9mm. vs. rottweiler

[Anthony2]

Jack,

You did the best you could do in a difficult situation. Armchair quarterbacks can always second guess all they want.

You made a difficult decision and I know it would have been equally difficult for anyone of us to have to do too.

Don't lose any sleep over what a few people think, the " would have, could have, should have " people should back off.

Well said. +1 for that.

[IM_Lugger]

The 9mm was (wrongly) selected by politcions, not soldiers or cops. At least they have come to their senses and are going back to the .45ACP.

oh really?

For Immediate Release
May 15, 2006

BERETTA 9mm PISTOLS PASS SEVEN CONSECUTIVE MILITARY TESTS WITH RECORD PERFORMANCE

Deliveries ahead of schedule on contracts for over 34,000 pistols to U.S. Military

Accokeek, Md. - Beretta USA has passed a seventh consecutive military test for delivery of the Beretta 9mm Model 92FS pistols to the U.S. Army (military designated M9).

In late 2005, the U.S. Army, on its own behalf and on behalf of other branches of the Armed Forces, such as the U.S. Air Force, placed contracts with Beretta U.S.A. to buy new Beretta 9mm 92FS pistols and parts. These contracts also allow the U.S. Military the option to buy up to a total of 70,000 92FS/M9 pistols through 2010. Formal testing of the newly ordered pistols began in early 2006.

"The results of the new tests are outstanding," noted E. Scott Blackwell, Beretta U.S.A.'s Division Manager - Manufacturing & Vice President, Law Enforcement/Defense Group. "When Beretta pistols were ordered by the Armed Forces throughout the late 1980s and early 1990s, they averaged one malfunction in every 17,500 rounds fired, which was believed at the time to be a world record for reliability in a semiautomatic pistol. These new pistols, which are mostly comprised of standard, off-the-shelf parts, are breaking that record. During government witnessed testing of these new pistols, we have averaged only one malfunction every 21,000 rounds fired."

Beretta USA has been continuously manufacturing the 92FS/M9 pistols since 1988 at its U.S. headquarters in Accokeek, Maryland. “All 325 employees here in our Maryland facility where the pistols are manufactured, assembled and tested, are proud to continue to provide this sidearm to our American military personnel” stated Blackwell.

The US made 92FS/M9 pistol has been purchased and deployed worldwide by thousands of law enforcement and military agencies and services worldwide, including most recently the Iraqi Ministry of Defense, Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department and, in its advanced M9A1 configuration with integral light rail and, enhanced tactical features, the US Marine Corps.

[Don H]

http://www.thnt.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...605170419/1001

Pit bull attacks; shot by police

Excerpt:

The 9-month-old male dog, shot twice by an officer with a .45-caliber gun, took off wounded, police said. The dog returned home around 9 p.m., and authorities took it to the hospital, police said. The extent of the dog's injuries were not known last night.

Shot placement is critical, no matter the caliber.

[Jammer Six]

Shot placement is critical, no matter the caliber.

Center mass is what's taught, and there's a reason for that.

Shot placement is a goal, not a strategy.

As a strategy, it bleeds.

[22tinkerer]

When I was 13 i was vacationing in a remote rurul part of upstate NY..We where on a 20 acre plot far from anywhere with no phone and no electricity.. I had some of the best times off my life there..I learned to drive, ride and shoot..wild dogs where a big problem there then...I had a run in with a pack off wild dogs who upon seeing me immediately chased me and jumped in the jeep I was driving. I climbed on the hood and proceeded to dump round after round of 45acp into them , I could see fur flying out the other side of these animals. Not one yelp or cry but after emptying me uncles 1911 the leader took off and the rest followed..We later found that dog dead about 100 yards away along with a number of bood trails.It was without a doubt one of those "i think i crapped my pants" moments...Years later a neighbor of mine was attacked by a pitbul...I beat this thing for 5 minutes with an aluminium basebat before it finally took off...In my experience, it aint like the movies..By the way iam a dog lover...i have completely spoiled my dogs but they are just so sweet i can't help it. They look scarry but all of them were raised right and just want to love or be loved..

[VUPDblue]

Quote:
For Immediate Release
May 15, 2006

BERETTA 9mm PISTOLS PASS SEVEN CONSECUTIVE MILITARY TESTS WITH RECORD PERFORMANCE

Deliveries ahead of schedule on contracts for over 34,000 pistols to U.S. Military

Accokeek, Md. - Beretta USA has passed a seventh consecutive military test for delivery of the Beretta 9mm Model 92FS pistols to the U.S. Army (military designated M9).

In late 2005, the U.S. Army, on its own behalf and on behalf of other branches of the Armed Forces, such as the U.S. Air Force, placed contracts with Beretta U.S.A. to buy new Beretta 9mm 92FS pistols and parts. These contracts also allow the U.S. Military the option to buy up to a total of 70,000 92FS/M9 pistols through 2010. Formal testing of the newly ordered pistols began in early 2006.

"The results of the new tests are outstanding," noted E. Scott Blackwell, Beretta U.S.A.'s Division Manager - Manufacturing & Vice President, Law Enforcement/Defense Group. "When Beretta pistols were ordered by the Armed Forces throughout the late 1980s and early 1990s, they averaged one malfunction in every 17,500 rounds fired, which was believed at the time to be a world record for reliability in a semiautomatic pistol. These new pistols, which are mostly comprised of standard, off-the-shelf parts, are breaking that record. During government witnessed testing of these new pistols, we have averaged only one malfunction every 21,000 rounds fired."

Beretta USA has been continuously manufacturing the 92FS/M9 pistols since 1988 at its U.S. headquarters in Accokeek, Maryland. “All 325 employees here in our Maryland facility where the pistols are manufactured, assembled and tested, are proud to continue to provide this sidearm to our American military personnel” stated Blackwell.

The US made 92FS/M9 pistol has been purchased and deployed worldwide by thousands of law enforcement and military agencies and services worldwide, including most recently the Iraqi Ministry of Defense, Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department and, in its advanced M9A1 configuration with integral light rail and, enhanced tactical features, the US Marine Corps.

That's great for Beretta, but has nothing to do with 9mm as a cartridge. I carry a .40 or .357, but I have carried a 9mm on occasion. If that is what I have then that is what I use. The way I look at it is, I wouldn't stand in line to get shot with a 9mm if my other choice was a .40. I'm pretty sure I'd be dead either way. And since carrying 00buck isn't practical, be prepared and be accurate with whatever you are carying. If you carry a 9mm shoot till it stops. If you carry a 500 S&W Mag shoot till it stops.

[johnsonrlp]

One of my former coworkers shot an insurgent the other day with 2 three round bursts from his A2 to the chest from about 50 yards away. The bad guy just turned and started running away. It took another burst from an M249 to finaly bring him down about 75 yards out.

So for those of you who have chosen the M16-A2 as your means of personal defense...AIM AT THE FRICKING HEAD. Sorry I just couldn't help thinking about my buddy getting waxed.

[VUPDblue]

correct me if I am wrong, but don't the M16A2 and the M249 both utilize the same 5.56mm cartridge? That means to me that the A2 is not inferior to the '249, just able to put more rounds on target with the '249.

[johnsonrlp]

correct, unless you're using m16 mag in the 249 (don't always have belted when you want it), and are fast with your 3rnd bursts. for sustained fire the 249's barrel swapping is really nice

shot placement, how many people have died from .22's? I wouldn't mess with an acomplished marksman and his .22.

[johnsonrlp]

I read about a guy back in Tulare County that got shot while robbing a gas station. The clerk took a good deal of his face off with a .45. He was in ICU for awhile but lived.

One well placed shot?

There is no magical round for personal work. How long were .22 Deringers carried for personal defense? .45's and 9mm's both will do their jobs if used correctly.
Personaly I'm shopping for a 357sig... It's a good flexable round

Of course you could always mount a 30mm Avenger on the back of your car

[VUPDblue]

but two of those would look silly...

[johnsonrlp]

I carry two 50 megaton Nukes, the 25's just don't go bang enough for me

[Shorthair]

Back before I got the "Gospel" and bought myself a .45, I was known to carry my TZ-75 in 9mm quite a bit around the property and points in between. Once, after taking out about 8 inches of a doe's spine with my 7 mag, I had to walk down the hill to finish her off. Its kind of hard to miss a paralyzed animal, so it wasn't too much to ask to put a 115 grain hardball into the brain from about 5 feet away, ear-to-ear. Like flipping off a switch.
This was a coup de gras, not a shoot-to-stop, so I think there's a difference in minimal required power level. Probably would have been just as quick if I had used a .22 Ruger. Key was knowing where the brain sits in the skull. Its too easy to blame the tool for the fool's errors.
Now a charging Rott? In that case I'm thinking if I can't hit it precisely, I might as well hit it HARD. Thus, the move to the 1911, and the instant elevation to eternal bliss...

[AndrewD]

best way to stop a big dog is to wrap your left arm and hand real good with a coat or some other cloth and shove it in his face ,when he bites on it mace him or shoot him in the brain .works every time with out fail .

This is a dangerous statement, if it is taken seriously. With a dog already attached to your body (arm, wrapped in a coat!?), you are spraying a chemical agent not designed for canines at less than an arm's length from your face. There is a high probability that you will receive some of the spray in your face, at which point it will be very hard to remain on your feet. The last place you want to be is on the ground with an attacking dog. Giving up your arm to a dog is a bad choice to begin with, as it is very easy to be brought down when the animal has it.

[Topthis]

A fella that I trained Martial Arts with took a trip to Japan many, many years ago. He went to train with Mas Oyama at his Kyokushinkai School...pretty brutal friggin school if you ask me (lots and lots of full contact resulting in many broken bones and such). Any how, he said that one day, there were some bodyguard types learning to kill attack dogs...with real dogs (mostly Dobies and Sheppards and a bigass Wolfhound)!! One of the techniques was to let the dog bite down on the forearm and then quickly take your free arm and place it behind the neck of the dog and then push the bitten down arm forward at the same time pulling the free arm towards your body, thus snapping the dogs neck. Now, they were doing this with wrapped arms, but with the knowledge that they had to complete the technique quickly in real life or suffer severe damage to their arm. Crazy!

[AndrewD]

That's pretty intense. You would have to be pretty strong to break a muscular dog's neck that way. Your belly would take one hell of a shredding from the dog's nails, but if you could do it, it would be better than a missing face.

[106RR]

One of the reasons it is hard to stop a dog is that they have a much higher PO2 than humans. Almost all handgun cartridges (except the 22 Velo-Dog) were designed with humans in mind. PO2 is the percentage of oxygen dissolved in your blood. Dogs have about 40% higher PO2 than humans. This means that even when their lungs are blown out, they still have enough oxygen in their tissues to continue the fight. This same high PO2 is what enables them to pursue game animals like Mountain Lion.
The other major factor is that they don't know they are supposed to be dead. They seldom go into shock for psychological reasons as do humans. Many times a small bore bullet wound to the face sends humans into shock.

[DR9983M4]

"Unless you are willing to move up to .44 magnum or rifles - accept the fact that none of these little pistol calibres are going to be effective at stopping pretty much anything."

lol, you can't be serious. At close ranges a .45 ACP or 10mm is far more effective than a 5.56 mostly cause the smaller round, unless its a fragmenting or frangible caliber, is likely to just drill a 5.56mm hole through the target and keep going through walls until it hits brick or just runs out of steam. Animals and humans also respond differently. Humans are, in scale and comparison, some of the frangilest creatures on the planet. The adrenaline rush that animals can have while attacking is notoriously well known. You could shoot the dog numerous times, even with lethal shots but unless you hit it in the heart or a well placed headshot in the motor control, not sensory part of the brain it will not be lights out immediately because the fight or flight response is stronger in these animals. Still, 9mm is puny. Why so many forces, police and military, have abandoned the .45 ACP for an older and clearly weaker cartridge in pistols is beyond me. A .45 ACP may have made a difference, the cavities, permanent and temporary are larger with a .45 ACP meaning larger chance for disruption of vitals with greater chance for it to go into shock.

**understand all this coupled with the fact that I own a P11 9mm. I own it cause it was the smallest possible gun I could carry for outdoor activities like biking etc. without being too heavy and bulky. I only have it cause a 9mm is the strongest cartridge in a compact package above all the tiny pop gun calibers, .380 down, and is still better than no gun at all.

[45operator]

try a stoned out meth doper. four rounds .45acp ball to center chest. guy died of a heart attack due to meth overdose, not the gunshots.

[Moloch]

lol, you can't be serious. At close ranges a .45 ACP or 10mm is far more effective than a 5.56 mostly cause the smaller round, unless its a fragmenting or frangible caliber, is likely to just drill a 5.56mm hole through the target and keep going through walls until it hits brick or just runs out of steam.

I think you havent heard anything about permanent cavity.
A 5.56 (.223) bullet at 3100fp/s doesn't make a 5.56mm hole, it makes a permanent wound channel of 1.728''- calculated with the ballistic calculator. Standart (230 @ 810) .45ACP makes a 0.927'' wide permanent hole into the target.

Just interesting, even a .22magnum .224 @ 2000 makes a 1.120'' wide permament hole.

Calculated with beartooth bullets calculator: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/

[Jeepmark2005]

There are no guarantees in life. A certain caliber or magic bullet does not asure you an instant stop on any target. There are always variables. Carry the largest caliber you can hit with and shoot until you stop the threat. Practice practice practice. There have probably been bears stopped with BB guns and men who survived being hit with a tank round. If you look long enough you will find an exception.

[DR9983M4]

I think you havent heard anything about permanent cavity.
A 5.56 (.223) bullet at 3100fp/s doesn't make a 5.56mm hole, it makes a permanent wound channel of 1.728''- calculated with the ballistic calculator. Standart (230 @ 810) .45ACP makes a 0.927'' wide permanent hole into the target.

Just interesting, even a .22magnum .224 @ 2000 makes a 1.120'' wide permament hole.

Calculated with beartooth bullets calculator: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/

Actually I have, thanks for the meaningless lecture. Now let's correct what you've done wrong. Aside from having the completely wrong bullet design used for .223 (I've never seen a flat nosed .223, have you?) you are using the muzzle velocity out of a 20" barrel M16. Out of a 14.5" Barrel M4 the muzzle velocity is 2760 fps, not 3100 fps. Couple this with the shallow ogive of a .223, a "pointy" bullet, the permanent channel will be considerably smaller as there is a LOT more pressure on the smaller tip. A .45 or 10mm with a FMJ hard flat nose, similar to the bullet used to calculate cavities is like shoving a pool cue through someone. The .223 would be like driving a stilleto or ice pick through someone. The channel from the stilleto or ice pick will be a lot closer to the diameter of the bullet, where as the "pushing" rather than puncturing motion of the flat nosed pool cue causes more tearing of tissue. The .22 mag assessment is more accurate, your .223 is way off.
Now the 10mm
Wound channel diameter of 1.4" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .40", and a striking velocity of 1400 fps.
thats 1400 fps at about 50 yards, talk about smack down. Thats just with a FMJ.
There's a reason why subguns and shotguns are still the primary weapons for CQB and police work. They hit hard, leave big leaky holes, and at close quarters they do not over penetrate like rifle rounds.

[Moloch]

My datas may be wrong, but they give you an idea about the difference of a handgun and a rifle caliber.
Noone can calculate real life ballistics and bullet injuries.

You just posted some personal opinions, I came up with datas because personal opinions doesn't make any sense. Everyone has one, every opinion is different so they are useless.

[Socrates]

Wound cavity of .223.

.45 has a deep, straight channel.

There are other handguns that really do have a better chance of disabling. .475.500's come to mind. I like the S&W .500 Special, also known as the .500 JRH, using a 275 grain DPX bullet, at 1350 fps, from Corbon. A nice, BIG hole, expanded, but, with enough bullet weight and speed to penetrate sufficently.

There are now handguns that actually work on huge game animals, and, perhaps, even on a rottweiler. If you can drop a 1500 pound buffalo, with a 440 grain bullet, at 1000fps, in .500JRH, what would that do to a rott?

Jack Malloy: That HAS to be one of the sadest stories I've heard. I'd sure like to have shot the trucker. You did the best you could, in a bad situation. God Bless you, and the dog.

S

[leckie66]

shot placement is everything,the cal. just gives a little forgiveness for error