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October 15, 2009, 08:49 AM | #76 |
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I have to take issue it is not unreasonable after a traumatic incident to be checked out by a doctor. Even if my posts are discovered apres' shooting I am not making any kind of admission of guilt I am stating that you should be checked out to make sure you are not having a stress induced cardiac arrest and avail your self of any pain reliever that is authorized by ALS SMOs as a preventive measure.
In fact, that is one of the protocols followed by certain pro Police municipalities, protects against liability for the city and excited utterances by a Copper who was just in a life or death situation. I urge every TC victim to at least have the medics check them out just to make sure they are ok what is the issue with seeking medical attention in an incident of a justified shooting. why is it always the Bad Guy that is protected not the Good Guy. It is not slimy to do everything in your power to protect yourself, you were put in this position by circumstance or in Copper's case by your duty. You can rest assured the BG will be doing everything in their power to get the upper hand. So don't be the noblest convicted Man slaughterer or loser of a civl suit or unemployed Cop Last edited by Wagonman; October 15, 2009 at 08:54 AM. |
October 15, 2009, 11:02 AM | #77 | ||||
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Quote:
In post 64 you wrote Quote:
In post 73 you wrote Quote:
You absolutely need to preserve your credibility. Once you are caught in a lie, your credibility is pretty much out the window. Your testimony about what happened will usually be the principal evidence supporting your claim that you were justified in resorting to lethal violence. Lying will not help. Yes, you have a right to protect yourself from police questioning immediately after a traumatic event. But you don't have to lie. Invoke your right to remain silent, ask for a lawyer or say the things that Massad Ayoob recommends. But don't lie. As Glenn Dee wrote Quote:
Last edited by Frank Ettin; October 15, 2009 at 11:19 AM. |
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October 15, 2009, 01:22 PM | #78 |
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I am not backtracking. I unequivocally state that after a self defense shooting I would advise not speaking to the Police until I have been medically examined. Saying "I have chest pains" is short hand for I need medical attention. "I am having trouble breathing" is fine also. because if you think you will be feeling ok after a shooting you aren't facing reality. The idea is to give you an amount of time to relax, think, and wait for an attorney.
I am kinda at a loss at the disagreement with an innocuous bit of advice. We (the police) have had training in interrogation tactics and you are not always gonna get a pro CCW Copper responding. so my ADVICE is to delay the interrogation until you are in a better position from a chemical cocktail and a legal representation point of view. |
October 15, 2009, 01:40 PM | #79 |
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If I don't want to answer questions...
... the police can't make me do so.
If I'm detained, Miranda applies. If I'm not detained, I can leave at will. Tricks aren't required. I'd only request medical assistance if I actually felt medical assistance were required. For legal assistance, I want a lawyer, not an ambulance. |
October 15, 2009, 01:41 PM | #80 | |
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Quote:
And of course delay interrogation, but you need not lie to do it. I'm kind of at a loss at a police officer suggesting that a victim of a violent crime start off the investigation by telling a lie. |
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October 15, 2009, 04:00 PM | #81 |
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You are not telling a lie that is germaine to the investigation. I would posit you are not lying at all just being on the safe side with regard to your health.
I understand Miranda, however, I have seen people not avail themselves of their Miranda protection when the only thing they should say is "I want a lawyer" I am just suggesting something to keep in the back of your mind should the need arise. If my suggestion injures your sense of right and wrong I apologize. |
October 15, 2009, 04:11 PM | #82 |
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I think that some of us are putting the cart before the horse. Were being convicted in our minds before the investigation begins. A shooting investigation is almost always conducted by 3 or 4 people. The first officer, his supervisor, the investigator, possibly his supervisor, and at least one forensics tech. 99% of the time they will figure out exactly what happened. Most often they will ask the shooter " what happened?" Giving a simple statement such as "Some guy broke in my picture window, and came in screaming, waving a crow bar" No reason to go into details... If the Investigator asks detailed questions like "how tall was he?" " what was he wearing?", "What exactly was he saying?" at that point you may want to beg off of the questioning, and ask to do it at a later time. I'ts OK to be upset... It's OK to stop to gather your thoughts. No one can tell you how long that should take. Making a rehersed sounding statement will only sound suspicious. Everything thats being suggested here has been tried before. If you need medical attention... you need medical attention. If you dont have anything to say.... say nothing. If you feel that you need a lawyer, by all means tell them you want a lawyer. JUST DONT LIE!!! Dont overcomplicate the situation. Keep it simple, and to the truth... the truth can be proven.... so can a lie
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October 15, 2009, 06:24 PM | #83 | |
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Quote:
I have seen lawyers use a past lie, or conduct that one might consider cynical or tricky, to effectively cast doubt on everything someone later says. A lie or a ruse can, and will, be used to attack your credibility. But if you are claiming self defense, it will be important that you be believed. Telling a lie is a lousy way to go about it. |
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October 15, 2009, 10:18 PM | #84 |
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How in the world is a prosecutor going to paint a victim of a aggravated assault getting medical attention in a poor light. I am not and would never advise anyone to lie about any aspect of a shooting. I am just passing on a strategy that has been used to protect vulnerable victims in a serious situation. Don't want to take the advice have at it. But, it is still helpful especially for Coppers who Effectively don't have Miranda protection.
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October 15, 2009, 11:09 PM | #85 | |||
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Quote:
In post 77, we looked at some of your past inconsistent statements. As I've quoted in that post you've advised people to claim chest pains even if the claim is untrue, and you've characterized saying so as a trick to gain time. And you are also now seeing first hand how your prior, ill considered statements can be used to attack your credibility. Quote:
Quote:
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October 16, 2009, 01:02 AM | #86 | ||
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I have gotton some expert advice which has caused me to change my mind regarding CIVILIAN shootings. If you don't think you need medical attention don't request it. But, I would just to be on safe side. Make a short simple statement then remain silent until you receive legal representation. Which is all the request for the medical attention was---not an lie just an aid to keep an over zealous investigator out of your face until you have calmed down.
That said, Quote:
Quote:
I am sorry but in the real lawsuit adverse world nobody is going to make an issue of anyone in Police custody obtaining medical attention. |
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October 16, 2009, 01:11 AM | #87 | ||
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Wagonman, I'm glad you got the expert advice.
That said -- Quote:
Quote:
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October 16, 2009, 01:22 AM | #88 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
I agreed with you but you still beat the dead horse. |
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November 1, 2009, 03:18 PM | #89 |
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The Law of Unintended Consequences of Well Intentioned Acts
Hello all:
Partly because of this thread, I decided to devote the cover article for the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network E-Journal to this particular subject matter. Enjoy. http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...rk_11-2009.pdf
__________________
Marty Hayes, President The Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, LLC. www.armedcitizensnetwork.org Last edited by Marty Hayes; November 1, 2009 at 03:22 PM. Reason: typo |
November 1, 2009, 03:43 PM | #90 |
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Very well reasoned article. I would make the case that KISS would be the best advice.
"He threatened my life, I thought he was going to kill me, I attempted to escape he denied me that opportunity." "There is the weapon he used" I called for police assistance for me and EMS assistance for him" "I wish to sign Aggravated Assault complaints against him" In the case of the On duty Copper involved in a shooting follow whatever advice given by your legal reps. |
November 1, 2009, 04:44 PM | #91 |
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What I was told to do was to be on the phone with the police and while on the phone yell out what room you are in and that you are armed and will shoot if they come in.
I dont think this is the best thing to do though |
November 1, 2009, 07:24 PM | #92 |
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Wagonman, my brother, it sounds as if after four pages we've all reached consensus.
When the stakes on the table are as large as what we're talking about here, consensus is good. best to all who contributed here, Mas |
November 2, 2009, 11:18 AM | #93 |
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+1 Mas
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