The Fighting Carbine

[SundownRider]

Saw this in another forum, thought it had a few good points.

The Fighting Carbine

We’ve all seen them, so-called “fighting” guns that lack the basics but are full of cheap crap. Someone can spend three-thousand dollars on accessories and still end up with a rifle that does not meet the most basic of requirements.

Your fighting carbine does not need to be expensive but it does need a few critical parts. In this thread we will focus on military-style carbines and the basics of making a usable fighting gun.

You don’t have to spend a ton of money but you need to have a good base to start with. Even with the tips outlined in this thread, if you have a bad base (even when combined with the highest quality of accessories) you will end up with an assemblage of ****. A pile of random AR or AK parts combined with someone with the most rudimentary building knowledge is not a good place to start. Begin with a rifle built by a quality manufacturer to proper specifications and you can save yourself a headache from the start.

Essentials
-Quality carbine
It helps to do a little (or a lot of) research first—your average gun shop employee is not exactly a fountain of knowledge regarding fighting guns. Keep this in mind.

-Reliable Magazines
Even the best rifle on the planet will malfunction (failure to load, failure to feed etc etc) with a ****ty magazine inserted.

For AR’s, consider the following:
-Genuine USGI aluminum magazines with issued green followers. Arête anti-tilt followers (such as Magpul brand) are a plus.
-Lancer L5 magazines
-Magpul P-mags (may not drop-free from all lowers)
This list is not all-encompassing by any means (as new magazines are developed regularly) but the above are all proven.

The magazine should drop-free when released from the magazine well and reliably feed and function.

For AK’s, consider the following:
-Black Bulgarian Waffle magazines (avoid US look-alikes as well as clear Bulgarian waffle magazines)
-Chinese smooth-back magazines
-Eastern European surplus magazines sans Yugoslavian.

Many Yugoslavian magazines feature a ‘bolt hold open’ function that is essentially useless when running a fighting Kalashnikov. If the followers are replaced with functional Eastern European followers, they are acceptable.
Avoid any current-production American-made AK magazines, as there is not one of them that meets any military (that runs AKM’s) specifications or standards. I could not in good conscience, ever recommend a magazine that does not have metal-lined (or metal!) feed lips and locking lugs. Due to this, Bulgarian “Bullet” magazines are also not acceptable.

Magazines should be kept reasonably clean and if they show any excess wear (large dents, mal-formed feed lips, or function problems) dispose of them on the double or mark them for “Range only” use. It is beneficial to have “working” magazines and “training” magazines. One way to rotate magazines out of the working pile is to number them so you can easily tell a problematic magazine from the rest. The marking does not have to be large (I like to use an etching pen) but something that distinguishes each magazine from one another is critical.

Again: Once a magazine wears out or develops problems, do not hesitate to throw it out immediately. Magazines should be considered a consumable item. Do not expect them to have the same lifespan as the rifle.

-Decent Sights

Sights are extremely important and completely on-par with magazines. It does not matter if you have an awesome rifle with phenomenal magazines if you cannot hit the target you are aiming at. Sights of merit are needed. Resist the urge to purchase budget sights made by companies known to make airsoft products—they cannot handle real rifles.

For AK’s, this is a no-brainer. The rudimentary standard factory sights work just fine. Some are keen on opening up the rear sight with a triangle file to allow faster target acquisition. This is okay, so long as accuracy is not impeded too much. There are many after-market sight options available for the Kalashnikov-series. A rear peep sight can be beneficial for a bench gun but for a fighting carbine it is less useful—you are not likely to have a bench handy in combat.

For AR-15’s, there are far more options for BUIS (Back-Up-Iron-Sights). If you are planning to run magnified optics in the future, you can leave the standard A-frame front sight post, as it will not be an issue beyond 2x magnification. Many want to run flip-up front and rear sights and that is okay, so long as you realize they should be deployed (in the ‘up’ position) when running a 1x red dot sight in case of optic failure (I did say this was, “Fighting Carbine” and not “Range Carbine”). Detachable carry handle irons are also available but if you ever plan on running an optic I recommend against them.

Whether you chose sights of a flip-up variety or fixed, the following companies are considered consistent and reputable:
-LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool)
-Troy
-Midwest Industries (MI)
-Magpul
-LaRue Tactical
-Matech
-Daniel Defense
-ARMS
-Colt

Once again, this list is not all-encompassing by any means (as new BUIS are developed regularly) but the above are all proven.

-Sling

You need a sling. Depending on the style, they can be used for carrying, weapons retention, transitions (from rifle to pistol), and shooting aids. As far as sling mounting, there are a myriad of ways to do so and largely depend from sling-type to sling-type.

There are four basic types available:

-Carrying Strap
This is your standard military sling. They are effective at carrying the rifle from one point to another and somewhat as a shooting aid but they fall short for transitions.

-Single point
These are good for carrying in the front, retention, and transitions. These slings are by far more beneficial for switching from the strong shoulder to the weak shoulder but fall short when it comes to climbing and other activities you may be involved in.

-Advanced two-point
Slings like the VCAS and VTAC fall into this category. They are good for carrying, transitions, and shooting aids. They excel when used for climbing and movement but are not ideal for strong to weak shoulder transitions

-Three-point
These slings were very popular among some groups in the late 90’s/early 00’s. Overall, they tend to be overly complex and hard to use effectively.

You need to look at your likely situation and assess your needs from this point. The two slings that are currently most popular are the advanced two-point and single-point sling.

-White Light
When using a modern fighting carbine, one has to consider a white light for the following reasons:
-Target identification
You need to properly identify a target before you fire. Whether you’re fighting house-to-house in Iraq or your own living room, target identification is essential. You don’t want to shoot your grandson or another teammate in the face.
-Identification of barricades/furniture/whatever in the room
You need to move without fumbling, a white light helps greatly with this. A white light can be efficiently used to maneuver around a room without bumping into many objects that could be otherwise avoided.

As far as when and how to employ white-lights, I will leave that to your rifle instructors (or for another thread).

There are many factors at play when selecting a white light,

-Manufacture
You need to select a white-light that is compatible with your mission and weapons system. You do not want to choose a light that will fail under extreme use or recoil, Due to this, manufacturers are limited. Surefire, Streamlight and Fenix are all considered to be manufacturers of quality lights. Avoid off-brand ‘Ebay’ lights manufactured in a questionable locale. The “SWAT” light you ordered off of the internet is not likely of the same quality as those listed and will likely fail sooner.

-Mechanism
You have two basic mechanisms for a light: Switch and pressure tape. I always recommend using a switch-activated light over a pressure tape activated light because the wires on a pressure tape can fail more readily. Even Surefire brand flashlights confirm this to be true.

-Mounting
Many lights are designed to be mounted to a quad rail. A quad rail itself is not essential to the fighting carbine but can be a good later addition. Regular hand guards can be fitted with short lengths of weaver rail quickly and easily. Since the rails will only hold a white light and not an optic, long-term stability is not as essential. Be aware of how you will activate the light and adjust your setup as necessary.

At this point in time, you can do everything you need to do with a fighting carbine. Once you have a quality base, magazines, BUIS, sling, and white light, everything else is gravy. One additional recommendation of equipment I have is a 1x red dot sight.


-Red Dot Sights

A red dot sight is a force multiplier. You can acquire targets, take shots from the weak shoulder and take shots from awkward positions faster and better with your carbine if you have a good red dot sight. Stick to a 1x optic and avoid the impulse to use an optic with a larger magnification on your fighting carbine.

What makes a good red dot sight? Well, it should be durable, long-lasting, parallax-free, and consistent. You have many options to choose from but I must say, most of them are not for the budget-minded:

-Aimpoint
-EOtech
-Trijicon

All of these optics have several varieties and I will not touch on them individually. Each one has their own individual advantages in speed, durability, and lifespan. Every single one listed gives the shooter (you) vast advantages over a traditional iron-sight setup. Once again, do your research and try out as many as you can. Just like with everything else, your Ebay optic is probably not up to snuff when compared to these.

Mounting red dot sights on AR-type rifles is fairly straight forward. There are many options available. Do some research as to what manufacturer you want to use for a mounting system for each.

With AK’s, unfortunately, it is more difficult. Many Kalashnikovs come equipped with a side-rail mount. These are good options provided that you use a sound side-rail mount. In general, avoid any mount that uses screws to hold it in place—they will not hold a zero. The Belarus BP-02 (low-profile) and BP-01 (high-profile) are both very good options for a side-rail mount. For AK’s not equipped with a side-rail or for those that prefer a further forward mounted optic, the Ultimak gas-tube replacement rail has no equal. Be advised that not all red dot sights can withstand the heat that emanates from a gas tube mount.

As a rule, avoid all dust-cover optic mounts for AK’s. These are unreliable at best. Recently, there have been many developments in “Beryl” style rails for AK’s but none have been around long enough to be proven stable and repeatable.


With all of the above, you should be able to make an effective fighting carbine without spending an inordinate amount of money. Yes, there are countless more options out there such as quad rails, vertical grips, magnifiers etc etc but most offer no additional benefit unless the basics are followed here.

[martin08]

SKS. Factory mag. Ammo. Stripper clips.

$250 fully equipped.

[David the Gnome]

Done!

[paknheat]

Sweet M-1 carbine there DTG. Here is my H.D. Go to rifle. It cost nothing for it was a gift.

[the rifleer]

m44 is a solid military carbine. its as accurate as most carbines. Its a slow bolt gun with a heavy recoil and a slow reload time, but its utterly reliable and has never failed. plus when i run out of ammo, i always have a bayonet at the ready.

[DanThaMan]

If I were to follow this setup for a fighting carbine right now... I'd prolly go for a Ruger SR556 for the base rifle, use MagPul P mags with anti-tilt mechanism, surefire light on wuad rail, troy BUIS (come with gun), two-point tactical sling, and an EOTech red dot sight.

One thing they didn't mention that I think is important is ammo choice. Surplus ball ammo wouldn't be my number one choice- nor would laquer coated wolf ammo be. I'd prolly shell out the extra coin for some Hornady TAP man stoppers which have proven reliability and accuracy.

[DBAR]

Either that, or just Keep It Stupid Simple....

[Quentin2]

Yeah, keep it simple like that last AR or the M1 Carbine or a bone stock AK. Then good magazines, ammo and maintenance to have a dependable carbine. Maybe a little custom work to tailor it to you a bit more but less is better.

[DBAR]

Yeah, keep it simple like that last AR or the M1 Carbine or a bone stock AK. Then good magazines, ammo and maintenance to have a dependable carbine. Maybe a little custom work to tailor it to you a bit more but less is better.

Your right about keeping it simple. The basic AR that I have pictured is my favorite AR right now, but that's probably because it's the last one I put together. The only things that I tailored where the 3lb Jard trigger, the gray/green DuraCoat finish, the narrower front sight post, and the ambi safety. The 1/7 twist Bushmaster barrel is pretty damn accurate for a chrome lined barrel.

DBAR

[GONIF]

Colt 6920 with an Aimpoint and your GTG ,FYI the Magpull P mags are better than the USGI mags.

[sholling]

One of mine.

[rugerdude]

This is my colt M4A1, issued to me by first recon battalion, U.S.M.C.. I'm going to put a cheekpad on the stock, and swap out that awful stock grip, and add buis later.

Sight: Aimpoint compM2 (M68)

Sling: Blackhawk VTAC

Light (laser): PEQ16. White light, infared floodlight, vis and infared aiming lasers. I like the pressure tape because it sticks nicely on my forward grip and I can always use the top button if need be.

Grips: I'm going to replace the rear one with a houge, and the front one is a standard knight's armament "broomstick" Some operators prefer the surefire light integrated M900 but I found it uncomfortable, akward to use, and I already had a light.

I also have an ambidextrous mag release and an extended charging handle catch which I believe is an absolute must have

Good stuff in the first post.

[mavracer]

either this

or this

[RT]

[DAWGTRAXX]

m44 is a solid military carbine. its as accurate as most carbines. Its a slow bolt gun with a heavy recoil and a slow reload time, but its utterly reliable and has never failed. plus when i run out of ammo, i always have a bayonet at the ready.

or a club!!

[Magi]

KISS is key!

[Quentin2]

Your right about keeping it simple. The basic AR that I have pictured is my favorite AR right now, but that's probably because it's the last one I put together. The only things that I tailored where the 3lb Jard trigger, the gray/green DuraCoat finish, the narrower front sight post, and the ambi safety. The 1/7 twist Bushmaster barrel is pretty damn accurate for a chrome lined barrel...

KISS is key!

Nice work DBAR and Magi! And everyone else who posted pictures.

[sc928porsche]

for close in work, nothing beats a short barreled 12 ga semi-auto loaded with 00. If you want to make it look tatickool, get some black or camo paint and add a flashlight.

[levallois]

The original "fighting carbine" circa 1930s - .351 Winchester Model 1907. 38 inches long and heavy by todays standards but with the 10-round or 15 round mags still a formidable weapon today - fires a 180 gr bullet at 1850-1900 fps.

[Jimro]

The person is the weapon.

Guns are just tools.

There is no perfect gun, only one that has the compromises you find acceptable.

A "fighting carbine" is kinda like a "swimming hammer" or "running wrench".

The power of any tool comes from the wielder.

Jimro

[L_Killkenny]

Ya want a carbine? Here ya go....


It's all you will ever need and has been doing it's job for over 100 years.

LK

P.s. The handguns are only include because all I have is a family pic.

[AMX]

Here is my favorite.

[Edward429451]

...Not soldiers

[Magnum Wheel Man]

without getting the AR, AK & SKS guys all worked up... IMO, the best carbine may not be a carbine anymore...

I'm not a big fan of the AR pistol, but if built & outfitted with quality necessesities, it has the potental to outperform the carbine... for civilian clearing "a" house use...

my FN 5.7 pistol with 3 - 20 round magazines with attached light & selected handloads likely falls into the same category...

after that my next choices would my 12 ga coach gun... after that would be either my 30 Carbine or an AR built around the 10 mm cartridge ( trouble there is I think only Olympic builds guns in 10mm right now , & quality could be questionable )

but I highly believe in the KISS concept my FN wears a light, my 30 Carbine a reflex sight, my SKS has been stripped down to basics, & accurized... it now shoots better than most, & I find I can reload with stripper clips faster than most can change a 20 or 30 round magazine on an SKS... I don't have an AK, but my new VZ-52 is bare bone functional

but honestly... if things go bump in the night in my home, my 1st grab is my regular carry S&W air lite 5 shot 44 special, & a Streamlight I keep with the guns, as I may not want the light attached to the gun, & I'm most comfortable & accurate with the 44

[p99guy]

Mah' car-beans in 3 exciting flavors! .30USC,5.45x39, and 5.56x45