9mm. vs. rottweiler

[jkdo]

the 9mm makes no sense to me. well unless you were just going to use it for target practice at the shooting range. It is not a defense round. And you have to use three times as many 9mm as you would one .45


That,s a very ignorant statement.I guess,most western military units and Law enforcement Agencies got it all wrong.

[casingpoint]

he problem with most handgun rounds is over-penetration

From what some people with medical backgrounds have said lately on TFL, most bullets recovered in cadavers exhibit no expansion. They say they find no difference between calibers in examining tissue damage. Naturaly if HP's don't expand in practice, they will over pernetrate just like ball ammo. If this is indeed the case, then shot placement becomes the main criteria for stopping ability, not caliber or the type of bullet nose. I popped off a few .32 APC FMJ's this afternoon out of an old Walther PP. You wouldn't have wanted to have been downstream inside the proverbial 21 foot radius of most personal confrontations. There is an argument herein for the smaller calibers in FMJ and ball if good shot placement is the shooter's norm. Otherwise, get a .44 Magnum and open fire. Even if you don't hit anything, the GD noise will drop 'em.

[JJB2]

caseingpoint is that true? i'd think with a jsp or a hollow point the hydralics of a body would still be opening up the mushrooms at magnum velocities... i could be wrong...................

[Aus]

"best way to stop a big dog is to wrap your left arm and hand real good with a coat or some other cloth and shove it in his face ,when he bites on it mace him or shoot him in the brain .works every time with out fail "

LOL
you've never been a helper, or a catcher.

[trigger happy]

Amen Desertscout1

[Rob96]

Dogs are hard animals to put down. Over on the stopping power board, an L.E.O. posted of conducting a raid, and being charged by a Rottie. Three well placed rounds of TAP ammo from an AR and the dog was still able to run away. These are animals with animal instincts. To blame the 9mm is silly.

[stealthmode]

the dog owner should be shot

[Rob96]

the dog owner should be shot

Very true.. I am a Rottie owner. Great dogs. They are very loyal, obedient, strong, with great endurance. Unfortunately there are those that choose to exploit this.

[357 sig 229 sauer]

One isolated incident does not totally discredit the effectiveness of the 9mm round. After all, it has been proven through several wars on humans, dogs and many other creatures. Heck my friend shot a 400 Ibs black bear with a .22 LR and stopped it dead. Does that mean everyone should start hunting bears with .22s?

The FBI has conducted several studies, and have concluded that shot placement (not size of the round) is what matters most when it comes to stopping man, and I would think this rule would apply to 4 legged beasts as well.




Yeah,but the FBI no longer uses the 9mm

[Hal]

8 years of reading threads dealing with shooting dogs gone wrong has lead me to one conclusion:

Dogs are quite a bit harder to stop than people realize.

Maybe even tougher than a 200 pound plus speed freak all pumped up.

[Mark54g]

do you just make this stuff up or do you have someone equally or more uninformed than yourself give you this garbage? You want target practice? use a pellet gun (and obey all the same rules because somebody could STILL get hurt)
Tell those millions of people killed with 9mm that it is an ineffective self defense caliber.

[Little Silas]

Why do safari guides use a 12 ga. loaded with 00 buck for backup?
That tells the story.

[Musketeer]

best way to stop a big dog is to wrap your left arm and hand real good with a coat or some other cloth and shove it in his face ,when he bites on it mace him or shoot him in the brain .works every time with out fail .

And you have done this and had it work. I saw a great demonstration of a personal protection trained 200 pound English Mastiff. The "victim" who was wearing tons of padding put the arm out for the dog and was taken clear off his feet. The dog proceeded to flail him about like a rag doll. You feel free to try to mace him in the eyes at that point of shoot him...

At the same time the best thing I have found for stopping most dogs is to hit him with peppergas. I carry it and have used it when I deliverred pizza over a decade ago.

The 9mm, with the right loading, is no better or worse than the 40, 45 or other common defense rounds. Anyone saying otherwise is full of manure. We could relate stories of dogs and people taking multiple hits from anything from a 22 to a 308 and still not dropping so one could argue anything short of the 16" guns of the USS New Jersey are not enough...

[Duxman]

357 sig

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...05/jan2005.htm

I have looked long and hard for articles on the FBI not using the 9mm. And as far as I can tell - that is an incorrect assumption.

Regardless - this is not a 9mm vs .45 vs .44 magnum debate.

If you disagree with shot placement being the single most important factor in stopping dogs or other critters, carry what you want - its a free country.

[High Planes Drifter]

posted by trigger happy:
I don't think the dog is going to wait around for you to get back with that ammonia dogs have no respect for "Time Out"
--------------------------------------------------

It goes without saying that if I knew I was going to confront an irrate hound I would have brought spray - be it ammonia, pepper, whatever- with me in the first place. Scince you didnt draw that from my original post I've cleared it up for you. No charge.

[casingpoint]

<casingpoint is that true>

Don't know. Could be in Houston soon. I'll run by the ER at Ben Taub Hospital and talk to the docs and nurses there. They certainly see enough gunshot victims at this large hospital-of-last-resort-cuz-you-ain't-got-no-insurance to know all about bullet wounds in people. Better yet, I'll find out what they're packing.

[Holman]

Shot placement is the first factor in stopping what you are shooting at. Ammo selection plays a part in this also. Caliber size is irrelevant if you can not hit the side of a barn with it.

practice, practice, practice

A well placed shot with a 9MM is no comparison to a bad shot from a larger and more powerful hand gun. I will take my chances with the caliber I shoot with more accuracy.

[BUSTER51]

looks like this is a very touchy subject .I don't want to get into the 9mm is a whimp BS .all I am saying is I have seen this work on dogs before twice and it was very effective both times .I suppose if the dog was big enough and you were slow and small enough it might be a problem.as for me I am 6-2 and 300 pounds (love my beer and steak) and carry a Colt Defender in .45 all the time (CCW since 1992) and I feel confident no dog will through me around and disarm me .by the way I would be more worried about a Pit bull than a Rottie or Msatiff they are much better behaved than Pit's .what you realy gotta watch out for are those 2 leged varmints .

[tom650604]

Put it this way,,,,,, The majority of law enforcement dept in this country move to the 40SW for a reason.

[Anthony2]

From what some people with medical backgrounds have said lately on TFL, most bullets recovered in cadavers exhibit no expansion. They say they find no difference between calibers in examining tissue damage. Naturaly if HP's don't expand in practice, they will over pernetrate just like ball ammo. If this is indeed the case, then shot placement becomes the main criteria for stopping ability, not caliber or the type of bullet nose.

This seems to be a logical conclusion, yet it poses questions:

If the primary problem is over penetration, why are there HP's?
Call me stupid for asking but aren't HP's supposed to expand quickly and be far superior to ball ammo is SD situations?
For that matter, why not just buy a round that is a little slower?
IWSTM that as long as your hitting the vitals it doesn't matter if the bullet exits the threat, dead is dead.

[Rob96]

as for me I am 6-2 and 300 pounds (love my beer and steak) and carry a Colt Defender in .45 all the time (CCW since 1992) and I feel confident no dog will through me around and disarm me .

I am 6'1". 235 pounds and regularly go to the gym. I am also the owner of a Rottie. I can tell you with absolute certainty, a Rottie would pose a grave threat to you. Rotties unlike Pitt's clamp on then use their massive neck and chest muscles and jerk, twist you from side to side. Tests have been conducted on bite strength and Rotties came in towards the bite strength of tigers, exceeding that of German Sheps, and Pitts. My Rottie stands 26" at the front shoulders and weighs 110 pounds, and we have "fun" can throw me around. Have heard from contacts that police departments have retired their Rotties becasue of them causing dislocations and other various injuries.

Put it this way,,,,,, The majority of law enforcement dept in this country move to the 40SW for a reason.

This is not justification to switch from 9mm to 40. The top 3 defensive calibers, 9mm, 40S&W and 45acp, perform to alike than different.

Unlike humans, dogs or other animals do not realize they have been shot. The psychological effect of being shot also plays a role in stopping a human threat.

[odessastraight]

I would think the 9mm would certainly be marginally adequate for house cats...OK, and probably Chihuahuas if they aren't too excited.

[357 sig 229 sauer]

Duxman

The FBI does not use the 9mm

the 10mm and 40 cal were created because of the 9mm failures

[gunslinger555]

they should have used a shotgun

[croyance]

I can observe that Law Enforcement, both the guys on the street and the people who make buying decisions, are as subject to fad as the gun owning community at large.
As a group we also seem to look down on the average firearms skill and knowledge of police officers as a whole, so using them to add credibility to one caliber over another seems silly.

On dogs - the larger fighting dogs used to be bred as war dogs. They were meant to take down armoured fighting men. Height is also somewhat of a disadvantage in keeping on your feet.