9mm. vs. rottweiler

[HorseSoldier]

+1 what Moloch said.

If little, underpowered 45 ACP or 10mm pistol rounds (which is exactly what they are once we start talking about rifles and carbines) were the ammunition of choice for close range shooting then I have to throw out the reality check issue again . . .

Why do people who do close quarters combat professionally generally prefer 5.56mm carbines? Some guys may toss out overpenetration, but equally or more important is the fact that even little varmint rounds put down bad guys more effectively than little pistol bullets.

[Moloch]

Socrates: .45 has a deep, straight channel.

Yes.

Slow and fat isn't always the best:
.45ACP 185Grain HP

.45ACP 230 Grain FMJ

.223rem 5.56


Sorry for that load of pics, but I had to show something interesting.



The permanent cavity made of pistol bullets are only as big as the expanded bullets!

[plom]

again again, every bullet in every caliber have failed at one time or another... some guys survive 3 shots with HP 45 ACP and some drops with one 22 LR bullet...
In my career I've used both 38 SP, 9mm and 45 ACP on the street and I've felt confident in every each of them. To have the magic bullet won't make you win the fight every time if you don't use your brain. To shoot on a live moving target is pretty different than shoot a paper target at 10 yards, so for me the discussion of how great is this or this caliber, that bullet or one other is bull****. Take the caliber you feel best with,use your brain and shoot it a lot. If one day you're forced to shoot with whatever you have in your hand, shoot untill the threath is down.
Few years ago, I was attacked by a german shepard while backpacking, all that I had on me was a colt woodsman 22 LR. It took 8 bullets to stop the dog, the situation was over. I could have used my carry 1911 A1 if I had it on me at this time, and it maybe will have droped the dog with only 1 or 2 shots, maybe not, but the result will have been the same.
The 9mm is still issued in many military units, and do his job as the 45 ACP do. The Israelian mossad still issue 22LR pistols as duty gun to some of his agents!

[Diggers]

Like Moloch showed with the pics. Cavitation is what makes a rifle more deadly. Its all about bullet speed, and pistol rounds just don't have it.
YET pistols have PLENTY of power to what is intended of them at intended ranges.

[Varmint Eviscerator]

While I am no expert and have no biased I would like to enter the fray
I have fired almost all these cartridges-and like almost all of em So-
Based on energy produced by these rounds I think its unfair to say the 9mm is not adequate. A +p+ 9mm has about the energy of a 45ac +p and two standard loads will have roughly the same energy ( 45acp=386ftlbs in cheap american ammunition and the 9mm will produce 380ftlbs)
A 30-06 is extremely powerful and I would never venture as far as to state that it is a poor stopper, you have to hit vitals or muscle so the bullet can expant, your bullet went though the chest cavity (IE a relatively empty place) and hit very little. And about the 9mm richocheting off the rotties skull:barf: No I dont think so, their skull is not much thciker then ours which, at its thickest point is roughly 1/4" thick.
Thats my argument
Chase

[lil_bro]

Originally Posted by Varmint Eviscerator

Based on energy produced by these rounds I think its unfair to say the 9mm is not adequate. A +p+ 9mm has about the energy of a 45ac +p and two standard loads will have roughly the same energy ( 45acp=386ftlbs in cheap american ammunition and the 9mm will produce 380ftlbs)

And you can get NATO loads(that are kinda cheap)for the 9mm that are 465ft-lbs but they are FMJ bullets.For HP bullets double tap has some loads that are 500ft-lbs(pretty close to the power of a .357)


Michael.

[Socrates]

It's not only about velocity, but bullet weight, and area.
So, you want to see what Foot-pounds of energy is on some of the guns I'm talking about?

Lets look at the 475 and 500's.
JRH .500 loads:
425 at 1350=1720 ft lbs
440 grain bullet at 1000 fps=977 ftlbs.

Hornady loads for
Ruger 480: 325 HP at 1350 fps=1,316 ft-lbs
.475 Linebaugh 400 grain XTP HP at 1300 fps=1,501 ft-lbs

My .510 Maximum loads:

525's at 1000 fps= 1,166 ft-lbs
525's at 1500 fps=2,624 ft-lbs

S&W .500 loads
"It will be initially available from Cor-Bon in three factory loadings: a 275-grain Barnes solid-copper HEX-Bullet hollowpoint with 1662 fps muzzle velocity and 1685 ft-lbs muzzle energy at a maximum average pressure (MAP) of 26,800 psi, a 400-grain Hawk Precision Jacketed Flat Point with 1676 fps velocity and 2492 ft-lbs energy at 46,500 psi MAP, and a 440-grain Cast Performance flatnose lead with 1625 fps velocity and 2578 ft-lbs energy at 49,500 psi MAP. These are Cor-Bon's initial nominal factory ratings using industry-standard 8 3/8-inch pressure barrels."
"It is particularly significant that even though the .500 S&W Magnum cartridge tops out at more than a ton and a quarter of muzzle energy, all the loads operate under 50,000 psi, which, incidentally, is significantly less than the 60,000 psi SAAMI-limit MAP for the smaller caliber .454 Casull. Some other energy comparisons are also helpful: The hottest current commercial 240-grain .44 Magnum factory load offers right at 1600 ft-lbs (Winchester's specifications from a 20-inch barrel); Hornady's .480 Ruger factory load yields 1315 ft-lbs; the .475 Linebaugh launches at about 1500 ft-lbs; the most powerful commercial .454 Casull load reaches 1925 ft-lbs. For all intents and purposes, that gives the new .500 S&W Magnum a top energy 34 percent greater than the next most powerful handgun cartridge in existence. In practical terms, there is no living target walking the earth that this load does not have the potential to bring down."

This is a bit inaccurate, since the .510 Maximum is essentially a .510 version of the same length case.

Suffice to say that these new, bigger, heavier bullets, DO have TREMENDOUS effect, both on penetration, and game. They hit like medium bore rifles, and, you can carry them on your hip.


http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun...103/index.html

Suffice to say that these rounds have, and will stop, 1600 pound Asian buffalo, huge Bison, hogs, etc. They've also worked on Cape Buffalo, bears, and just about anything else.

It's a brave new world in handguns..

S

Just for giggles, the 50 grain 3150 fps .223 round gives you 1,102 ft-lbs of energy. If we up the bullet weight to 120 grains, we get 2,654 foot- pounds, or, about equal to max loads with the 525 grain bullet, in .510 Maximum, or, S&W .500.

[Moloch]

@ Socrates

I thought we are talking about standart pistol & rifle bullets? 9mm ,45ACP, 40S&W and 223?
Revolvers are another story, sixguns shoot half-rifle half-handgun cartridges.

(BTW I love my .454casull, flat shooting, heavy bullets and almost rifle velocity )

525's at 1500 fps=2,624 ft-lbs

Ouch! And I thought I am kinda tough with my Super rehdhawk with 300 grains @ 1750

[Socrates]

1.6 inch cases are wonderful things.
Pretty much a .510 version of the S&W, or vice versa. Very powerful, and, kills on both ends.

Reason the gun was never benched was the owner had buffalobore load up 525's at 1550fps, IIRC. No one could shoot the gun accurately, and no rest will hold it.
I had the barrel cut down, big grips, read wider then stock for my hands, and I'm hoping I can hold on to it.
Keep in mind the recoil on the above load:
89 ft-lbs, at 44 fps. I'M NOT SHOOTING THOSE. I'll keep it at about 1000 fps, maybe 1100. The big bullets seem to kill far better then the little ones, and, they don't need the velocity. Seems the bullet weight and size, is what the bison, or asian buffalo noticed, not velocity. Can't get the
bullets moving fast enough out of a six gun to create hydrodynamic shock that would be noticed by a cape buffalo, or an animal that size. However, maximum for caliber bullets seem to be VERY effective, in the .475, and ,500's. Good news is it doesn't kill the shooter, too. Plus, the sound is more of a boom, rather then a high pitched, ear hurting, crack.

that said, this started as a killing a big, determined dog thread, and, I don't think it was reserved to service caliber weapons, just handguns. I was trying to point out that most of those are not adequate, or the ammunition is not designed for this event, for most service guns.

For this sort of problem, you need more penetration then most defense ammo is designed to give. As I said, 230 grain hollowpoints, at 1100 fps, in .45 Super MIGHT do the trick. My point in going to the 'big dogs', if you'll excuse a pun, is you really need a hunting round for dogs, at least a rott. So, .41 magnum, 45 Super, .44 magnum, 45 Long Colt/454 with ammunition designed with a tougher then human target in mind.

\"Ouch! And I thought I am kinda tough with my Super rehdhawk with 300 grains @ 1750 "

You are!

Just food for thought: Jack Huntington, the designer of the .500 JRH, firmly believes we are beating ourselves up with velocity and pressure, with no impact on game to justify the result. He's found, using max for caliber weight bullets, that they kill MORE effectively at 1000 fps, then they do at higher velocity. This with the .45, .475, .500, and 510. Also keep in mind that you are not immortal, and, like Jack, and a bit myself, you can really mess up your arms with handgun recoil. That 300 grain bullet might be just as effective on game at 1000-1200 fps, or, go to 345-360's at 1000 fps.

That said, I sure would like to see how fast I could get a DPX 275 grain bullet, in .475 Linebaugh moving. I think that would make an incredible self-defense round. Then common sense tells me 1000-1200 is plenty, and, I might still be able to hear, if I have to use it.
S

PS
I love dogs, and, if I had to shoot a rott, I'd try and find the owner, and put him down as well. Some of my fondest memories are doing security in a restaurant, during a blackout, and having a 125 pound, jet black rott, named Dax, with me. He was perfectly behaved, and, ahh, heck, I'll tell the story.

Somebody was shooting a gun, and, the police came down to make sure we were ok, since we had about 100 grand in food, money, and wine to protect. We couldn't see, so I was on point, with Dax, off lead, going to the door, and covered by about 3 guys, with AR-15's, and handguns backup. It was a police officer, and, he asked how we were doing.
I'll never forget the look, when he saw Dax, off lead. In the light, all you could see where his front 4 canine teeth. He was at alert, but, in control, with no leash. He was very cordial, and, went back up the hill. Dax did exactly what he was supposed to do.
That dog was VERY smart, very affectionate, and thought he was a lapdog. I like dogs more then I do most people. Shoot the owner, not the dog.

[chadwick76]

that's why the law enforcment agencies in my state swithched to 40 s&w, their were too many incidents nationwide where 9mm just wasn't enough!

chadwick76
keep on shooting!!

[cje1980]

lol, you can't be serious. At close ranges a .45 ACP or 10mm is far more effective than a 5.56 mostly cause the smaller round, unless its a fragmenting or frangible caliber, is likely to just drill a 5.56mm hole through the target and keep going through walls until it hits brick or just runs out of steam.

Keep dreaming buddy. At close range, nothing beats an AR-15 for firepower and tactical practicality. The 5.56 round is only effective at close range. At longer ranges it does exactly what you say, it just punches a needle hole through the target. At close range it fragments vilolently and detaches and displaces a lot of tissue. It basically creates a wound channel about as wide as a football. I would not want to be shot at close range with an AR-15. Handgun rounds rely much more on psychological factors for stopping an attacker. Rifle rounds are much better at actually physically stopping an attacker. Also keep in mind that the 5.56 round has about 3X the energy of the 45ACP. When TSHTF, I would want a 12ga shooting 00 or 000 buck shot. That is about the only thing guaranteed to put somebody or something down with a proper shot. A rifle would be my next choice. A handgun would be on me but not the first thing that I would use. Sometimes a handgun is the only thing that is practical to carry though, so we must stick with what we have.

[Socrates]

I guess you missed it. There are now handguns, .500 JRH, .475 Linebaugh, .510 Maximum, that hit with the same impact, and effect, on large game, as a 375 H&H rifle. My gunsmith, Jack Huntington, has this obsession with testing his handgun cartridge designs on big game, and, I mean up to 12,000 pounds. He's going after elephants, and cape buffalo, in 2008. Meanwhile, he's only taken 1600 pound asian buffalo, bison, and, beefalo, a cross between angus beef, and bison, with his guns. From his observations, they drop game like a 375, and, he's got one to compare it to.

My .510 Linebaugh Max will near triple the .223 in close range energy, punching a giant hole, and, expanding, if the right bullet is used. .223 is around a 1000 ftlbs energy, .510 max, max loads, 2600ftlbs, with an expanding, .510 caliber, 525 grain bullet.

Prior, I would agee, that for real game, a rifle is the only answer. Now, these heavy single actions are in a whole new world, and, the 475 Linebaugh is where it starts.

Prior, I had used my 375 H&H for an under the bed gun.
At point blank range, the only shooting record I found blew the guys arm off, and the bad guy died of blood loss.
Now, I feel fairly comfortable with big bullets, in single action .475 or .510.
At close range, if you think the .223 is the ultimate rifle, how about the 375, with a light bullet, like a 220 grain hollow point, at 3100 fps, or, a 270 grain, at 2800 fps?

One day, I'm going to have a double, .458, or Nitro Express, .450, for a self defense home gun. Nothing beats huge, 500 grain slugs, at 2150. Those little bullets just don't get it.
S

[Moloch]

One day, I'm going to have a double, .458, or Nitro Express, .450, for a self defense home gun. Nothing beats huge, 500 grain slugs, at 2150. Those little bullets just don't get it.
S

I totally agree with you, bigger bullets just do it better.....BUT I think 3 or 4 good hits with a small caliber (Talking about .357mag or .40S&W) will do the same thing like a big bore. Killing.

[Harley Quinn]

I really like 9 mm for the penetration factor. I think a couple of hits in the head and neck area are much better then the body. Or next would be the Pelvis area.
Now for the big arguement.

I remember an officer shooting a big horse in the body to kill it. Stupid. Head shot no problem. 9 mm penetrating fool.

Not the best all around? I am not so sure about that. 40 cal 165 would be my next choice. To many people can not shoot the 45 well.

Shoot something you can hit what you are aiming at. If you are a good shot and can hit what you are aiming at all the above will do fine. IMHO

HQ

[Socrates]

"I totally agree with you, bigger bullets just do it better.....BUT I think 3 or 4 good hits with a small caliber (Talking about .357mag or .40S&W) will do the same thing like a big bore. Killing."

Don't think you get that much time. Trainer I knew had to put down a 80-100 pound boivier. Kind of the sheep dog from hell, it would attack, head bobbing and weaving like Arron Pryor, a pro boxer, and was VERY hard to keep off.

The reason I bring up the .458, is, on big game, you need something that hits hard enough to knock them off their feet. They get right back up. But, that gives you the time to aim, and finish, with the second barrel. I don't think any of the discussed rounds, unless they start with .44 magnum, and go up, would do that to a rott, but, I love dogs, so I haven't shot many, or any, and, I don't know anyone else that has.

I imagine the same guns used on deer would probably work the same on dogs, with similar effects. Or, are dogs tougher, and more like hogs? Don't really know.

S

[CobrayCommando]

I haven't read this entire thread, though I reckon its devolved into the usual rubbish. All I have to say is that rottweilers are much tougher then humans and can power on after being hit in lungs and heart with multiple shotgun slugs.

Though I can't say I like the 9mm I wouldn't call this indicative of its regular performance. Besides, who knows where the other shots went.

[Socrates]

"I haven't read this entire thread"
So the rest of your comments are out of context to the discussion at hand. I didn't read the rest of your post, either.

S

[Harley Quinn]

Known nasty pitbull at the perps location. First guy through the door carried a 12 gauge pump 00 buckshot 12 shot, at about 1350 fps .30 caliber.

Dog charged, was big for a pit over 65 pounds, stopped it cold and dead.
Bikers dog who had it trained to kill, a mean one.

I have seen many dead humans by the 12 gauge, dogs and other things.
Not a bad choice for an all around weapon. Problem is the background needs to be well considered.

I Like the way the Marine Corps taught in the early 60's 4 man teams.
Fire teams they covered each other and not everyone had the same thing.

In the streets of the cities it is a different thing, but very similar, just have to be careful of your back ground.

I am still a fan of the 9 for most of the depts. They say the 40 is now the weapon of choice for law enforcement, and I just read the 45 is going back into the service big time. It is in the Rifleman (august issue).

The best thing you can do is practice and be aware and ready. What do they say to fighters in the ring "protect yourself at all times".

Never get out of your vehicle without your baton, good flashlight and your service weapon. Don't eat donuts, and say your prayers before going to bed.

HQ