Does this go back to S&W???

testuser · July 6, 2012, 11:47 PM

Today I pulled out an eight shot Model 27 Performance Center purchased a couple of years ago. This weapon has seen maybe 50 to 100 rounds and was purchased new.

Anyway, timing is fine, IF I cock the hammer and don't touch the cylinder. However, if I apply any pressure at all, even very slightly with a finger, then the timing appears to be off on two cylinders.

When I don't touch the cylinder, the two chambers in question do not lock until very shortly before the hammer is at full cock.

My instinct is to send this one back to Smith, then again, maybe the test for timing should be done without touching the cylinder. Still, just barely touching a cylinder on a new gun should not make the revolver go out of time.

Thoughts?

Sport45 · July 7, 2012, 02:09 AM

Did you check the timing and lockup according to the revolver checkout sticky above? There may not be a problem.

FrankenMauser · July 7, 2012, 05:32 AM

For single-action operation, the cylinder must lock before the hammer.
If the cylinder does not lock before the hammer, you need to contact S&W.

For a double-action pull, the cylinder must lock before the hammer drops.
If it does not lock before the hammer falls, you need to contact S&W.

drail · July 7, 2012, 02:06 PM

A huge amount of S&Ws out in the world are like this. The inertia of the cyl. rolling will carry it up into lock with a normal DA pull. But when cocked or cycled slowly the bolt should lock before the sear releases the hammer (with or without your finger on the cyl.). It's not usually a difficult or expensive repair. S&W can bring it into spec. Call them. (or your local S&W revolversmith)

fastbolt · July 7, 2012, 04:54 PM

Are you checking the carry-up ("timing") with the charge holes in the cylinder empty, or filled with properly sized dummy rounds. It can make a difference.

FWIW, when I went through a S&W revolver armorer class a while back, we were told that we should not touch the cylinder when checking for proper carry-up. You hold the front of the empty - (meaning no live ammo, just dummy rounds) - revolver in one hand (not touching the cylinder), while normally gripping the revolver in the other hand, and then slowly pulling the trigger (in DA mode), and then slowly cocking the hammer (in SA mode). Slowly, not sloooooowly.

You don't exert any "outside pressure" against the cylinder by touching it with a finger.

Also, in order to accurately check the carry-up on a new model S&W revolver (no extractor pins in the rear of the cylinder), it's important that the cylinder charge holes are filled with properly sized dummy rounds. The new model extractor is held in the proper position for engagement with the hand by the cases of the ammunition (or dummy rounds) in the charge holes of the cylinder.

The extractor is cut (via factory cutting arm & hand) with dummy rounds being placed in the cylinder charge holes, too.

Trying to check carry-up on a new model S&W revolver with an empty cylinder may not give you an accurate "reading" of the carry-up.

Remember, the old model revolvers used extractor pins to hold the extractor stationary for carry-up, but the new model revolvers rely on the ammunition cases to hold the extractor stationary.

In SA mode the cylinder stop's bolt should drop into each of the cylinder's stop notches before the hammer reaches full-cock. In DA mode it should happen before the hammer falls (although I've been told it's not uncommon for it to seem to happen just barely before before hammer fall, or seemingly virtually at the same time).

If you have concerns, call the factory.

I had a new model revolver where the hammer dropped at what seemed to be almost the same moment where the stop's bolt snapped into the cylinder notch of one charge hole. Not quite the same carry-up as I liked on my other S&W revolvers.

I tried a couple of brand new over-size hands (ordered from S&W, for the appropriate size model). Neither one really resolved the problem, and the larger one dragged in the frame's hand window. I did NOT want to have to file the proper side of the window in a new gun, nor did I want to create a potential long-ratchet condition by trying more over-size hands. (Why risk creating a new problem while trying to resolve another one, right?

) Instead, I cut a new extractor. (Armorer tool kits contain the appropriate cutting arm/hands in tool kits.) Carry-up was now perfect.

The next new model S&W revolver I bought had excellent carry-up. It exhibited proper carry-up with & without empty cases in the charge holes. So have several other new model revolvers I've handled, used and inspected for our folks.

I'd talk to the factory about it, and consider asking them to check it under their warranty/service policy.

Just my thoughts.

James K · July 7, 2012, 07:44 PM

" The new model extractor is held in the proper position for engagement with the hand by the cases of the ammunition (or dummy rounds) in the charge holes of the cylinder."

Not true. If you look at the ends of the extractor star you will see that they are fitted to the cylinder so that there is minimal play whether there are cases in the chambers or not. I have seen that statement before, but it is evident that some folks just have not looked at the new setup; they assume that because there are no pins, the extractor must be able to turn unless there are cases in the chambers.

Jim

fastbolt · July 7, 2012, 09:42 PM

Quote:

" The new model extractor is held in the proper position for engagement with the hand by the cases of the ammunition (or dummy rounds) in the charge holes of the cylinder."

Not true. If you look at the ends of the extractor star you will see that they are fitted to the cylinder so that there is minimal play whether there are cases in the chambers or not. I have seen that statement before, but it is evident that some folks just have not looked at the new setup; they assume that because there are no pins, the extractor must be able to turn unless there are cases in the chambers.

I did have the chance to look at the new style extractor a time or two during the armorer class (and I own some newer S&W wheelguns which use that design).

The new style "square cut" design with "corners" does help provide some stability, but they're still "drop in parts" (although the ratchets must be cut) that allow for some tolerance range and resulting potential degree of minor looseness to exist. Of course, even a minor degree of looseness can sometimes be problematic when we're talking about the engagement & functioning of parts where the thickness of one of them is measured in thousandths of an inch.

It can vary from one particular cylinder & extractor combination to another, as I discovered in the armorer class when learning to cut a new extractor, and then a couple of times later on when cutting a couple more new extractors. We were told this is why armorers are now taught to put properly sized dummy rounds in the charge holes to cut the ratchets, and then also to check carry-up. The dummy rounds help fully "center" and hold the extractor star while it is engaged by the hand.

In the old style revolvers the extractors were held in place by the dual pins, but we were told the engineers eventually decided they could use the ammunition to act in the same capacity as the pins. An added advantage of this "pinless" design is that there aren't any pins to break.

Yes, I've checked any number of new style S&W revolvers without dummy rounds and found them to exhibit good carry-up. That's well and good. If any of them had exhibited "borderline" carry-up, I'd have used dummy rounds or empty/unprimed cases to check them more closely.

If they're telling armorers to use dummy rounds to support the extractors while cutting ratchets, as well as while checking carry-up, they must think it's better idea than not doing it.

When it comes down to it, though, I'm not in a position of being able to disagree with the factory and its armorer training. I'm certainly not a gunsmith, or a factory repair tech, engineer, etc. I'm just a basic armorer who listens and takes notes in the classes, and then calls back to pick the brains of assorted folks at the factory from time to time.

An expert, I am not.

buck460XVR · July 8, 2012, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Does this go back to S&W???
Today I pulled out an eight shot Model 27 Performance Center purchased a couple of years ago. This weapon has seen maybe 50 to 100 rounds and was purchased new.

If it has only seen 50-100 rounds over a coupla years, it needs to go back to the range more often.........

testuser · July 8, 2012, 08:29 PM

Thanks for all the advice!

I tried testing with fired brass and I think it did a bit better. There's still one cylinder than locks when the hammer reaches full cock in single action mode, not before, which doesn't seem right.

Anyway, the cylinder latch is sticky, even after oiling and working it a little. It should open smoothly, so I've decided to send it back to S&W. I'll have them check the timing while it's there.

fastbolt · July 9, 2012, 01:08 AM

Be specific regarding the couple of issues which concern you when you write the letter to accompany your revolver.

warningshot · July 9, 2012, 03:19 AM

Send it back.

On the firing line you leave all the 'could have been' and 'should have been' and 'never coulds' and all other lawyer and enginer legal ease double talk, back in their office where it belongs.

S&W Revolvers work as they should or they don't. Period. No excuses.

Last time I checked, S&W Performance Center Pistols didn't come with eracers on the bullets.

July 6, 2012, 11:47 PM	#1
testuser Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Posts: 495	Does this go back to S&W??? Today I pulled out an eight shot Model 27 Performance Center purchased a couple of years ago. This weapon has seen maybe 50 to 100 rounds and was purchased new. Anyway, timing is fine, IF I cock the hammer and don't touch the cylinder. However, if I apply any pressure at all, even very slightly with a finger, then the timing appears to be off on two cylinders. When I don't touch the cylinder, the two chambers in question do not lock until very shortly before the hammer is at full cock. My instinct is to send this one back to Smith, then again, maybe the test for timing should be done without touching the cylinder. Still, just barely touching a cylinder on a new gun should not make the revolver go out of time. Thoughts?

July 7, 2012, 02:09 AM	#2
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Did you check the timing and lockup according to the revolver checkout sticky above? There may not be a problem. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

July 7, 2012, 05:32 AM	#3
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	For single-action operation, the cylinder must lock before the hammer. If the cylinder does not lock before the hammer, you need to contact S&W. For a double-action pull, the cylinder must lock before the hammer drops. If it does not lock before the hammer falls, you need to contact S&W. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

July 7, 2012, 04:54 PM	#5
fastbolt Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2002 Location: northern CA for a little while longer Posts: 1,931	Are you checking the carry-up ("timing") with the charge holes in the cylinder empty, or filled with properly sized dummy rounds. It can make a difference. FWIW, when I went through a S&W revolver armorer class a while back, we were told that we should not touch the cylinder when checking for proper carry-up. You hold the front of the empty - (meaning no live ammo, just dummy rounds) - revolver in one hand (not touching the cylinder), while normally gripping the revolver in the other hand, and then slowly pulling the trigger (in DA mode), and then slowly cocking the hammer (in SA mode). Slowly, not sloooooowly. You don't exert any "outside pressure" against the cylinder by touching it with a finger. Also, in order to accurately check the carry-up on a new model S&W revolver (no extractor pins in the rear of the cylinder), it's important that the cylinder charge holes are filled with properly sized dummy rounds. The new model extractor is held in the proper position for engagement with the hand by the cases of the ammunition (or dummy rounds) in the charge holes of the cylinder. The extractor is cut (via factory cutting arm & hand) with dummy rounds being placed in the cylinder charge holes, too. Trying to check carry-up on a new model S&W revolver with an empty cylinder may not give you an accurate "reading" of the carry-up. Remember, the old model revolvers used extractor pins to hold the extractor stationary for carry-up, but the new model revolvers rely on the ammunition cases to hold the extractor stationary. In SA mode the cylinder stop's bolt should drop into each of the cylinder's stop notches before the hammer reaches full-cock. In DA mode it should happen before the hammer falls (although I've been told it's not uncommon for it to seem to happen just barely before before hammer fall, or seemingly virtually at the same time). If you have concerns, call the factory. I had a new model revolver where the hammer dropped at what seemed to be almost the same moment where the stop's bolt snapped into the cylinder notch of one charge hole. Not quite the same carry-up as I liked on my other S&W revolvers. I tried a couple of brand new over-size hands (ordered from S&W, for the appropriate size model). Neither one really resolved the problem, and the larger one dragged in the frame's hand window. I did NOT want to have to file the proper side of the window in a new gun, nor did I want to create a potential long-ratchet condition by trying more over-size hands. (Why risk creating a new problem while trying to resolve another one, right? ) Instead, I cut a new extractor. (Armorer tool kits contain the appropriate cutting arm/hands in tool kits.) Carry-up was now perfect. The next new model S&W revolver I bought had excellent carry-up. It exhibited proper carry-up with & without empty cases in the charge holes. So have several other new model revolvers I've handled, used and inspected for our folks. I'd talk to the factory about it, and consider asking them to check it under their warranty/service policy. Just my thoughts. __________________ Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer Last edited by fastbolt; July 7, 2012 at 05:22 PM.

July 9, 2012, 01:08 AM	#10
fastbolt Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2002 Location: northern CA for a little while longer Posts: 1,931	Be specific regarding the couple of issues which concern you when you write the letter to accompany your revolver. __________________ Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer

July 7, 2012, 02:06 PM	#4
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	A huge amount of S&Ws out in the world are like this. The inertia of the cyl. rolling will carry it up into lock with a normal DA pull. But when cocked or cycled slowly the bolt should lock before the sear releases the hammer (with or without your finger on the cyl.). It's not usually a difficult or expensive repair. S&W can bring it into spec. Call them. (or your local S&W revolversmith)

July 7, 2012, 07:44 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	" The new model extractor is held in the proper position for engagement with the hand by the cases of the ammunition (or dummy rounds) in the charge holes of the cylinder." Not true. If you look at the ends of the extractor star you will see that they are fitted to the cylinder so that there is minimal play whether there are cases in the chambers or not. I have seen that statement before, but it is evident that some folks just have not looked at the new setup; they assume that because there are no pins, the extractor must be able to turn unless there are cases in the chambers. Jim

July 8, 2012, 08:29 PM	#9
testuser Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Posts: 495	Thanks for all the advice! I tried testing with fired brass and I think it did a bit better. There's still one cylinder than locks when the hammer reaches full cock in single action mode, not before, which doesn't seem right. Anyway, the cylinder latch is sticky, even after oiling and working it a little. It should open smoothly, so I've decided to send it back to S&W. I'll have them check the timing while it's there.

July 9, 2012, 03:19 AM	#11
warningshot Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2009 Posts: 995	When the shooter thinks there is a problem, there's a problem. Send it back. On the firing line you leave all the 'could have been' and 'should have been' and 'never coulds' and all other lawyer and enginer legal ease double talk, back in their office where it belongs. S&W Revolvers work as they should or they don't. Period. No excuses. Last time I checked, S&W Performance Center Pistols didn't come with eracers on the bullets.