Beating the SWAT team, Your suggestions?

[GuttSmoke]

In my case I'd be dead meat because of my location -rowhouse near a major city. Now if you live out in the suburbs and have a little land then I recommend doing what they did in a Tom Sellack movie with Bess Armstrong. I can't remember the title but Tom was a Pilot and I think Bess was also. Anyway, there is this scene where one faction is putting a siege on a strong hold, artillery and everything. The head cheese makes it look like he is running out of steam and the seiging forces start running across the field towards the stronghold. All of the sudden the Head guy in the stronghold start hitting detonation plungers and the field where the opposing forces are running across turns into crater killing most, really cool. So if you have some land and plant charges all through it, act like your weakening and when the poor bastards come [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] footing across let'em have it. But you still better have an escape route. Speaking of which does anyone know the biggest diameter you can get PVC in?

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"Solidarity is the Key"

[Jessica Wellman]

Good answer Ground Level
Know the enemy, know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril.

SUN-TZU (4th cent. B.C.), "Offensive Strategy" (31), The Art of War, tr. Samuel B. Griffith, 1963

[Long Path]

I'm especially with Rich on this one. Don't be there.

But more importantly, don't be the ones they storm in on.

MOST of the guys that were the targets of these wildly-publicized SWAT-assaults were actually guilty of something. [NO FLAMES, PLEASE!!! I'm on your side!!!] Did the guys you're about to defend to me (and I know you're about to! ) deserve to have guns pointed at them and their families, and be arrested at 3:00 am and have thier lives ruined? Usually not, if you're thinking of the cases I'm thinking about.

But Randy Weaver was actively engaged in criminal activity. (yes, probably as a result of entrapment, but that's another issue, and besides the fact.) The Davidians were engaged in some illegal stuff, no matter how feather-legged. And on and on. At risk of sounding like the Man, here... If you don't want that "knock" at your door, don't invite it with stupid criminal activity, no matter how low-profile.

Provide for getaway, but have your attorney's number in your wallet (better to memorize it). Remember that fleeing is against the law, and can be used against you, too. The funny thing is, most of the people that survived those standoffs are free today. Live to fight another day!

Use the revolving door against them!! Get booked in, walk right out.

Fight legally, don't be a criminal, and don't be there if you are one, in their eyes.

I don't shoot at police officers. I shoot at criminals. If an officer is actually committing a crime against me that is so bad I cannot for another second endure it nor its danger, he may well be relassified, but, in the long run, you lose. Right or wrong, you shoot a cop, you're wrong.

We're the good guys.
Don't be the bad guy.

I'm not kidding.

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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?

[Jeff Thomas]

Some interesting discussion, and also some of the more bizarre stuff I've seen on TFL.

Long Path, you're right in many ways. But, what increasingly concerns many of us is the point you seem to gloss over. Our society has evolved in such a way that I believe anyone should realize they might someday be accused of 'criminal activity'. As you point out, sometimes these cases are pretty thin. Perhaps razor thin. And, with the plethora of laws currently available to governments at local, state and federal levels, the danger of selective prosecution is greater than ever.

The more local things get, usually the more reasonable the LEO's. But, I think it is naive for anyone to feel it could never happen to them. We know a very sharp, experienced and successful criminal defense attorney that can tell honest tales that make your hairs stand on end. Long Path, it could even happen to you.

For my money, if it ever happens I suppose I'll dial 911 and then my attorney. Our local LEO's certainly seem to be very decent and honest guys. OTOH, if the climate becomes more like Germany in 1941, then perhaps I'll change my perspective. As in, from another venue.

[Long Path]

Jeff-- You're right on target. So we vote, we campain, and we write our legislators. We make our voices heard.

We DO NOT, however, pull stupid, illegal stunts and then shoot at the people who are coming after us, and then expect [b]not[b] to be demonized.

If you're shooting back at your government, you've already lost.

L.P.



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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?

[shortcut]

LongPath,

In order to start the Ruby Ridge massacre, the Feds shot a boy's dog while the pair were out walking on their own property. That's more than criminal...it's despicable!

That's more disgusting than being a white separatist who non-violently removes himself from the proximity of those with whom he disapproves - but he can't be left alone - can he? He has to be set up for a "crime" - a shorter than usual shotgun... (When did "Shall not be infringed" become "Shall not be shortened"?) It was a fundraiser by the FBI.

The mind police in Washington apparently decided that having a Black Caucus, Women's Caucus, Gay Caucus, whatever... is fine, but an isolated white loner raising his family is a danger to society.

Especially if there was an opportunity to create divisism and raise fund for more feds.

Where was the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals when the dog was shot?
Anyone shooting a kid's dog during their romp through their own woods DESERVES to be shot back at.

[Long Path]

shortcut:
Touche'.


But NexusLexus was asking for tips on BEATING a raid. My best tip (and the best I've seen yet) is: don't let yourself become the target for one. Without regard to the circumstances, most of the guys we can offhand think of who got raided did something to raise some eyebrows and get a judge to sign a warrant, illegal or not.

The easiest raid to beat is the one you avoid. Don't be a patsy.

[Tom B]

Well said shortcut!

[HS]

"the tv is hardwired for Barney and friends and the audio system has the best of the Carpenters on infinite loop"
dz, isn't there something in the Geneva Convention 'bout the unfair & inhumane treatment of prisoners ?
I say let 'em sit through the whole series of Monica tapes !
Also reading literature must be provided, Mein Kampf might be a good choice ?
Refreshments could be provided via a urine/water purification system....
Background music should be the "on hold" MUSAK that all Govt. Departments use to torture unsuspecting callers with !
Well they declared war 1st didn't they !?



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"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/

[Phillip]

Hey, y'all are coming up with some great suggestions, but they are pretty elaborate.
How about the simplistic?
Leave a box of fresh donuts (with sprinklies) and a pot of fresh hot coffee on a table placed just far away enough from the front door that it does not fall over when they kick in your door. This (combined with a clever disguise, like a Dunkin Donuts uniform) should stall them long enough to make your get away

[This message has been edited by Phillip (edited August 18, 1999).]

[Rob Pincus]

Very interesting thread.

I love the fish idea.

I disagree very strongly that the defense has a disadvantage. I think that if you were really "dug-in" and armed/supplied you could hold off a small (6-10) group of well-armed and trained attackers. Afterall, there is a reason that well trained armies do not plan an attack unless they outnumber their enemy significantly... [and] they try for as much surprise and mobility as they can get. Taking a static defensive position by force is not an easy prospect.

If you are ever really the target of such a group, chances are you would know why they were there and have had ample chance to avoid their arrival. If you are an illegal arms dealer or are running a crack house, consider this your warning that they may well show up one day .

IF, the attack was not from an LEA, but just some group of "SWAT-like" attackers, your best bet, IMHO would be to hole in a reinforced/armored room/closet and shoot everything that comes your way, quickly. With the right gear and the right setting I think someone could hold out pretty well, perhaps even exhuasting the enemy's resources and/or personnel.

or, you could use the FFD (frozen fish defense).

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-Essayons

[Prichard]

boobytraps and underground escape (much forsight needed)

b*lls to wall assault and escape (its worked against 'regular' cops, still need terrain advantages and perhaps prior contingency plans [vehicle] not to mention firepower such as explosives and hi-cap SAs or As would be quite helpful)

give up

[G-Freeman]

NexusLexus, The interesting part of your question was if it had ever been done. No takers on the real life side. I've done it plenty of times in "Rainbow Six". In my own real life, if it happens it will be a mistake, but I'll pay for it. If it isn't, I'll already be gone when they get there.

[DC]

Are you wealthy? Did you plan this?

If not you lose. If you have no contingency, you are dog food, and only a moron (or fanatic) would get himself into this scenario.

Anyone who doesn't think ahead deserves what they get, and thankfully they won't breed again.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!

[Mike Spight]

Rob:

I was assuming from his question a scenario involving him (or a Joe Sixpack) in a normal residence like most of us reside in. If a person with little or no training tries to defend against "...6 to 10..." trained SWAT personnel, they are gonna lose. Besides, the attacker already has a favorable combat ratio when he outnumbers a defender by 6 to 1, remember? Now if you want to fortify the house, give the defender lots of weapons and ammo, food, H2O, etc along with exceptional levels of skill at arms and fitness, and a support network within his community, then things might be different...IF AND ONLY IF he has someone in there with him (just as skilled) so they can get some sleep.

Just MHO.

Mike

[SHORTFUSE]

The "Profesional" with Jean Reno
is such a great movie!!!!!!!!
Three Swat guys got shot to s**t
in my area. The BG used a deer
rifle to penetrate their body
armor. All you need is a scanner
to monitor their radio traffic ,
a high powered repeating rifle of
many variations & a gas mask is a
must in order to engage in a non
confused state. They shot the s**t
out of those ATF guys at Waco. The
"Profesional" could not have killed
that many Swat with "pistol shots".
You need a high powered repeating
"rifle" , FN FAL .308 will do nicely.


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"Al veda sane"

[shortcut]

Long Path,

How may a person live a wholesome, real, and rewarding personal life and still avoid becoming a targeted suspect when there are so many agencies out there needing and creating criminals to arrest in order to support their jobs, I ask?

One simply cannot do it these days, without the real, feral, fear of federal attack & seizure of property.

As an example; I like birds. No, I LOVE birds, and run a huge feeding ground for all of them.

But if the feds ever found out that I had managed to attract & nourish an "endangered
species" to my land, all my land would then be forfeit to an armed agency "for the birds".

How can one "not be there" if the very thing being attacked is one's very center of being - health, happiness, and home?

[NexusLexus]

Thanks for all the feedback, interesting and funny ideas.

Remember this thred should be taken lightly, I discourage anyone to engage in a confortation with well armed police commandos. The attackers could be anybody, lets say they are a oppressive goverment police force like the Gustopo(spelling). I want to see if there is any possibe way to survive a "swat like" situation. I watch a lot of movies, so curious if this happen in real life.

BTW, I play Rainbow Six too. So its very possible to win in a defender role. But thats only a game.

[Byron Quick]

Simple answer. They show up and surround my house. The negotiator calls up on the phone.
I tell him things are cool if they have a uniformed officer with a legal search warrant. Have him knock on the door and I'll let him in with myself unarmed and surrender.
Try the battering ram crap and I'll see y'all in hell.

And for those who say that dynamic entry is to increase LEO safety: just use a smart bomb on my house- it will be a hell of lot safer!

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[Ed Brunner]

Interesting that Randy Weaver was called a "criminal". Usually he is called "Randy Weaver White Sepratist". An unfitting legacy for a US citizen whose wife and son were murdered by agents of their own government.



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Better days to be,

Ed

[HS]

Here's a senseable idea !
http://www.campsurplus.com/cgi-bin/perlshop.pl?ACTION=thispage&thispa ge=detectors.html&ORDER_ID=117654877
If you've got the real estate to warrant it.

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"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/




[This message has been edited by HS (edited August 19, 1999).]

[Dennis]

SWAT and similar tactics are necessary to combat dangerous criminals. However, once such teams are established, they MUST be used to justify the expense. Frequently, such teams and tactics are used when it is inappropriate, dangerous, and immoral.

I fear NO criminal in America so much as I fear the treachery, avarice, and lust for
tyrannical control so proudly displayed by our federal government and its minions.

If a SWAT-like team turns its attention on you, by accident, for funding, for legitimate reasons or otherwise - you're screwed. You will be VERY lucky just to survive the incident without being crippled or killed.

There is NO "beating the SWAT team". It's a dangerous, juvenile dream which will get you and your loved ones killed by those trained to kill you. And they will be called "heroes" and be promoted.

Now ask me again why I say we need to change our accursed, out-of-control federal government and return our government to Constitutional control.

Vote - for a change.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited August 19, 1999).]

[GuttSmoke]

Ed, Spartacus, Shortcut, and Dennis all of your last postings really tell it like it is. Shortcut your comments about just feeding birds could cause the Federals to attack you; how true. I make the following comment to all members of TFL. There are so many laws on the books that, I bet my entire Firearms collection, that not one member in this forum can go through an entire day without "breaking the law". I further bet that if any of you get behind the wheel of a vehicle you "break a law" within 2 miles. Just think about this! You can't go through an entire day w/o breaking the law and unfortunately there are SOME LEO's that are just waiting for you to do so. Scary
Dennis your thought of voting and such is very noble but here in Maryland elections don't mean squat. Back in 94 the Governor's election was rigged; dead people voted. Wasn't much done about it matter of fact the one paper rag called the "Loser" just having "sour grapes". Of course I don't think it is as bad in other states. At least I hope not.

[Dennis]

Well, gee, Guttsmoke,
Here in Texas we don't deprive a soul of his voting rights just because he's passed on!

Get out there and fight for ALL the votes. Make sure they don't vote for the wrong guy just because they're dead!

PS: Don't squat with your spurs on...
--------

Seriously, I guess voter fraud also happened in Missouri with the CCW issue. If they keep this up, if enough people get fed up with non-responsive government and voting fraud, somebody's gonna bring back that poster from WWII - "My M-1 Does My Talking!"

These "Slick" guys better recognize that as the frogs' water gets hotter, the ice gets thinner for ole Slick!

[dZ]

the only way you might survive and avoid capture is to think outside the box

they managed to run an underground railroad with hidden rooms...

true, we now have thermal imagers and helio's, you would have to plan for a wide range of obstacles.

occupying an apartment building may have advantages due to the surrounding cover.
secret door under the sink into next apartment, that you have lease on under separate identity.
They don't have a warrent for that dwelling...

Star Wars exit stage left via trash shoot
Have an ENG video camera and a press badge handy and re appear
they might escort you out of the area...


after all, we are talking about fooling humans


dZ