9mm. vs. rottweiler

[razorburn]

A rottweiler is not a fighting dog, it's a working breed. An animals max bite strength is almost impossible to measure, since there's no way of making sure it's actually biting at max pressure. Scientists just use estimates based off of skull structure.

Rotties are big animals, males pretty close to the size of a deer, and with the same animal toughness. It doesn't reflect on people or the ineffectiveness of the round that it didn't bring that animal down.

[RsqVet]

No big suprise and not the fault of 9mm, I have seen it happen with 40 and personally still have one of the slugs I took out of the dog sitting on my desk --- was a pitter not a rottie so if one wanted to trash 40 the dog was 1/2 the size of a large rottie

Anyway a dog attacking you is a harder / smaller target than a person --- think about it --- a frontal profile of a human basicaly gives you the broadside target of an animal --- easy targeting of the vitals.

Point is shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

The bite force arguments are BS disproven years ago and irrelevent ingeneral --- almost as irrelevent the folks who talk about 380 as if getting shot by one is nothing... yeah right, no one wants to get bit period and a nasty dog is a nasty dog, period, if you want to argue that a dog of a certin look should be banned fine, black rifles with pistol grips so forth should be as well.

[odessastraight]

Psychology certainly does play a part when deciding which duty/carry sidearm to use, but, also, much research, testing, and empirical evidence went into our choice of the .45 ACP. If you haven't read about the results of the Thompson and LaGarde tests you can find it with a www search.

We didn't have the .45 ACP until Thompson (and later Browning) started experimenting with it (200 gr hardball @ about 900 fps) in about 1905. What failed miserably against the Moro was the then current government .38 Long Colt. There were also failures of .45 LC and even of .30-40 Krag...but not like the abysmal failure of the .38. The Army had old .45 peacemakers refurbished and reissued them because of the failures of the .38 Colt.

Like everyone else here I give my opinion. Mine is based on military service, from Vietnam up through the first Gulf war. I've also done CCW for much of my adult life. I don't have any experience as a cop and don't even attempt to give any opinions related to LE weapons/tatics. I will say that the great majority of those having combat experience in the military where they relied primarly on a sidearm for personal protection would (or did) feel very insecure armed with the 9mm. I never heard of any unit having a choice of sidearms/caliber and choosing to carry the 9mm. I was forced to carry it for a couple of years before my retirement and still have nightmares related to that sad state of affairs. I'll never own another. If you do, fine. Just don't become friendly with me...because...friends don't let friends carry 9mm. OK, we can be friends, just don't tell me you carry a 9mm.

[IM_Lugger]

I don’t get how people can say things like - I don’t feel confident with 9mm or I wouldn‘t carry anything under .40 or .45. The difference between 9mm/.40/.45 is too small to just give ‘confidence’ You either have it (confidence in using a gun to defend yourself) or you don’t, calibre has little to do with it (since were not talking about BB guns here)

[rwilson452]

Some years ago one of my workmates was attacked by three rottweilers. He got chewed real bad. when the PD arrived one dog had returned and attempted to attack again. the dog was hit five times before it stopped the attack. it then walked about 10 yards, laid down and died. the LEO was using a glock 9mm. Oh, the reason they left the first time was a landscaper was beating them with a shovel.

PS: I carry a 1911

in .45ACP of course.

[Jammer Six]

The problem with the shot placement theory is that center mass isn't always fatal, or even significant.

No one is as good as they want to be or think they will be under fire.

[lil_bro]

On the 9mm is weak (which its not ) topic would y'all (9mm bashers) say a .357mag is weak? I have a friend whos mom shot a Pitbull at point-blank range in the head with a .357mag and the dog lived the bullet never went through the skull so I guess by this it means the .357mag is a weak and inferior round?So now this means we all must carry at least a .44mag with us at all times
Now the reason the .357mag did not go through the skull of the dog is because my friends mom who shot the dog hit the dog's head along the "side" of the skull and the bullet just skipped off.Like all the good people on this forum have been saying its all about shot placement NOT the caliber (to a point) Now I carry a 9mm when I go hiking because is the higher round capacity and I know that there are Rottwieler's around because there is some guy that lives around us that has three of them that run loose all the time and my neighbor has had some goats killed by them.And we also have some kind of MASSIVE canine "thing" running around where we live we still don't quite know what it is really but the tracks me and my bro found are a good 4in across we now have a game-cam set up with some pics in it but gota get the film developed I will let y'all know what we come up with.

Michael.

[robroy15]

Some years back, a buddy of mine was jogging along a low, arrow pointed iron fence. Pit Bull, from across the street decided that he thought that the jogger was a threat. Dog got through his fence, ran across the street toward my friend. Friend jumped over the iron fence, not quite. Impaled the calf of one leg in the arrow pointed fence top.

Friend was able to extract himself from the fence and crawl to the house. 911 was called. Female police officer showed up and confronted the dog. The dog attacked. The officer fired a .357 magnum.

Later, the poor dog owner filed a complaint against the city, citing four(4) bullet holes in their poor dog. "Why did she shoot my dog four times" Facts came out that there was one entrance wound in the chest (shallow wound), one exit wound, one entrance wound in the dog's leg(shallow wound), and one exit wound in the leg. That is four holes from one round.

The G--D dog survived. So did my friend, after many days in the hospital and months of treatment and healing from the spear on the fence.

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by robroy15

The G--D dog survived. So did my friend, after many days in the hospital and months of treatment and healing from the spear on the fence.

I'm sorry to say that the G--D dog did nothing to your friend. I'd blame the fence. Now if the dog actually bit your friend, you could blame the dog. Better yet, blame the friggin' owner for not keeping their dog secured.

After 4 pages of posts here, I think it is safe to say that:
-Most 4 legged creatures are harder to put down than 2 legged ones. Dogs are much stronger than humans pound for pound.
-Shot placement is critical no matter what you are shooting.
-Carry enough gun to reliably penetrate to the vitals.
-Pepper sprays may be more effective on dogs than humans since their noses are so much more sensitive.

Is the 9mm sufficient for dogs? Personally, I would prefer a shotgun loaded with 00 buck but I can't walk around with one all day. If you shoot your 9mm well and you can usually hit what you are aiming at, your 9mm should be enough. It might take a few shots to get the job done though. If you move into the 10mm or .44 mag range, you should get the job done quicker. There are advantages of higher powered rounds but they are only incremental compared to a long gun. So this boils down to carry the most gun you can shoot well and still carry on a regular basis. Even a .500 S&W won't do a darn bit of good if it is in your gun safe rather than on your person!

[Socrates]

Well, first line of Rott defense is this:

I've decided to change my FA over the the JRH 500. Apparently a nice little 440 grain, .50 Caliber bullet, at 1000 fps, hits like a 375 H&H rifle. It's killed 1600 pound asian water buffalo, very large bison, pigs, and deer. As a general rule, even at this slow pace, it goes end to end, or exits, and, hits like a ton of bricks. In fact, hunter's observation is, the faster it goes, the LESS effect it has on game.

Think it might even take down a Rott.;-)

S

[stratus]

Originally Posted by gdeal

the 9mm makes no sense to me. well unless you were just going to use it for target practice at the shooting range. It is not a defense round. And you have to use three times as many 9mm as you would one .45.

Where'd you get that crap?

[Para Bellum]

sounds like good and effective placement out of a good and effective gun.
It's absolutely normal that anything the size of a big dog, human, pig etc needs 5-8 hits to go down. The four hits mentioned in this story mean only 1,5 - 2 seconds including draw time for a trained shooter. Stopping a rottweiler within 1,5 - 2 seconds is quite successful and good work. Neither handgun caliber would have performed better. A 12ga 00 shotgun maybe. But with that you'd have 9 simulateous hits with the first shot....

If you want to see a non-advertisement comparison of 9x19mm, .40 and .45, check this out, study the data sheet, scroll down to see all the tests, and make up your own mind
http://www.raoulwagner.com/tests2005.htm

[Shaun]

just posting an agreement with stephen....my ex owned several american pitbull terriers....the biggest being 50-55 lbs. One day three of the dogs decided they didnt like each other and went a little ape. I was home alone with them and had to break it up. First i got one dog off the pile and caged it. Then the other two who were going bananas were next. When that pit refused to unlock from the other dogs neck, I punched it as hard as i could in the head, ribs and spine, she wasnt even phased. It took me 4 agonizingly long minutes to get her off and i pretty much had to have her bite me before she stopped. Now, I am 6 foot 240 lbs and I've knocked grown men out with one punch but this animal a quarter the size of a full grown human barely blinked. To reiterate, Dogs are not people, what can kill/hurt/stop a human is not the same as what will stop a large dog. If you want to stop a charging dog get a Remington 870 and some 00 Buck, then you wont have to worry so much about shot placement.

[Jack Malloy]

Its funny. I was just telling my local police chief about my first Colt Combat Commander last night.
Years ago, working industrial security I had to shoot our guard dog to put it down, after some drug addled trucker shot her in the head with a .25 auto.
I gave the dog which was suffering some food and water and while she was eating I double tapped her with a Plus P law enforcement only loading 9mm from a Glock 17. The dog let out a howl and ran up the side of a mountain where we could not get to her and whimpered for about two hours before she died.....
The next day, I took my Glock to a gunshop and traded it in for a Colt Combat Commander in .45 acp.
Here is the kicker. This was not a big "dangerous" dog, but a medium sized female that was not even aggressive.
I figured if it would not stop a medium size dog with a passive nature, it would not do much for a good size crook with an attitude....:barf:

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by Jack Malloy

Its funny. I was just telling my local police chief about my first Colt Combat Commander last night.
Years ago, working industrial security I had to shoot our guard dog to put it down, after some drug addled trucker shot her in the head with a .25 auto.
I gave the dog which was suffering some food and water and while she was eating I double tapped her with a Plus P law enforcement only loading 9mm from a Glock 17. The dog let out a howl and ran up the side of a mountain where we could not get to her and whimpered for about two hours before she died.....

Jack,

What a shame you didn't think of tying her up before you shot her. The poor dog had to suffer 2 long hours before she died. :barf: Where the hell did you double tap her by the way? Do you think you could have taken the poor dog to the vet instead of finishing her off? Hell, if she was eating, she probably didn't feel that bad. I willing to bet that she could have survived the .25 auto.

If I was really forced to put a dog down, I would shoot it in the back of the head near the base of the skull. I would hope to have a more powerful gun on hand to do it as quickly and humanely as possible.

[IM_Lugger]

What the HELL is wrong with you? That’s just barbaric; the poor dog probably would’ve survived the .25 :barf:

[casingpoint]

The analysis here is misdirected. It must have been excrutiatingly agonizing to have heard your own gaurd dog wail for two hours before dying. Imagine what it was like for the dog, turned on by what she thought were her best friends.

However, if you have to listen to a perp howl for two hours while he dies, well, that probably isn't going to be nearly as bothersome.

Caliber isn't as important in human targets as for animals. A shotgun is the most humane way under field conditions to euthanize dogs. Or perps.

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by casingpoint

Caliber isn't as important in human targets as for animals. A shotgun is the most humane way under field conditions to euthanize dogs. Or perps.

Who cares how humane it is when it comes to euthanizing perps. I think poor decisions should hurt... especially when the intentions are for hurting others. While I truly believe there are a few innocent people on death row, I believe that most of those convicted are guilty of their crimes. I have served on several juries and it is incredibly hard to convict someone. Too many bleeding heart liberals that can't be convinced "beyond a shadow of a doubt". Frankly, I feel that scumbag murderers, rapists, and child molesters should suffer for their crimes. I'm sure prision is is no picnic but I doubt it is anywhere near the hell their victims experienced. The whole "no cruel and unusual punishment" seems unfair when you think of the victim. Unfortunatley, most people spend so much time in prision that most people forget about the actual victims of the crimes. Did those criminals give that courtesy to their victims? I really doubt it. Give 'em hell!

[lil_bro]

Ok update on the really big canine THING we got the flim 1 hr developed today and all the most all the pics are of a doe standing in front of the game cam.The rest the pics were the cam taking a pic with nothing in front of it.


Michael.

[SIGLOCKAUR]

O.k. dog anatomy 101. Dogs are related to the bear family. Their skulls are very thick and their brain floats in a medium that acts as a sort of shock absorber. The skull is also very angular. A dog charging you presents a very small target. The angle of the head can very easily cause any handgun round to deflect.
Top that of if you have a dog that is alot of fighting spirit (especially a big dog)protecting it's territory you've got a problem. Wound it and it knows it's in a fight for it's life you've got a problem. In spite of all the one shot stop b.s.. If you get a human enraged, mentally disturbed, or on drugs it often takes many pistol or sometimes even rifle rounds to put the person down. And bullets do bounce off peoples noggins sometimes. Read Jim Cirillos book and it will surprise you. Your simply expecting too much from handgun rounds. None of them are great at stopping anything. They are used for their portability. Not because they are particularly effective. Any of my LEO friends at the range when they know they are facing a dog before hand grab a rifle or shotgun if they can. Stop believeing that handguns are cannons. It doesn't matter how many rounDs it took to stop the animal. Alls that matters is that it did. The same with a human. God forbid if you ever have to shoot someone are you going to stop at 1-2 bullets if they don't go down with that many rounds? Or are you going to Shoot till they go down? Are you really going to care how many rounds it took? If it's 1 or 15 if the gun saveS your life it's done it's job. The .45 is not a death ray. it probably wouldn't of put the animal down any faster. When things go bump in the night if I've got time I grab my shotgun. My pistol is back-up.

[Bud Helms]

Well said, SIGLOCKAUR.

Stop believeing that handguns are cannons. ... Your simply expecting too much from handgun rounds. None of them are great at stopping anything. They are used for their portability. Not because they are particularly effective. ... The .45 is not a death ray. it probably wouldn't of put the animal down any faster. When things go bump in the night if I've got time I grab my shotgun. My pistol is back-up.

I have to say this post strikes a note with me.

I notice an ongoing theme in this forum and others that is more common than it used to be: attempts to quantify and predict with certainty every aspect of cartridge/handgun performance, as if it could be. As a handloader, I can appreciate the quest for knowledge. And it's nearly irresistable to think of your own choice of weapon as the choice that makes sense. It's also very human to rationalize your choice after you've made it.

But in this thread, we're talking about a situation that is pretty much determined by your reaction and whether you're armed at all. A small change in the angle of projectile approach or a slight change in point of impact can make a big difference in terminal performance on target, especially bone mass. Now if that target is a stationary, flat piece of paper, then we can make better predictions.

[lil_bro]

So I guess basically it means that a handgun will work but is not the best thing you could have.And too quote someones signature(don't remember whos)

"The point of a pistol and too fight your way back too your rifle that you never should have put down."

I think thats how it went.


Michael.

[Jack Malloy]

Uh, no....
I don't think two of you guys understand some basic things.

This dog had a .25 caliber bullet in its brain and had been suffering for about four hours.


I couldnt just drive off the property AT MIDNIGHT and take the dog to a vet, the nearest one being about 50 miles away, period. When you work industrial security there has to be somebody on the spot 24 hours a day seven days a week. Leaving your post is a firing offense. I worked that job for 8 years because it was ALL THAT WAS TO BE HAD in that county. Unfortunately I was not related to anybody in political office and eastern Ky is all about nepotism...which is why I moved away in 2001.
Number two, there is no vet in the region on call at MIDNIGHT.
The guard I releived told me to destroy the dog, as some @$$head trucker shot her and then she left.
What would you do? remember, there was nobody else to come out so I could drive to the nearest city where the vet clinic would not open till 8 p.m. some eight hours later. What would you do smart guys?
In the years I worked there nobody EVER came out to relieve somebody else at the drop of a dime because they just did not pay well, and we had nobody to draw upon.
If I had a nickel for every time I got stuck working a double or triple shift because somebody quit, I'd be toting a Mark 23, a Desert Eagle and a 93-r in the back of my Lincoln Navigator right now, instead of a Taurus in my Blazer...

Since I could not leave the post, the only thing left to do was shoor the poor dog. Which is why I fed her and tried to make her comfortable when I did it.
WHich is also why I double tapped her, once through the head and once thruogh the chest. I tried to make it as quick and painless as possible, because I was the only guy on that base who even bought food for that dog, out of pocket. It was a stray that we adopted. The client did not give us much to feed her.
We were told to keep her around because she was a good watch dog.
She ran straight UP a hillside (in the woods) and I could not get to her to finish her off.
I did not shoot the dog out of meaness. It was a feeble attempt at a mercy killing with a substandard cartridge to an animal with a seroius injury.
Who knew that a plus p plus "police only" loading would be such a wimpy round? This was a freaking hotload that civillians COULD NOT EVEN BUY.
I knew from talking to my dad, who was a cop that a typical medium size dog can soak up a whole cylinderful of .38 specials, but I was dumb enough to beleive some gun rag BS about how the 9mm was "close to" the .357 magnum in performance because it had 3/4ths the chamber pressure.

And I had to sit there feeling like a [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] listening to her howl till she finally bled out. That was hard enough to deal with without some sob sister bleeding heart second guessing me over it years later.

The reason I share this painful anecdote is that I dont want one of you guys to wind up having to shoot some 300 pound outlaw biker and be surprised when it just makes him howl in anger....and it doesn't stop him.


I have heard of back seat drivers. Who knew there were backseat shooters.




>>
What a shame you didn't think of tying her up before you shot her. The poor dog had to suffer 2 long hours before she died. Where the hell did you double tap her by the way? Do you think you could have taken the poor dog to the vet instead of finishing her off? Hell, if she was eating, she probably didn't feel that bad. I willing to bet that she could have survived the .25 auto.>>>

[aminyard]

gdeal hit the nail on the head. The minimum round for defense/police use should be the .357 mag or the 40 S&W. Just look up the ballistics of the rounds. The 9mm was (wrongly) selected by politcions, not soldiers or cops. At least they have come to their senses and are going back to the .45ACP.

[mikejonestkd]

Jack,

You did the best you could do in a difficult situation. Armchair quarterbacks can always second guess all they want.

You made a difficult decision and I know it would have been equally difficult for anyone of us to have to do too.

Don't lose any sleep over what a few people think, the " would have, could have, should have " people should back off.