VCDL Suggestions About How To Handle Calls From The ATF

[yankytrash]

From the last VA-Alert:

URGENT! Sniper Alert - your guns could be in jeopardy - PLEASE READ

The is a very important message - please read it in its entirety:

Governor Warner has stood up to pressure from the media to push for
gun control in the wake of the sniper attacks in the DC area. We
should thank him for his firm stance in protecting the rights of
Virginia's gun owners during this sad time. He as correctly pointed
out that there are already laws against murder on the books and more
laws are not the answer. He said that there will be a severe penalty
when the sniper or snipers are caught.

We hope that the politicians in Maryland are not using the sniper
shooting to stir up a frenzy against gun owners. However, numerous
reports from Maryland are indicating that is exactly what they are
doing. From reports that VCDL is seeing, gun owners in Maryland are
being harassed by the Maryland State Police, probably for political
purposes, just before an election. People with .223 rifles, we are
told, are being pressured on the telephone to turn in their guns for
"voluntary" ballistic fingerprinting - and the pressure is intense.
Reports say that police seem to know every gun the citizen has!

Does it strike you as strange that the possibility of a terrorist
cell doing the sniping is consistently being ruled out by Maryland
Police in favor of the a disgruntled single gun owner? No one has
any idea who the sniper is, if there is more than one, or much else.
So how can anyone say it is not a terrorist? It just doesn't make
sense. In other investigations the police are constantly keeping all
their options open.

We have NOT had gun owner harassment happen in Virginia THAT WE KNOW
OF. And we are not trying to put out a false alarm, but the evidence
is mounting. A member reported being in a NOVA gun store *today*
that had 3 BATF agents going over the records and gathering
information on owners of .223 rifles. So it may be getting ready to
start here.

Let's be clear - if you voluntarily hand over your guns to the police
or BATF for ballistic fingerprinting, there is no guarantee that you
will ever see them again.

For the police to take your guns requires a warrant. But they can
ask and, if you turn them over voluntarily, that is legal.

If you get a harassing call as described above, do the following things:

1. Get the name, badge number, phone number, and department that the
caller is from
2. Tell the person that you need to check out the call and will get
back to them
3. Call 911 and verify that this is a legitimate call
4. Contact an attorney immediately - VCDL has some attorneys it can recommend
5. Contact VCDL so we know what is going on
6. If you should, for whatever reason, decide to turn your guns
over, get a signed document showing when you
will be getting those guns back

Armed citizens are an asset, not a liability. There are 110,000
permit holders in Virginia, far out numbering the police. We
absolutely don't recommend vigilantism, but an armed citizen could be
in the right place at the right time to legally stop this murderous
assassin or assassins. As we are constantly reminded, the police
simply cannot be everywhere.

Here is the contact information for the Governor, to thank him for
not pushing gun-control:

http://www.governor.state.va.us/Contact/email_form.html

Here is the phone number: (804) 786-2211. Here is his fax: (804) 371-6351



VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. (VCDL). VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization dedicated to defending the civil rights of all Virginians. The membership considers the right to keep and bear arms an essential human right.

VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org

[4thHorseman]

Done.

[Apple a Day]

Sent

[tyme]

They might not be harrassing rifle owners in VA simply because they're following the traditional serial-killer wisdom that killers' first act is in an area they're most familiar with. That points to MD. If they give up on that aspect of the suspects' profile(s), VA gun owners might start getting the same calls and treatment.

[marc357]

A phone call to Gilbert's Small Arms, in Newington, VA- confirmed: ATF has already been in and taken the Form 4473s FROM THE LAST 10 YEARS. I expect a call soon... to which I will firmly, but politely- invite them to KISS MY A$$ ..... my .02

[coati]

Good thing to post this info, yankytrash. I sent in my membership renewal/contribution today, and I'd encourage anyone (like yanky encouraged me) who cares about supporting a strong firearms organization with good people to join VCDL.

The stuff with the 4473's is crap. Gun registration is here, it would sadly seem.

Dumb question: does Gilbert's, or any other gun shop, have the option to protect the rights of its customers and registered members?

[David Park]

Update to the above VCDL message: you probably shouldn't call 911 unless absolutely necessary. Instead, call the non-emergency number for your local police. I keep the Fairfax number in my cellphone "just in case," and I should probably add the VA State Police number.

coati, Gilbert's could, and should, refuse to turn over their list of range members or sign-in log (if they keep one) without a search warrant. However, the 4473s can be viewed by the BATF on demand. The dealer has the option to refuse, but they'll probably end up in court and lose their FFL license.

All FFLs should read the Gun Owners Foundation guide to dealing with the BATF:
http://www.gunowners.com/batf.htm

I haven't gotten any calls, but I don't own any .223 firearms and I never answer my phone anyway (caller ID ).

[coati]

Good thing to post this info, yankytrash. I sent in my membership renewal/contribution today, and I'd encourage anyone (like yanky encouraged me) who cares about supporting a strong firearms organization with good people to join VCDL.

The stuff with the 4473's is crap. Gun registration is here, it would sadly seem.

Dumb question: does Gilbert's, or any other gun shop, have the option to protect the rights of its customers and registered members?

[answerguy]

...the ATF has always had the right to go to any FFL at any time and peruse their records. Whether any other agencies have that right, I don't know. Questions to ask ourselves; do we want this sniper jerk caught, do we want to hinder the investigation? How about a compromise. Tell whatever LEO asks you about the .223 you purchased recently that you'll go to the range with them and shoot off a round for them. This way they can cross you off their suspect list and go find the real guy.

[C.R.Sam]

3. Call 911 and verify that this is a legitimate call

I question the usefulness of calling 911 or your local dispatch to verify the validity of a call from ATF or other feds. Just because the locals don't know about the calling does not mean the calls are bogus, just means the feds haven't bothered to tell the locals what they are doing.

Not unusual.

[MessedUpMike]

I'm with answerguy co-operation can be done without turn ourselves into subjects. I think may even have a spare shell casing lying around that they can have. If not I'll create one real quick

Got a question for H-Bar owners. Did we even fill out 4473s upon purchase? If I recall correctly the don't fall all of the way under the "Assault Rifle" rules. At least not in Md.


Mike

[answerguy]

...but if it's a gun you filled out a 4473. All guns require the same form.

On the other part of your reply I don't think the ATF would be satisfied with a brass you handed them.

[Southla1]

I don't ever have to worry about them calling me . I have that deluxe caller ID and I NEVER answer any call that is not a family member (I know all the numbers to them). Drives tele-marketers crazy. To make a long story short I HATE phones. As far as my guns over 90% of mine were bought from private parties, inherited, or bought before 1968 and they are NOT all in the same place. Guns? What guns?

[MessedUpMike]

H-Bar is the designation for heavy barrelled AR-15s. It started out as the Colt Sporter and somehow mutated to mean any heavy barrelled AR-15. In TPRMd AR-15 and other "Assault Rifles" are considered "regulated" weapons, and subject to the same purchasing red tape as handguns, ie. "safety class", waiting period etc. The H-Bar on the other hand is exempted from this shpilkus and may be bought off the rack. The reason I asked about the 4473 is that I remember filling out far more paper work for my pistol than I did for my AR. I bought an H-Bar specifically so that I wouldn't have to wait.


Mike

[george miller]

know where the guns are at..imagine that.