around in their size 76 desert camo pants with a ninja tactical low thigh holster stuffed with the highest capacity semi-auto they can find.

When it comes time to fire it, the range walls, ceiling, floor, and other shooters' targets are often as not what's hit. No big deal, though, they ususally have 4 or 6 extra magazines stuffed into strategic locations on their person...

Years ago, while selling guns, I actually had an individual purchase an S&W 5906 from me. He turned down the range time, saying that he didn't like to shoot much, but that if he ever got into a bad situation he figured he'd have enough ammo to get out of it.

Hum.... What's wrong with that picture?

I guess nothing, really...

As for your other question, some years ago I saw a report on the web that indicated that the vast majority of opportunity crimes against individuals, robberies, muggings, etc., are committed by people working alone and that group opportunity crimes are somewhat rare.

I'm still looking for it.

**Mike Irwin** · January 8, 2006, 03:22 PM

As with all things, individual choices will vary...

For example, were I forced to use the stock sights on a Steyr, I'd quit carrying a handgun altogether.

They are that %^(*&%()&*$()*&^ pathetically *(%^&%(*&#$(*&^ pieces of ()%^*&$%*()&^ bad.

The sights on Glocks are better.

**Mike Irwin** · January 8, 2006, 03:32 PM

In almost 30 years of revolver shooting (Smith & Wessons), I've had exactly 1 revolver malfunction, and that was caused by my missing a .32 S&W Long case that didn't get charged with powder.

With factory ammo, I've had 0 problems of any kind.

For anyone who doesn't know, I right now own 18 revolvers: S&W, Charter Arms, Hi Standard, and a few oldies that I occasionally shoot but which would never be considered for CCW.

In almost 25 years of semi-auto shooting I've had multiple failures to feed due to magazine problems with my Springfield 1911, extractor problems with my Radom, some stove pipes with Federal ammo with my EAA Witness 10mm, and some short cycling problems with my Browning Buckmark (which may be related to ammo).

I carry revolvers.

I also carry semi-autos.

The big picture?

I carry handguns in which I have 100% confidence.

Not just 100% confidence in their reliability under all conditions, but handguns in which I have 100% confidence in MY ability to use them effectively.

On the short list for guns that I carry for protection purposes:

S&W 042 .38 - Primary
Taurus PT-22 - Substitute primary

S&W Model 19 2.5"
HK P7PSP
Charter Arms Undercover

Para Bellum · January 8, 2006, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:" By the way a great self-defense necessity to be accurate with a handgun above 50m"
50 or 500?

I lost the "K" of "Km" here. 50 Km should be enough for defense. I recommend a GHN 45 for that purpose....

I think it's time to agree on the fact that neither one of us can convince the other of the Non-/Existence of the inherent superiority...

juliet charley · January 8, 2006, 06:09 PM

It's pretty clear that "inherent superiority" in nonexistent. It is a chimera based on some people's experience (and/or lack of experience), misinformation, perceptions and prejudices.

Little Silas · January 8, 2006, 07:23 PM

Your chances of having time to pull a gun during an armed robbery are very low and likely deadly for you. Things happen too quick.
Better to have a cheap billfold, very little cash and an expired credit card to give away.

HGKosteck · January 8, 2006, 07:35 PM

Inherent superiority of the revolver.....

Lord, lord lord.

IndianaDean · January 8, 2006, 09:26 PM

I like both, and I'm no big fan of Glocks, but cops having accidents (to me) is not a good indicator for Glocks. Police, particularly city, usually do not receive very much, or very good firearms training.

**Mike Irwin** · January 8, 2006, 10:14 PM

"Lord, lord lord"

You called, my son?

Look, you'll have to make this quick...

I'm playing poker with Daniel Baird Wesson, Horace Smith, and Sam Colt...

Brasso · January 8, 2006, 11:09 PM

The only personal experience I have with auto's vs. revolvers is the single shooting I happened to be at where the guy with two glocks, one in each hand, was lying face down in a yard with two .357 holes in his chest. Both glocks were jammed.

Jack Malloy · January 9, 2006, 07:58 AM

Ah yes, the proponents of the "Spray and Pray" tactics, LOL.....

Bruce Nelson used to say you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight. Of course those chaps are more interested in Mel Gibson movies than anything Mr. Nelson had to say on gunfight survival. ....

>>>You'll often find them at the range, where they hoot and bleat about "obsolete revolvers" and "dinosaur shooters" as they strut around in their size 76 desert camo pants with a ninja tactical low thigh holster stuffed with the highest capacity semi-auto they can find.
<<<

azredhawk44 · January 9, 2006, 12:35 PM

[It comes out from under the bridge]
Hi point should make revolvers. They would be the best!
[/It goes back under the bridge and waits]

guntotin_fool · January 9, 2006, 01:50 PM

As one who has actually been confronted by armed and angry gangbangers, it is not uncommon for them to group up into larger numbers. In a apartment where i was collecting rents, they had put three at the back door three at the front door, and two hiding in the stairwell. I was lucky, they were loud and the lady downstairs called my cell phone nad told me what was planned. That was eight. Plus the cops said two in 'sclade with a shotgun. I left via a fire escape and waited for the cops on hte roof.

another time in Downtown MPLS i was confronted by four youths who hard pushed for "donations" only pulling my weapon and telling them to Eff off got them to leave. I ran the 2 blocks to a opened resturant and called the cops from there.

But then i got shot by a single dopehead. you never know what is going to happen. But I carry a P13 para with two extra mags everytime i step out the front door.

I love revolvers. i have many. some single actions, some smiths two old colts and three DW's. i sleep with one two feet away from me. I carry a 44 mag when i got canoeing, but in the urban environment where i live i want size and capacity

OBIWAN · January 9, 2006, 03:41 PM

As someone else said...Mr Irwin armed with a revolver would be a formidable opponent no matter what you were carrying.

But for the rest of you....what is wrong with having more ammunition between reloads or being able to reload faster????

Do you really believe it makes us weaker somehow as a species

Next you will tell me that I can't run away as fast because I have velcro shoes instead of those old tried and true laces.

Borrowing from Brad Stine, since I can eat a bowl of soup faster with a spoon, I think it is BETTER than chopsticks

I don't really care about any statistics (average rounds expended ,etc).....it is the logic that escapes me

Para Bellum · January 9, 2006, 04:06 PM

Quote:

But then i got shot by a single dopehead. you never know what is going to happen. But I carry a P13 para with two extra mags everytime i step out the front door.

I'm glad you survived that!

Webleymkv · January 9, 2006, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Of those, I've seen three S&Ws lock up with factory ammo, no Rugers (they are a rarer gun though), and no jams or failures with any Sig or HK.
The best factory guns all work really well, yet my experience has been that of the best factory guns, some of the autos are more reliable.Yes, I have seen many "tuned" 1911s, crummy Tauruses and other questionable products work poorly. But I haven't seen a single RG or Star revolver on the range to compare them to. Make a fair comparison and the differences evaporate.

That's not exactly a fair comparison. First of all, There's a pretty good price descrepancy between a stock S&W and a SIG or HK. Secondly, I've never seen a S&W or any other revolver jam but I have seen a SIG jam on more than one occasion (no experience with HK). Finally, you said specifically that you've only seen S&W's jam. Could it be that these were some of the earlier attempts at making a stainless steel revolver? The earlier stainless specimens (the Model 66 comes to mind) had a flaw in the makeup of the steel. It would expand after heating up and jam up the gun. While this is definately not a good thing during a blazing firefight. The number of rounds required to do this in extremely unlikely to be fired in a realistic SD scenario.

Quote:

Some pistols jam, some revolvers jam. If revolvers jam there's basically nothing you can do but grab your backup if you have one. If a pistol jams you can clear the jam in 0,5-3 seconds depending on the type of jam. Some pistols never jam. But, here in the revolver forum, this can't be true, can it?

I already adressed this so it does not bear repeating. But once again try your rap tap bang drill with your blood pumping, one arm disabled, and the other slippery with blood. I think you'll find it much more difficult.

Quote:

The average is irrelevant. We prepare for the worst. And as a matter of fact, the only criminal that struck my office was a 5"11, 30yrs, 176# man on speed with a knife. He only stopped because his cheap folding knife broke after he had stabbed a colleague of mine in the head several times. That's real. You can't stop a young strong guy on speed with reason or fear. massive blood loss from multiple massive wounds or CNS destruction. That's all that might prevent you from being stabbed in the head. And given the amount of physical force a guy on speed deploys, I surely wouldn't want to rely on my 22years of intense practice of several martial arts.

First of all, my original statement is out of context and makes better sense in its original format. But once more kicks and giggles what if the worst is an assailant who is already on top of you? You may have to fire at point blank range or from inside your concealment garment (i.e. coat pocket) either one of which would surely jam an auto whereas a revolver is more likely to allow another shot. Finally, I restate my point that one would be unlikely to make good CNS hits on such a goblin more that five or six times before he closed the distance between the two of you anyway so capacity becomes a moot point once more.

Handy · January 9, 2006, 08:21 PM

What is the discrepency between a $550 Sig and a similarly priced S&W revolver? Both are examples of very good production level handguns.

And no, they were not old stainless Smiths.

Webleymkv · January 9, 2006, 08:34 PM

If you know where to get a new SIG 220, 225, 226, 228, or 229 for $550 let me know because they usually go for about $700+ around here. I don't doubt that you can get a quality used SIG for $550, but then again you can get a used S&W revolver for about $250. Also, I'm talking about a wider selection of brands here. I've had experience with Rugers, Makarovs, CZ's, SIGS, Walthers, Llamas, Stars, Norincos and Brownings in the auto pistol category (all of which has jammed at least once). In the revolver column we have S&W, Ruger, Taurus, and Astra: none of which have ever jammed. I think that covers the gauntlet of price with SIG, Walther, and Browning on the high end and Llama, Star, Norinco, Astra and Taurus on the bottom (not that any of the above are low quality) with Ruger, CZ, S&W, and Makarov lying somewhere in the middle.

Webleymkv · January 9, 2006, 08:50 PM

Oh, just for laughs, why not throw in opinions from experts? Jeff Cooper once said that a .357 Snub will do anything that needs doing across the bar. Chuck Hawks is quoted as saying that a 1911 is the best weapon for an expert but that the average person is probably better served by a revolver.

Handy · January 9, 2006, 10:23 PM

I would suggest you take a look at the P239, which debutted at $450, and is still not very expensive. In .357 Sig guise and 7 rounds it makes a good comparison to a defensive revolvers. (Of course the Sig Pros are $400, but let's not get carried away or anything.)

I'm always amazed with some people's "around here". Around here, we have the internet.

Webleymkv, just so we are being clear, I'm not saying that revolvers are unreliable and autos completely reliable. I'm saying that good versions of both are so reliable that it is deceitful to claim that this is an issue.

It IS an issue if you are a bonehead carrying some gun that you know nothing about, haven't tested, is brand new, and paid too little for. But that also applies equally to any kind of gun.

Good autos are as reliable as good revolvers. Don't let Jim Bob's dynamite 1911 fool you into believing that the kind of firearms issued to first world militaries work like cheap toys.

Revolvers have some complex internals and tight clearances, but work anyway. Autos have some dynamic actions to perform, but work anyway. They both have an Achilles heel of sorts, and they both deal with them just fine.

As far as quoting the press, Chuck was referring to 1911s specifically, not all auto pistols. And Jeff was speaking of the flexibility of the .357 round and platform, not criticising what he believes to be the ultimate handgun. From those quotes we can only infer that cocked and locked might be tricky, and .357 revolvers are flexible. There's nothing there that speaks of "superiority".

January 8, 2006, 03:16 PM	#81
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"What I am saying is that capacity is a very poor substitute for marksmanship." Then you've missed Webley's point, Handy, or at least the point I believe he was trying to make. He wasn't saying that having more ammo makes you a worse shot -- I think he was saying that people should never fall into the mindset of believing that more ammo will get them out of a bad situation based on number of rounds alone. I've run into FAR too many people over my shooting career who have exactly that mindset. You'll often find them at the range, where they hoot and bleat about "obsolete revolvers" and "dinosaur shooters" as they strut around in their size 76 desert camo pants with a ninja tactical low thigh holster stuffed with the highest capacity semi-auto they can find. When it comes time to fire it, the range walls, ceiling, floor, and other shooters' targets are often as not what's hit. No big deal, though, they ususally have 4 or 6 extra magazines stuffed into strategic locations on their person... Years ago, while selling guns, I actually had an individual purchase an S&W 5906 from me. He turned down the range time, saying that he didn't like to shoot much, but that if he ever got into a bad situation he figured he'd have enough ammo to get out of it. Hum.... What's wrong with that picture? I guess nothing, really... As for your other question, some years ago I saw a report on the web that indicated that the vast majority of opportunity crimes against individuals, robberies, muggings, etc., are committed by people working alone and that group opportunity crimes are somewhat rare. I'm still looking for it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 8, 2006, 03:22 PM	#82
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	As with all things, individual choices will vary... For example, were I forced to use the stock sights on a Steyr, I'd quit carrying a handgun altogether. They are that %^(&%()&$()&^ pathetically (%^&%(&#$(&^ pieces of ()%^&$%()&^ bad. The sights on Glocks are better. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 8, 2006, 03:32 PM	#83
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	In almost 30 years of revolver shooting (Smith & Wessons), I've had exactly 1 revolver malfunction, and that was caused by my missing a .32 S&W Long case that didn't get charged with powder. With factory ammo, I've had 0 problems of any kind. For anyone who doesn't know, I right now own 18 revolvers: S&W, Charter Arms, Hi Standard, and a few oldies that I occasionally shoot but which would never be considered for CCW. In almost 25 years of semi-auto shooting I've had multiple failures to feed due to magazine problems with my Springfield 1911, extractor problems with my Radom, some stove pipes with Federal ammo with my EAA Witness 10mm, and some short cycling problems with my Browning Buckmark (which may be related to ammo). I carry revolvers. I also carry semi-autos. The big picture? I carry handguns in which I have 100% confidence. Not just 100% confidence in their reliability under all conditions, but handguns in which I have 100% confidence in MY ability to use them effectively. On the short list for guns that I carry for protection purposes: S&W 042 .38 - Primary Taurus PT-22 - Substitute primary S&W Model 19 2.5" HK P7PSP Charter Arms Undercover __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 8, 2006, 07:23 PM	#86
Little Silas Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2005 Location: Hendersonville, Tennessee Posts: 183	Your chances of having time to pull a gun during an armed robbery are very low and likely deadly for you. Things happen too quick. Better to have a cheap billfold, very little cash and an expired credit card to give away. __________________ Smokestack Lightnin'

January 8, 2006, 10:14 PM	#89
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"Lord, lord lord" You called, my son? Look, you'll have to make this quick... I'm playing poker with Daniel Baird Wesson, Horace Smith, and Sam Colt... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 8, 2006, 07:29 AM	#76
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	The inherrent superiority of the revolver - - Simple. W/my Smith model 19 6" barrel. - If I can see it, I can hit it. W/any semi auto - If I can see it, I can probably hit it. THAT'S the superiority of the revolver.

January 8, 2006, 07:53 AM	#77
juliet charley Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 1999 Posts: 2,501	Ditto (and I would add "much faster" after "If I can see it, I can hit it").

January 8, 2006, 06:09 PM	#85
juliet charley Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 1999 Posts: 2,501	It's pretty clear that "inherent superiority" in nonexistent. It is a chimera based on some people's experience (and/or lack of experience), misinformation, perceptions and prejudices.

January 8, 2006, 07:35 PM	#87
HGKosteck Member Join Date: December 30, 2005 Posts: 61	Inherent superiority of the revolver..... Lord, lord lord.

January 8, 2006, 09:26 PM	#88
IndianaDean Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2004 Location: Indiana(obviously) Posts: 362	I like both, and I'm no big fan of Glocks, but cops having accidents (to me) is not a good indicator for Glocks. Police, particularly city, usually do not receive very much, or very good firearms training.

January 8, 2006, 11:09 PM	#90
Brasso Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 1999 Location: AL Posts: 472	The only personal experience I have with auto's vs. revolvers is the single shooting I happened to be at where the guy with two glocks, one in each hand, was lying face down in a yard with two .357 holes in his chest. Both glocks were jammed. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕʹ ICQ# 214858548

January 9, 2006, 07:58 AM	#91
Jack Malloy Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2005 Posts: 791	Ah yes, the proponents of the "Spray and Pray" tactics, LOL..... Bruce Nelson used to say you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight. Of course those chaps are more interested in Mel Gibson movies than anything Mr. Nelson had to say on gunfight survival. .... >>>You'll often find them at the range, where they hoot and bleat about "obsolete revolvers" and "dinosaur shooters" as they strut around in their size 76 desert camo pants with a ninja tactical low thigh holster stuffed with the highest capacity semi-auto they can find. <<<

January 9, 2006, 12:35 PM	#92
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	[It comes out from under the bridge] Hi point should make revolvers. They would be the best! [/It goes back under the bridge and waits]

January 9, 2006, 01:50 PM	#93
guntotin_fool Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2004 Posts: 1,446	As one who has actually been confronted by armed and angry gangbangers, it is not uncommon for them to group up into larger numbers. In a apartment where i was collecting rents, they had put three at the back door three at the front door, and two hiding in the stairwell. I was lucky, they were loud and the lady downstairs called my cell phone nad told me what was planned. That was eight. Plus the cops said two in 'sclade with a shotgun. I left via a fire escape and waited for the cops on hte roof. another time in Downtown MPLS i was confronted by four youths who hard pushed for "donations" only pulling my weapon and telling them to Eff off got them to leave. I ran the 2 blocks to a opened resturant and called the cops from there. But then i got shot by a single dopehead. you never know what is going to happen. But I carry a P13 para with two extra mags everytime i step out the front door. I love revolvers. i have many. some single actions, some smiths two old colts and three DW's. i sleep with one two feet away from me. I carry a 44 mag when i got canoeing, but in the urban environment where i live i want size and capacity

January 9, 2006, 03:41 PM	#94
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	As someone else said...Mr Irwin armed with a revolver would be a formidable opponent no matter what you were carrying. But for the rest of you....what is wrong with having more ammunition between reloads or being able to reload faster???? Do you really believe it makes us weaker somehow as a species Next you will tell me that I can't run away as fast because I have velcro shoes instead of those old tried and true laces. Borrowing from Brad Stine, since I can eat a bowl of soup faster with a spoon, I think it is BETTER than chopsticks I don't really care about any statistics (average rounds expended ,etc).....it is the logic that escapes me

January 9, 2006, 08:21 PM	#97
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	What is the discrepency between a $550 Sig and a similarly priced S&W revolver? Both are examples of very good production level handguns. And no, they were not old stainless Smiths.

January 9, 2006, 08:34 PM	#98
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	If you know where to get a new SIG 220, 225, 226, 228, or 229 for $550 let me know because they usually go for about $700+ around here. I don't doubt that you can get a quality used SIG for $550, but then again you can get a used S&W revolver for about $250. Also, I'm talking about a wider selection of brands here. I've had experience with Rugers, Makarovs, CZ's, SIGS, Walthers, Llamas, Stars, Norincos and Brownings in the auto pistol category (all of which has jammed at least once). In the revolver column we have S&W, Ruger, Taurus, and Astra: none of which have ever jammed. I think that covers the gauntlet of price with SIG, Walther, and Browning on the high end and Llama, Star, Norinco, Astra and Taurus on the bottom (not that any of the above are low quality) with Ruger, CZ, S&W, and Makarov lying somewhere in the middle.

January 9, 2006, 08:50 PM	#99
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	Oh, just for laughs, why not throw in opinions from experts? Jeff Cooper once said that a .357 Snub will do anything that needs doing across the bar. Chuck Hawks is quoted as saying that a 1911 is the best weapon for an expert but that the average person is probably better served by a revolver.

January 9, 2006, 10:23 PM	#100
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	I would suggest you take a look at the P239, which debutted at $450, and is still not very expensive. In .357 Sig guise and 7 rounds it makes a good comparison to a defensive revolvers. (Of course the Sig Pros are $400, but let's not get carried away or anything.) I'm always amazed with some people's "around here". Around here, we have the internet. Webleymkv, just so we are being clear, I'm not saying that revolvers are unreliable and autos completely reliable. I'm saying that good versions of both are so reliable that it is deceitful to claim that this is an issue. It IS an issue if you are a bonehead carrying some gun that you know nothing about, haven't tested, is brand new, and paid too little for. But that also applies equally to any kind of gun. Good autos are as reliable as good revolvers. Don't let Jim Bob's dynamite 1911 fool you into believing that the kind of firearms issued to first world militaries work like cheap toys. Revolvers have some complex internals and tight clearances, but work anyway. Autos have some dynamic actions to perform, but work anyway. They both have an Achilles heel of sorts, and they both deal with them just fine. As far as quoting the press, Chuck was referring to 1911s specifically, not all auto pistols. And Jeff was speaking of the flexibility of the .357 round and platform, not criticising what he believes to be the ultimate handgun. From those quotes we can only infer that cocked and locked might be tricky, and .357 revolvers are flexible. There's nothing there that speaks of "superiority".