Bar room beating of a woman by off-duty LEO

[caleb]

Question gents, I'm sure everyone has seen the video of that small lady getting the hell beat out of her by the drunk LEO. In my state (FL) I believe if you are witnessing a felony such as rape, attempted murder, felony assault, you can intervene with deadly force. A 300lb man attacking with his fists a 120 lb woman in my opinion is close to attempted murder. If one of his blows hit the right spot on her head she would be dead. If one of the onlookers had shot and killed the fool would that be justified? I know it was a bar and no CCW are allowed in drinking establishments. With all the recent threads about situations we can use CCW I just though I'd ask on this issue. Thanks C

[EJJR]

Morally justified or legally justified? IMO, they are two different things sadly.

I'm still new to the law and firearms but from just watching the video I dont feel a lethal level of force would have been justified. Now if he said he was going to kill her or some such, that would be different. At least that could be morally justifiable.

As far as I know in most places it is illegal to carry a firearm in an establishment that primarily serves alcohol. so right off the bat, ones legal justification would be suspect.


That said, I wouldnt have just stood around and let the woman get pummeled eitherway, no matter that he is (was) an L.E.O that is twice my size.

IME, Baseball bats, batons, axe handles (and of course heavy bottles) are all commonly found in bars and would serve as a suitable implement for deadly force in such a scenerio. Personally I carry a folding pocket knife for such scenerios.

[Trip20]

I know watching the video makes us all angry. While watching the video I had a fleeting thought of wishing I had been there to put him in his place. We all hope this criminal pays the price, and I've got a feeling he will.

But when I read the original post, I got the impression we're beginning to look for reasons to justify shooting, rather than looking for reasonable responses, and that's just not acceptable.

The comments/questions sound as though they come from a mindset of, "I'd like to shoot him, would it be justified?"

I'm sure that's not really what the OP means, and caleb please don’t look at this post as being too accusatory... but then we need to be careful how we pose our questions so it can't be construed as such.

If you found yourself in a similar situation the law might allow you to use deadly force... but as EJJR mentions, it still might not be the Right thing to do and its important to keep this in mind at all times if you carry.

I believe we all have a responsibility to look for other ways to stop an attack if we so decide we will intervene. Be it physically by your lonesome, or by getting a few other patrons to intervene while one has 911 on the phone... there are plenty of other and often times better responses in between one extreme and the other.

[skeeter1]

Morally, I could justify shooting a BG (LEO or not). Legally, you'd be going to jail for having a firearm in a drinking establishment. Laws and morals don't always mix very well.

When I'm going for a night out, my "carry piece" is an Irish Blackthorn Shillelagh. It's legal anywhere (it's just my walking cane), and I think a firm whollup upside the head would get a BG's attention. Just my opinion.

[Musketeer]

IME, Baseball bats, batons, axe handles (and of course heavy bottles) are all commonly found in bars and would serve as a suitable implement for deadly force in such a scenerio. Personally I carry a folding pocket knife for such scenerios.

Any one of those are lethal force. You either can use lethal force or cannot use lethal force. You cannot use a little bit of lethal force because you cannot be only a little bit dead.

Assuming you are carrying in the establishment legally and are not impaired you are perfectly justified in orderring the criminal to cease his violent assault if you believe the victim is in danger of death or severe harm. 300 pounds of nut job against a 120 poind woman qualifies in my book. I would challenge and I would have the weapon out and at low ready. I would not apprehend, let the nut run off. I would also insist the cops be called.

This is not like involving yourself in a domestic. This is an employee being beaten, possibly killed, and probably robbed (as far as I know).

[TexiCali Slim]

just watching that other guy standing there not doing anything made me sick, there is a difference in not wanting to get into trouble and just being a coward.... Al the men in that bar were the latter.
I remember one time I was at a house party and I walked out front to have a cigarette and there was a group of people (mostly men) circling to watch a fight so I ( indulged myself) and walked up only to see some guy on top of his girlfriend slapping her and cussing her out. I immeadiatly pushed the guy off and told her to get in the house and BF to leave, her BF then got up and tried to fight me *see tried*. So I but a beating on him. After I beat up the BF all the guys around me started taking they're shirts off and threatening the guy. I called them all "In so many words" cowards for not doing anything from the beginning. It just made me sick.
This may be off topic but in said situation I thought you all would like to know that there are still a few of us punk kids that were brought up with morals and arent afraid to do the right thing just because they might get beat up by a bigger guy.

[EJJR]

Musketeer:

Caleb stated:

"If one of the onlookers had shot and killed the fool would that be justified?"


Lethal force, in certain circumstances, may be justifiable; depending on the impliment used and the laws concerning such in that jurisdiction.

So, by that, if someone shot a BG in a jurisdiction that prohibited firearms from such establishments, such a shooting, IMO, would not be justified.

But using an implement that are already commonly located on such premises, if not prohibited by law, would be easier to justify.

There are many more mitigating factors that could have a bearing on whether lethal force could be used justifiably.

As in the OP's reference, it is hard to make a conclusive decision w/o having all the facts. In that case I dont feel lethal force would be needed or warranted. If 3-4 of the males ( they are not "men" in my book) in that establishment had any decency it could have been handled w/o any need for lethal force.

[JDSnead]

Many of the posts on this subject overlook one thing: This Happened in Chicago! I believe it is illegal for any citizen to carry any concealed weapon there. Aren't certain weapons outlawed completely, too?

THis was also reported recently:

CBS) CHICAGO Investigators are trying to find out if someone intimidated a woman to keep quiet after being beaten, allegedly by an off-duty Chicago Police officer, in an attack that was caught on tape.

Anthony Abbate, a 12-year veteran of the Lincoln Police District on the North Side, has been charged with felony aggravated battery in the beating of Karolina Obrycka, 24, at Jesse's Shortstop Inn Tavern, at 5425 W. Belmont Ave.

Video shot by the tavern in February shows Abbate's attack on the woman, who is half his size, was so violent the bar itself shakes.

Obrycka's attorney, Terry Ekl, said the bartender had refused to serve Abbate any more drinks, prompting the attack.

On Thursday, Ekl said Obrycka had first been offered money to keep quiet about her story by someone associated with Abbate.

Later, Ekl claimed, the owner of the bar was also told that if she did not keep quiet about her story, drugs would be planted in the bar and in Obrycka's vehicle, and that customers at the bar would be harassed.


Interesting tactics that some Chicago police feel they can use against the virtually defensless!



My second point is that many have also stated that it is illegal to carry into a place serving alcohol. You should mention in your posting what jurisdiction you are referring to, because in Alabama, there is NO such restriction in the state law. (You cannot use a handgun to secure a mortgage, but that is another story!)

As a young buck, I've carried many times into a bar (and that is where I felt the need to MOST!). So a blanket statement about your locale's prohibitions is not necessarily valid.

My .02
JS

[Aikibiker]

Ignoring the various laws and the fact I wouldn't be caught dead in chicago. I might not have shot him, but he damn sure needed a pistol whipping.

[bdcochran]

Great Cesaer's Ghost. All these threads about when to shoot someone! Get real. Most people don't intervene. They also don't call the authorities.

How about a response like yelling: "I recorded you on my cell phone."

How about a response of using your cell phone to call the police?

Why do you have to have these threads about shooting someone - for the glory?

How about taking your beer bottle and throwing it at the guy to get his attention?

How about this folks? It was a cop! So, you shoot him and say he is also armed. What happens to you now if you haven't killed him.

Example 1. I walk into the hardware store where I know everyone. Two customers jump the clerk. I look to see if they are armed, whether I can escape and for a potential weapon. I run out the back door. Coward right? Yeah. Sure. And if I grappled with them, I would have been hurt. The cops were already on the way. Multiple guns in my car outside.

Example 2. A crowd is beating a cop. A bunch of cowards. They take his gun. I walk into the crowd and throw the people off and sling the UCLA cop over my shoulder and walk around the corner and deliver him to other officers. A solidly right wing conservative student watches and doesn't intervene. He later heaps praise on me - but he wasn't there for the cop when he needed help. People freeze. I knew this group of demonstrators were cowards and wouldn't attack me.

[brando]

LEO beating a woman, stay out of it , record with cell if can be done with out notice
Chicago, NOLA, INDY, Phily, LEO have there own rules
Interveine with out of controll LEO not me, cowardace? OK

[JohnKSa]

TX law does, under certain carefully defined circumstances, provide for the legal use of deadly force against an LEO. It wouldn't be sufficient justification that the LEO was beating the woman and might kill her. The primary justification has to do with whether the LEO began using unecessary force before there was any resistance on the part of the other person. If a person resists before the officer uses unecessary force, they've just about eliminated their justification (and therefore the justification of a third party) for the use of deadly force (or even force that is not deadly force) against an LEO.

In other words, if you didn't see the beginning of the situation, there is no way you could determine if you were legally justified in using force or deadly force to protect someone from an LEO. So unless you witnessed the whole thing, you couldn't even draw your gun and warn the LEO to stop under TX law. That would be using force (it's not deadly force until you shoot) under TX law.

At least that's how I read it.

[gak1]

As I recall the video mentioned at first the cop was just charged with a misdemeanor, and I don't know if the video/outcry raised that to a felony or if the prosecutors just changed their minds.

Point is, if you would've intervenened early and fought/shot him fearing for the woman's life, it probably would've been misdemeanor fine for him, and many years in prison for you for assaulting an officer of the law.

Because of the old double-standard, if you would've been beating her and the cop pulls out his gun and kills you, he gets praise for stopping an: "Out of control drunken psychopath seconds away from killing a defenseless female bartender with his bare hands." Time for a medal and a raise, oo-ra !

[workingstiff]

Having lived there for 9 years, I believe that Chicago PD Officers are required to carry when off duty. So in the unlikely scenerio that you would be in a neighborhood bar, on the Northwest side of Chicago, carrying a concealed handgun, and you decide to draw against an off duty, drunk LEO, I can't imagine any type of positive outcome.

Chicago cops are notorious for taking care of their own, even when comprimised while committing a criminal act. Very few options here other than call 911, try to physically restrain the attacker, hope you don't get too bad of a beat down when his buddies arrive, and hope you don't get caught up in the cover up (see related story of threatened retaliation.)

Just another day Mayor Daley's pistol free utopia.

[DesertShooter]

The female victim and her attorney were on the "O'Reilly Factor" last night. She looked okay, and said that she NEVER feared for her life (Her attorney cringed when she said that!).

Like many of you, I couldn't figure out why no one went to aid the female! It was a 300 pound [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] beating on a 120 pound female! Nothing was said about anyone knowing that the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] was an off-duty Chicago LEO....but, so what? What the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] did was senseless, and totally CRIMINAL!

The females attorney said that the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] was charged with 2 felonies. I don't know what the laws are in Illinois, but it sounded like the charges were along the lines of "aggravated assault" and "assault with the intent to gravely injure".

No, shooting the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] might have ended up with TWO people going to jail, unfortunately! Most businesses that are open to the public are required to have at least one fire extinguisher on the premises....in most states. That would have been the "weapon" that I would have thought about first. Give the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] a good blast directly in the face, or a solid smack in the neck! "Head shots" with solid objects often do very little, other than to piss off the assailant even more! Of course, you'd have to articulate that you "didn't know" that the fire extinguisher contents would possibly cause suffocation, or that a neck blow with the extinguisher might be lethal!

By the way, the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] may have gotten his LEO job through nepotism. His dad is a retired Chicago LEO. Whatever happened to "standards"? That [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] definitely looked over-weight for police work, and even with the pummeling that he gave to that female, it's obvious that he isn't exactly in the best of shape!

[Half-Price Assassin]

If i was in the bar, and DID NOT know he was a cop, i would have called the cops (dial 911), or looked around and got some other guys to pull him off. If i knew he was a cop, i wouldnt do a thing! i would call the cops, but not put a finger on him. YOU DO NOT F*** WITH THE POLICE, BOY! i know some of you guys online probably live in small towns where everyone knows each other, your brother inlaw might be a cop, you go shooting with some local cops, even go on some ride-alongs, and you may have been best friends in high school with the chief of police, but in the big city, if you see a cop do some wrong, look the other way, and leave, maybe call the cops and tell them what you saw, but do not leave your real name. thats just the way it is guys. now i am not saying all cops are bad, most are good people, but afew are scum, or what i heard one cop say, "the criminal element, hiding behind a badge". this is why cops who break the law, should be punished 10x worst then a non-LEO. and politicans who dont protect the bill of rights should be shiped to China.

[Windlord0]

It is because nobody acted that we are reading a headline like "Off duty cop beats woman." If someone had stepped in to stop him the headline we would be seeing is "bar patron attacks police officer."

Bad guy or not, normal people can't act against a cop. Every action you would take in that circumstance would be the wrong one. This doesn't mean I am not angry about this, and if I was in that situation (and didn't know he was a cop) I would have stepped in an kicked the guy in the head a few times. Otherwise I would be using my phone. I can stand being called a coward, but I could not stand spending years in jail for "assaulting a police officer."

[kennybs plbg]

Welcome to the me first generation of today, not many real men left in the world. 100lbs or 300lbs, cop or no cop why would any of this make a difference, someone (no less a woman) was getting beaten silly and the majority can't decide to either shoot him or run away. Sad, really sad what most people have become today.


kenny b

[Half-Price Assassin]

so, Kennybs plbg, let me get this straight, if you did know this guy was a cop, you would step in, and restrain him? I call BS. in this situation you probably would have been ok, there were many witnesses, and a camera. now lets take this same situation, and subtract the witnesses, and camera. now it comes down to your word against his. and trust me you will lose in court. so maybe your telling the truth, and you would try to restrain a drunk cop, hope he doesnt pull his pistol on you. you can feel like a real man, when your explaining this to your new cellmate, Deebo, and maybe he won't steal your fruitcup every lunch, and demand your cigs everyday. anyway i think the real tactics here are not to mess with people if you know they are cops. and that using deadly force as, A LAST RESORT. it would be tempting to pull your weapon and demand they lay on their stomach, till the real, "good guys", show up, but that sometimes doesnt work.

[BillCA]

Watching the video it was obvious to me that this cop would probably hit at least .15 - .19 on a blood-alcohol test. I've seen that "stagger" too many times.

In several events where I've tried to get some drunk from getting rough with someone, if he is aware of your presence at all, calling him a "pencil-d**ked redneck" usually distracts them from their initial target. The bad news is that you now have his entire attention . If you're able to duck, dodge and weave away from him, he'll do more damage to himself and the bar furniture than you could do to him.

The absolute best take down of a drunk in a bar that I ever saw was done by a woman. A fairly small blonde at that. She got the guy's attention and said I thought you were taking me home, stud. When the guy stood up and faced her she smiled and kicked him in the crotch hard enough to send his jewels into orbit. Problem solved.

[kennybs plbg]

so, Kennybs plbg, let me get this straight, if you did know this guy was a cop, you would step in, and restrain him? I call BS.

I didn''t see the video but it doesn't matter, yes if he or anyone was beating senseless on a woman I would try to stop him using any force possible up to but not including deadly force. If at that point the situation turned to life threatening I would use deadly force.

now it comes down to your word against his. and trust me you will lose in court.

This isn't even a factor at the time, the only thing that matters is stopping the attack on the woman. If it comes down to court so be it, I'll take my chances. I could live with either outcome knowing I did the right thing, but how do you live with yourself by turning away and doing nothing.

i think the real tactics here are not to mess with people if you know they are cops

Not being insulting here but I'd rather live my life in jail then the way you live your's by living in fear.

kenny b

[applesanity]

I'm gonna agree with some of the other posters - if you're dealing with big-city LEO, it's okay to be a coward. Those guys look after themselves. It's okay, I can hate myelf later. At least I won't be putting myself, my family, and everyone I know through hell if I, being a bystander, intervened directly.

But the way the guy at the bottom left reacted is no excuse. He just gawked for awhile like a deer in headlights. Then he walked away, came back, thinking, "hmm, should I stay or what?" ....And THEN he took out his cellphone.

If I was the bartender, I'd reached for the Beretta ducktaped under the register and stop the cop. Better take my chances with the cops while alive then dead. If I was the bystander, I'd whip out my cellphone, take a few pictures, walk out of the bar, and then dial 9-1-... oh wait.

[kennybs plbg]

i think the real tactics here are not to mess with people if you know they are cops

Sorry but I've have to come back to this one.

Why do people fear cops? I have many friends and some family members who are cops. none are better then me or our other friends and we're not better then them. Actually there is no us or them. Why do you feel they have more rights then the average citizen. They're people doing a job just like a teacher or even the garbage man. Granted some may have higher morals and beliefs but thats what makes them good at what they do.
I agree there are some "supercops" that think they can walk on water but no one is more aware of them then their peers they work with. Just like the bad teacher that can't teach or the garbage man that misses the truck and dents the can.

kenny b

[garryc]

I'd have jumped him knowing the risk that I might have taken that beating. That's ok, better to heal from a beating than live with the thought that I could have done something and didn't.

[4V50 Gary]

I have to agree with Special here. Mere law enforcement status does not confer upon an individual a right to act outside of the law. In stepping outside the law, he does not enjoy the protection of status. Thus, the question may be re-posed as: "Would you intervene if you saw a 300 pound man beating a 120 pound woman?" and if yes, "What level of intervention?" If the answer to the first is yes, then the appropriate answer to the second question is, "That which is reasonably necessary."