Why the difference in murder rates between Europe and US?

[Ben Swenson]

I am not an expert on law in the US and I am not completely familiar with the constituition of the US. If I am not mistaken, the second amendment of the constitution was written for giving certain security to the former enemies after the end of the civil war in the US.

You're correct ... you aren't an expert on US law.

The Second Amendment was enacted long before our civil war. Try again.

For instance, if a hungry or sick person borrows money from a rich person and takes obligation to pay an unreasonably high interest rate, such a contact don't have a legal power even if signed by both parts.

Really? Well then, if I were a "rich person", I'd sure as heck not loan money to a hungry or sick person if any contract would be null and void.

In Europe most people feel that it is a question of freedom when they have the right to organize general welfare systems which include everybody, even those who have not voted for it but who accept the democratic procedures. In the states such a situation is probably felt as a limitation of the individual's freedom if he/she must participate in the collective welfare system.

*laugh* MK, if I wanted to get together with a group of friends and create a "General Solidarity Fund of Happiness and Rainbows" where everyone pays money in and can withdraw if they need it, I could do that. No one here would stop me. But you, on the other hand, say true freedom is me getting together with a bunch of my friends and going door to door telling people that they are required to contribute to my "General Solidarity Fund of Happiness and Rainbows". And if they don't I'll burn their home down and stomp on their kittens.
This is true freedom to you?

You're an odd one, Mr./Miss/Mrs. Kitty.

[Tamara]

Have you ever been to Switzerland, Austria, Croatia, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Holland? Practically nobody, excluding criminals, bears weapons or owns weapons.

That's a giggle.

Gun ownership rates in Switzerland, Austria, Finland and Norway are all pretty close to America's.

Switzerland, in point of fact, requires men of military age to keep a government-issued automatic rifle and ammunition in their homes.

Have you ever been to some of these places?

(Hint: send private messages to TFLers mussi, Gunter and UltimaThule for details on gun ownership laws and rates in Schweiz, Osterreich or Norge. It will help your credibility to have more accurate information.)

[Metallic Kitty]

Hi T.Stahl,

I guess that you have a better chance to defend your life by running away from an aggressive gang than my trying to shoot them. But, of course, you are too proud to run, you have to fight (and you will probably loose, don't you agree?). It is not a question if people should be free (even free to bear guns) or not. The question is how to obtain such a society where we will not need to have our guns with us in our pockets when we are sitting in our homes, walking on our streets or buying gasoline at a gas station. I understand from your correspondance that you mean that freedom to bear guns has nothing to do with the general security in the society, with murder statistics etc. I am not sharing your opinion, I will continue to learn about the subject. Presentely, I am located in a country with much higher general security for the citizens than in the US. That gives me one indication that the laws related to gun possession could have influences on general use of the weapons in the society.

Somebody has mentioned that even in Switzerland people have the right to own guns and even in some other countries of Europe. But still, the murder frequencies are not high. It is another kind of access to weapons in Switzerland and other countries of Europe than in the US. The minds of people relevant to the weapons are different in the EU and the US. In combination with different social welfare systems and different general traditions all this makes the guns used under different frequencies in the New and in the Old world.

Weapons don't kill people. People kill people.

[mnealtx]

MK-

I HAVE lived in Croatia and Bosnia, and there ARE weapons carried there. Not a large amount but certainly not a small amount either.

Now, back the the question.... since the EU has not dissolved the national boundaries of the member nations, which MEMBER NATION of the EU are you a citizen of? I feel that I should warn you that your refusal to say which country you live in is rapidly making you seem more and more of a troll....

[Metallic Kitty]

Hey there Dave Bean, nice to meet you.

I am a 16 year old girl living inside a major population center in Europe. Since I am 16 years old I cannot go to university yet. Good try. Concerning my parents, you are correct, they are well-educated. I am natural science oriented student. I don't understand what you mean with independent films so I can't answer that one, sorry. Dissapointed?

You say that if weapons dissappear people will find other ways to damage each other. In my opinion, the access to weapons has am influence on the frequency of use of these devices. So, if the weapons would dissappear, the frequency of murders and other types of killings would decrease. For me, it is a sufficient reason for making efforts to decrease the access to weapons in the society.

Answer to your question:

If you like to look at your weapons and polishing them, why not do so? I do not think however that your guns are increasing your personal security. If you meet a gang trying to rob you, you will have a better chance to survive if you are not armed than if you are. An advice, as I gave to someone else too on this thread, run like hell.

[Metallic Kitty]

What socialism are you talking about? I have no experience of living in socialism so I cannot comment your points of view.

[Metallic Kitty]

Dear Don Gwinn,

Thanks for the compliments. In Europe it is quite usual that people speak multiple langauges. English is actually one out of 5 languages that I fluently speak. I have an EU passport so, isn't it then clear that I am an EU citizen?

[Metallic Kitty]

I agree that Belgium and Holland are nice countries.

[Zak Smith]

MK-

The living environment for the citizens in a normal country which is not in war should be generally secure.

It is generally secure here, of course. On average, you are very safe. But still there is the 6/100,000 murder rate and 25 violent crime victimizations per 1000 [ http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/cv01.txt ]. That rape is "rare" is cold consolation if you're the one being raped.

The vast majority of people are peaceful and nonviolent, but there is that very low percentage of wackos out there - in any society - that will attempt to wreak havoc on the rest of us. Be prepared.

European statistics show that the best defense in such situations is to run like hell.

And what if you can't run? What if your child can't run? What if you're in your own house?

Of course, mr. Cowboy, you mean that I am a coward.

I neither said nor implied that. However, I do think it's foolish to believe one's self to be immune to violent crime. It happens.

-z

[Metallic Kitty]

Without having relevant statistics I suppose that violence problems on the American streets are not caused by suicides.

Thanks for reading the extensive texts in the subject

[Metallic Kitty]

Hello Jato,

I see that you have done a little bit of research into my favourite band and I see that you are very interested.

Unfortunately, the date given by you is just a coincidence. I am not Japanese since I am a born European.

And okay fine, I am not 16 yet but I will be on the 19th of November this year.

Sayonara.

[Halo]

By asserting that guns should be banned, by implication you are saying to everyone who has ever used a gun in self-defense "you should not have had that gun". The only conclusion one can draw from that is that the person should have suffered whatever fate the criminal would have otherwise dealt them.

Can you genuinely tell someone who saved their own life by use of a firearm that they should, instead, have been disarmed? If not, does it alter your position at all?

The matter of private gun ownership is actually quite simple. Everyone has a right to defend themselves. You have this right because you exist, not because some government (an artificial institution) "granted" it to you.

For many people, the gun is the most feasible tool for that end, unless you can propose a superior alternative for a hypothetical petite female 5ft tall and 100lbs (~45kg) against a large male attacker. Running is not always an option, and in many cases one cannot wait 10+ minutes for the police to arrive.

[Metallic Kitty]

From a psychological point of view, it is more probable that you will use the gun you are carrying than that you would fire if you didn't have a gun at all. The simply truths are the best truths. We Europeans aren't better than the people in the US but we don't have access to weapons so we don't use weapons (at least not as much as you).

[Zak Smith]

Somebody has mentioned that even in Switzerland people have the right to own guns and even in some other countries of Europe. But still, the murder frequencies are not high.

Switzerland has a very homogenous population, and a society and structure of government that has been stable for a many hundreds of years. Surely has an effect.

In my opinion, the access to weapons has am influence on the frequency of use of these devices. So, if the weapons would dissappear, the frequency of murders and other types of killings would decrease.

How about if you cite several published, peer-reviewed research papers that support your view? I have posted such references to support the assertion that "legal concealed carry reduces the violent crime rate."

Presentely, I am located in a country with much higher general security for the citizens than in the US. T

Haven't we already shown that the murder rate between the US and the EU is equivalent?

English is actually one out of 5 languages that I fluently speak.

There is a difference between the word "loose" and "lose" you might want to note.

If you meet a gang trying to rob you, you will have a better chance to survive if you are not armed than if you are.

Why?

But, of course, you are too proud to run, you have to fight (and you will probably loose, don't you agree?).

If you cannot run for whatever reason, do you honestly believe you'll fair better if you have no weapon, vs. having one of the most effective self-defense tool available?

If you're all alone and a couple guys come up behind you, say they want to "have a little fun" as they pull out a knife, do you really want no weapon?

Most women I've asked this question say, "Hell yes, give me a handgun!"

-z

[Metallic Kitty]

Guten Tag, Hello, Hej, Bonjour, Hola, Ciao, Priviet, Czesc, Zdravo, God Dej etc.

Actually I am greeting people on their languages if I know how to do so...keep your eyes open for that

[Zak Smith]

MK-
Just what does this mean?

From a psychological point of view, it is more probable that you will use the gun you are carrying than that you would fire if you didn't have a gun at all.

So, let me get this straight:

1. If I have a gun, and I am being attacked, and I am in danger of death or grave bodily injury, and I shoot the attacker, then I have fired the gun.

2. If I don't have a gun, and I am being attacked, and I am in danger of dealth or grave bodily injury, and I die at his hands, then I haven't fired a gun ('cause I didn't have one and now I'm dead).

Do I have this right?

What the heck is that supposed to prove?

-z

[TallPine]

Kitty, welcome back!

I was afraid for a while that we had chased you up a tree and you were afraid to come back down.

1) When you started this thread, you asked why statistically there are more homicides in the US than in Europe, but you did not provide any actual statistics or sources. A number here have replied that statistics can be deceiving and have provided statistical data from respected sources that provide a deeper insight into the issue, and show that a small minority of our population are responsible for the vast majority of violent crime. You have responded with your “feelings” (valid for you, of course) and “guesses” that the homicide rate is directly linked to firearms ownership. Comparison between our individual states shows that is not the case. In Montana, for instance, we have an extremely high number of firearms per capita, and a low murder rate. Our latest murder conviction was for a killing with a ball-peen hammer.

2) You stated “The best thing to do would be to change that society so that people like you would not need to go shopping etc. with guns always ready to use.” First of all, you are making an assumption about if or when I carry, but secondly, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Now, do you have a REALISTIC suggestion as to how to change society, or more specifically that small portion of society that is responsible for the vast majority of violence?

The last time I checked, legislation hasn’t worked, or else our police and prosecutors would be as bored and lonely as the Maytag repairman. As far as social equality, we’ve been handing out increasing amounts of taxpayer’s money since the 1930’s, and all that we seem to have accomplished is to create a multi-generational welfare class that has little else to do but have babies, do drugs, and perpetrate violence. And I suppose you think that poverty is a reasonable motivation for sexual assault …. ?

If you have a surefire way to remove evil from the human heart, I sure wish you would share it with the rest of humanity.

In the meantime, I reserve the right to defend myself, my family, and my home. In many cases, you are right – the best defense is to just run. If you have read very many threads on TFL, you would know that “retreat” is legally required when possible in most jurisdictions. The chance of even being hit by an armed “bad guy” when you are running away is supposed to be about 4% - much better odds than surrendering. But there may be a time when you cannot run, and I refuse to run from my own home. Home invasions do occur, sometimes by a prison escapee who has nothing to lose. Many a criminal career has been terminated by armed and prepared home owners.

On top of everything else, our nation is under attack from Islamic terrorists. These attacks may occur anytime, anywhere, and in any conceivable or inconceivable manner. Don’t take my word for it, ask some guy named Bush who has stated that we are engaged in a “war on terrorism”.
“Do you need to defend yourself and protect your family by guns? In such a case you live in a society which is strange for me.”

In a word, “yes”. And the society is strange to me, too. In fact, the older I get, the stranger and stranger it seems to me. Our values have been turned upside down, and many of our leaders think they can protect us by making us defenseless.

[TallPine]

Kitty, you left out "Howdy!"

[Metallic Kitty]

Nobody will burn your house down if you don't want to participate in the general welfare system as defined by us in Europe. I don't know if it is known for you that the payments into the general welfare account are not done by the employees in question and these payments are not the employees taxes. The payments into the social welfare system are done by employers as a kind of duty. In fact, citizens are not paying onto the account of social welfare, that is done by the employers (in some European countries a part of these payments are paid by employees). In other words, a part of the payments onto the common welfare account are done by work-buyers (employers) and another part by work-sellers (employees). It is the general agreement in the societies in question, an agreement accepted by both work-buyers and work-sellers.

[Metallic Kitty]

Hi Tamara,
The Swiss men that are a part of the national self defense have weapons at home but those weapons are not in their ownership. Those weapons can be used only in war situations. That is something else than when your neighbour Mr. Bob Sue has a rifle under his bed which he bought last week in the neighbourhood gunstore.

[Metallic Kitty]

There are no borders between the national states of the EU - no more than between two states in the US. I understand that it is still difficult for many people outside of Europe to understand that the EU is a union of states having a common passport, currency, transnational securities and the right to work/educate/live/buy property anywhere in Europe they want. For me, you are an American and please accept that I am a European.

[Zak Smith]

Swiss men that are a part of the national self defense have weapons at home but those weapons are not in their ownership. Those weapons can be used only in war situations.

I'm pretty sure it is not true that they cannot use them. Swiss citizens who have issued military rifles can use them for target practice, etc.

Perhaps mussi could pipe in and give us the real story?

-z

[Metallic Kitty]

Of course, I understand that in all countries, and even in the US, it can be dangerous and ones security can be challenged in different ways: rape, murders, robberies etc. It is understandable that the single citizen will try to find ways to defend himself and his family from such backsides of civilised societies. It is not strange that people even buy weapons legally and/or illegally trusting that those can help them.

If the most part of the members in one society feel that they are arming themselves is in their interest, it is reasonable that they will organize such legal structures which will make it possible for them to be armed. Such a situation occurs in the US.

The general opinion is not following the American pattern. That's all for me.

[Metallic Kitty]

Well, in Europe we don't have guns and not as many murders as you have. Please comment.

[Seeker]

Hello Mkitty (can't greet you in your mother-tounge, as I don't know it )

Why do you list your Location as Hell? What is there about your safe and secure county, with the free education, health care and welfare that makes it hell? Or is Hell just a place in Norway?

An advice, as I gave to someone else too on this thread, run like hell.

I can't run. I busted up my ankle some years back and now I can't run - I can hobble quickly, but I don't think that will save me from attack. Rather it will just present my blind side to my attackers.