The inherrent superiority of the revolver

[Jack Malloy]

Cooper has said several times that the typical police officer is probably better off with a revolver in a man stopping caliber.
Ive seen a few shootings over the years that were law enforcement related...
From the 41 rounds fired to shoot out a tire a few years ago to a more recent incident where a felon fleeing in an automobile was hit and killed with two rounds fired.
Based on that, I think spray and pray works fine- in Mel Gibson and Bruce Willis movies.
For the rest of us, no matter whether you use a revolver or an auto think FRONT SITE!!!!!
And as big a wheelgunner as I am, I have to admit that I have seen some stuff lately about new adaptions (as I call them) of classic designs that feature things not meant to be there (such as key locks) or renderings of exotic alloys that have been prone to failure.
For the sake of embarrassment, whenever I refer to revolvers, I am referring to Pre-Clinton era wheelguns.
Of course, now, almost a century later, some people are trying to convince us that the internal extractor of the 1911 is a poor concept. It is, if you don;t make it properly the way it was DESIGNED.
Cheaping stuff out and changing from the original design parameters is never a good idea.



>>Hi point should make revolvers. They would be the best!<<<

I thought they did. Havent you ever seen an RG? LOL....

[Tim Burke]

Originally Posted by OBIWAN

Since when does having more ammunition make you a worse shot

As the police have transitioned from revolvers to autos, haven't their shots fired per gunfight gone up, and their hit percentage gone down? Perhaps this is the source of the idea that more ammo is bad for marksmanship.

Originally Posted by Webleymkv

Jeff Cooper once said...

As long as we are referencing Cooper, wasn't he also the one that said that, while revolver malfunctions may be less common, they are more likely to require a gunsmith to return to firing status?
In discussions with firearms instructors, I have heard the claim that a revolver is less likely to make it through a week long 1200 round class.
I think the big advantage of the revolver is that the manual of arms for a failure to fire is so simple, quick and intuitive.
Carry what you want... if you are paying attention, you probably won't need it. If you need it, drawing it will probably be sufficient. If you actually have to fire it, and you are getting hits, it probably won't matter which one you have... and, if you are not getting hits, it probably won't matter which one you have, either.
I get better hits with a 1911.

[OBIWAN]

"As the police have transitioned from revolvers to autos, haven't their shots fired per gunfight gone up, and their hit percentage gone down? Perhaps this is the source of the idea that more ammo is bad for marksmanship."

That and a poor understanding of statistics/cause and effect relationships

Sure...more rounds are expended by the same poor shots.......

Because it is easier to shoot a lot more than 6 without reloading

But they were bad shots to begin with

[juliet charley]

AND higher capacity weapons did not make them better shots--just more dangerous to innocent bystanders and fellow officers.

[Webleymkv]

Webleymkv, just so we are being clear, I'm not saying that revolvers are unreliable and autos completely reliable. I'm saying that good versions of both are so reliable that it is deceitful to claim that this is an issue.

It IS an issue if you are a bonehead carrying some gun that you know nothing about, haven't tested, is brand new, and paid too little for. But that also applies equally to any kind of gun.

Good autos are as reliable as good revolvers. Don't let Jim Bob's dynamite 1911 fool you into believing that the kind of firearms issued to first world militaries work like cheap toys.

I agree that both can be very reliable. I do believe, however, that a revolver is at least somewhat more reliable than an auto. As Jack Malloy pointed out, some of the more recent attempts at internal locks that make the mechanism more complicated have greatly reduced the reliability of the revolver. I feel the need to clarify that most of the revolvers out there were manufactured before the advent of such things and are, in my estimation better. As far as the military or police go, I agree that they are probably better off with an auto. A police officer must rely on a handgun as his primary weapon. A soldier who is issued a pistol is usually not a frontline combatant. He is however still in a warzone and may need to rely upon his handgun as a primary weapon. These are about the only instances where I can see someone actually needing the capacity that an auto offers (They'd probably be better off with a compact shotgun or rifle over any handgun).

As far as quoting the press, Chuck was referring to 1911s specifically, not all auto pistols. And Jeff was speaking of the flexibility of the .357 round and platform, not criticising what he believes to be the ultimate handgun. From those quotes we can only infer that cocked and locked might be tricky, and .357 revolvers are flexible. There's nothing there that speaks of "superiority".

I think we could both agree that Jeff Cooper and Chuck hawks look upon the 1911 .45 as the best handgun available. I think we could also find that both, Colnel Cooper seems particuarly adamant, have some disdain for the high capacity 9mm and .40 auto. To rate a revolver as second to or in some cases better than a 1911 would seem to me to imply superiority over the Wundernines and .40's.

My original issue was with those who seem to think that anyone with a revolver is hoplessly undergunned (I am not implying that either you or Para Bellum have made such a statement). If you prefer an auto and are competent with you chosen tool then you are well prepared indeed. After all, competency with your weapon is, I think we could agree, vastly more important than what the weapon happens to be.

[aspen1964]

my favorite auto is the Colt Gov't....my favorite revolver is the Colt Official Police..my favorite carry gun is the Colt Detective Special..but they are all interchangable to my mind...shoot well and have a cool head under stress are the things you'd better have...

[Jack Malloy]

Remember, police had a lot of ADs with double action only revolvers too. Todays screening process for law enforcement is more concerned with things like how far can your run in 30 minutes, how many pull ups can you do, how sensative are you to the plight of third world residents etc...and there is very little emphasis on common sense or intelligence. Or weaponcraft.
Where I live, a police chief had to fire two of his best officers because they were fat. One guy subdued three people with his bare hands his first day on the job in a brawl in the parking lot (if you know many people in rural law enforcement, you know they spend a lot of time wrestling with rowdy drunks and not much time chasing fleet footed felons).
As for stats on shootings....
Basic hits per man vary. They never were great in the wheelgun era and depending upon what weapon is used now, they can be improved or the same or even worse depending upon which department and which weapon they transitioned to.
Departments that let you use a cocked and locked gun, or a gun that is cocked after the first shot have shown an improvement on range scores.
Departments with DA Only guns generally show the same hit percentages as they had when they used DA only revolvers. Some are less as a good wheelgun trigger is smoother than a middlin service auto trigger....
But remembre, there is a difference between scores on the range, where you are focused and intent and scores in a dark alley where you are in fear of your life and may be staining your shorts as the target shoots back at you.
As for malfs.....
Last fall, I read an interesting article by a novice handgunner who attended the Cooper gunsight training acadamy. He took along his Smith 625 revolver and when the rest of the class was busy with various malfunction training drills, the instructors just had him to practice dry firing....
Its actually very good reading...on the long side, but very well written and insightful...
Here is what he said ---
"We also did some malfunction drills. Not much for me to do there, except pull the trigger again. (Gotta like revolvers some days). Only thing one of the instructors did for me, was to take my gun after I'd shot a couple of rounds, spin the cylinder, and close it. So I didn't know quite where the fired chambers were. In any case, I'd gotten a good bit of practice with this sort of thing earlier, with my misfires. When Ed was describing the drills, he just said "Our revolver guy here has it made, he just pulls the trigger again."

The whole thing can be found here....
http://www.redchrome.org/gunsite/gunsite-trip.html

I would figure the trainers there probably see ten times as many shooters as the typical trainers.




>>>As the police have transitioned from revolvers to autos, haven't their shots fired per gunfight gone up, and their hit percentage gone down? Perhaps this is the source of the idea that more ammo is bad for marksmanship.

As long as we are referencing Cooper, wasn't he also the one that said that, while revolver malfunctions may be less common, they are more likely to require a gunsmith to return to firing status?
In discussions with firearms instructors, I have heard the claim that a revolver is less likely to make it through a week long 1200 round class.
I think the big advantage of the revolver is that the manual of arms for a failure to fire is so simple, quick and intuitive.
<<<

[Para Bellum]

AND higher capacity weapons did not make them better shots--just more dangerous to innocent bystanders and fellow officers.

sure. guns are dangerous so the police shouldn't have guns in the first place.

[juliet charley]

I don't know how you read that into my statement. Is English not your native tongue?

[AUSTRIANGUNNER]

"A very big untold story is the law enforcement injuries from Glocks." Anything more to tell about this?? Thaqnks.

[Larry C.]

JKWas,

I agree with you 100%. Revolvers are the guns I trust.

Larry C.

[Larry C.]

JKWas,

I agree with you 100%. Revolvers are the guns I trust. There's something about the trigger in my Model 10..I'm confidant with it!

Larry C.