cz problems (now with video)

hightower · October 30, 2009, 08:25 PM

so now that i have everybody's attention

i just picked up a cz pcr (75bd compact with an aluminum frame) for the boss. First two mags it shot great....... next 100 rounds it would fail to feed 75% of the time in her hands. It worked fine in my hands......... now before the limp wristing claims get tossed around. I took a video of her shooting to see if i was missing something, she was honestly pretty solid. Took it back to the store, the owner and i both looked it over seemed alright. He saw the video and even agreed her grip was solid. Now the magazines are clinton specials and when fully loaded the ammo rattles quite abit. ammo used was remington umc fmj 115gr and federal premium fmj 115 gr, both fed equally poorly

So my questions are what should i look for as far as spring tension on the mags and recoil springs? Any suggestions on gripping the gun, she used the same grip on ever other auto and never had a problem even my notoriously picky 75 compact in .40sw.

NWCP · October 30, 2009, 08:30 PM

Since it works just fine in your hands it has to be something she's doing differently than you are. Nothing else makes sense.

Strick · October 30, 2009, 08:37 PM

Post the video.

Could be how she is gripping it, maybe riding the slide with her thumb or riding the slide release.

hightower · October 30, 2009, 08:58 PM

see what you think

this was after two previous ftf's

Strick · October 30, 2009, 09:01 PM

Looks to me that the slide is locking back because she is riding the slide release with her thumb.

hightower · October 30, 2009, 09:04 PM

heres a curve ball for you as you saw at the end of the video the slide wouldn't even lock on its own with an empty mag..... but could still be a possibility

MLeake · October 30, 2009, 09:10 PM

... then my layman's guess would be it's an issue with the magazine follower; I couldn't see anything she was doing that should have caused the FTRB's.

So the next question is, have you tried it with any other magazines?

hightower · October 30, 2009, 09:13 PM

just the two it came with

tech4061 · October 30, 2009, 09:18 PM

My CZ75B did this until I replaced the slide stop spring. However, my slide never failed to lock open on an empty mag. Since this only occurs when your wife shoots it, It is more likely what Strick pointed out.

MLeake · October 30, 2009, 09:19 PM

IE rattling, ill-fitting, and failing to lock the slide back, I'd suggest you might want to buy or order a new mag or two. I'd also suggest that if that fixes the problem, you ask the dealer for a refund on the cost of the two mags, since the two you were sold with the PCR would have to have been defective.

If it doesn't fix the problem, you're out the cost of a magazine (or two), and back to square one.

But it sounds to me like a magazine issue.

Side note: I have a fairly new PCR; the 14 round magazines that came with it were not rattling, and they lock in place crisply. I've had no problems with the PCR, and neither have other owners I know. This also biases me toward thinking that the issue with yours has to be the magazines, since the basic pistol design is known for reliability.

MLeake · October 30, 2009, 09:29 PM

That reason being, the video is shot from the wrong side to see what her thumbs are riding.

Anyway, just went to the safe and checked my own PCR for control reach.

She may be riding the slide release, but her hands look smaller than mine. I can reach the slide release without too much effort, but it is toward the end of my thumb's normal reach. Not only that, but the slide release is a fairly large, textured control surface on a PCR. If she has been riding it, she should have felt it pushing into her thumb.

So, ask your wife if her thumb is on the slide release while she shoots. And/or, ask her to dry fire it, after ensuring it's unloaded, and watch where she puts her thumbs.

Strick · October 30, 2009, 09:33 PM

She would be pushing up on it to lock it back and her grip looks like a low grip.

MLeake · October 30, 2009, 09:43 PM

Just asking because the way the slide release lever is mounted, a low grip should be well below the lever. Just picked mine up to verify; my normal grip has my thumb resting on the top curve of the grip surface, with the tip of my thumb just above the mag release.

From that position, there's no way I could ride the slide release.

I have to move my thumb up uncomfortably high for me to be able to do that.

So, a low grip should NOT be touching, let alone riding, the slide release on a PCR.

But, if her grip is shifting high when she shoots, it would be possible.

High Tower, look at the way your wife holds the pistol, and see if her thumb is touching the bottom of the slide release.

hightower · October 30, 2009, 09:44 PM

i told her hold the gun like you were shooting(no coaching or letting her know that a thumb on the stop might have been her fault) and that would be her natural grip pretty far off the slide stop. also the thumbs are pretty short, she can't keep a shooting grip and release the slide

just curious is that a difference between a cz 75 compact .40sw and the pcr slide stops?

and i also i did some googling and some places were saying the mecgar compact 40sw mags were working with the pcrs...even solved a similar problem that was traced to worn mag springs. i do have one of those anybody see anything wrong with trying to load 9mm in it and try it as long as the feed lips hold the 9mm?

railroader · October 30, 2009, 09:55 PM

I have a polymer cz clone that would do the same thing to me when it was new. I had to take out the slide stop spring and bend it a little to increase the tension. It works fine now. But as the others have posted you need to make sure she's not bumping the slide stop up. One other you can check. I have some witness mags that work in my cz. When a round would come to feed it would bump the slide stop slightly making the slide lock back with rounds in the mag. To check for this put a loaded mag in just the frame without the slide on. With the slide stop in the gun you can tell if the rounds will contact the slide stop. Check a couple of rounds because they come up staggered on the left and right. Here's a cz forum for help too. If you can't figure it out contact CZ. You can tell them you have a video if that will help. Mark

MLeake · October 30, 2009, 10:05 PM

but there's no real difference in the slide release position between the CZ75B and the CZ75D PCR 9mm models.

As far as .40 mags in a 9mm PCR, I don't know how well that would work. You can use .40 mags with .357SIG cartridges because the casings are approximately the same size, until the shoulder necks down on the .357SIG. I don't know that the 9mm round at the top of the stack would stay in proper position in a .40 magazine.

However, if you can't find 14rd PCR magazines in your area, you could go for the standard 16rd CZ75B magazine. That will definitely fit and work in a PCR. I use the 16rd magazines as spares when I carry a PCR for CCW, since it's not enough bigger than the 14rd magazine to make any difference in concealing the spare.

Standard CZ75 magazines usually aren't that hard to find.

And based on the pictures of your wife's grip, I feel pretty comfortable saying that this isn't a "riding the slide release" issue. Her hands fit right about where I thought they would.

hightower · October 30, 2009, 10:06 PM

so i'm feeling like a bit of an idiot....... i had both my cz pulled apart for lubing before the range........ and i'm pretty sure i had the slide stops swapped...the slide lock is very strong now.....

what are the odds that my bonehead move could cause some drag on the slide? it seems like it wouldn't be cause it wasn't even up high enough to lock the slide. now its time to go shoot it and admit i'm an idiot...hopefully

Pilot · October 31, 2009, 08:42 AM

What other model of CZ did the other slide stop come from?

I've had a PCR for nine years and its never given me any problems. Its in my carry rotation. One of my favorite pistols.

chris in va · October 31, 2009, 09:56 AM

There is definitely a more pronounced 'limp wrist' situation in the video, believe it or not.

But I had a really bad FTE issue with my CZ75BD for years, even took it back to CZUSA and was returned with "zero problems noted". Long story short, I hosed out the internals with PowderBlast (remove grips first!) and bought some MecGar mags. Issue mostly went away.

The factory mags that came with the gun in '03 were 15 and two 10 rounders, all had the same problem. Frankly they're junk, buy new mags.

But hopefully it's just the slide stop you mentioned.

PS...did you ask her what she wanted before buying?

MLeake · October 31, 2009, 10:00 AM

wrists look pretty locked to me; muzzle rise looks to be 1-2". If that's limp-wristing, than most of the shooters I see at ranges are noodles.

Strick · October 31, 2009, 10:04 AM

I don't subscribe to the whole limp wrist idea anyway. I have fired and seen many guns fired using just 2 fingers (it is a drill of sorts to show trigger control) and they cycle just fine.

Willie D · October 31, 2009, 11:05 AM

I can't tell from the video if the slide is locking back via the slide stop or jamming on the next round. Which is it? It's a big difference.

If it's getting stuck on the round, new mags are the 1st step.

Mine had an issue with the former problem. There are a few factors that can cause premature slide lock on a CZ. The slide stop spring is designed poorly and doesn't put a whole lot of leverage on the slide stop.

A new slide stop spring might help. CZ will send you one free, but be sure to describe what your spring looks like as there are 2 variations and CZ won't neccessarily know which one you have.

Weak mag springs can also be a cause. The 'next' round can slip forward and push up on the slide stop. You can observe how this would happen if you put the slide stop on and a loaded mag in without the slide.

Solutions to this include new Wolff mag springs and/or filing off part of the slide stop where it contacts the round (which is what some smiths do to CZ match pistols).

armoredman · October 31, 2009, 11:32 AM

If you can't find a 14 round CZ factory mag out there, PM me, I might be able to help. Also, ditto on checking the function now that the slide stops are swapped back, and a new slide stop spring might be in order. I have never had that issue, sorry, but I would like to ask, have you had the ramp polished? That also might help.

ranburr · October 31, 2009, 12:01 PM

The video looks like it is her. She is leaning back instead of into the gun and she has a poor grip. Get her into a class away from you.

dec41971 · October 31, 2009, 01:03 PM

I don't have a CZ, but I have had this happen on my Berretta PX4. I was told same thing at the range, that I was leaning back. Ok I was, but this is a gun I had over 1000 all varieties of ammo, with no failures of any kind. Why all of a sudden it didn't work? A Closer inspection revealed the slide stop spring was MIA. The slide stop spring is supposed to apply downward pressure on the slide stop preventing it from fliping up vertically and locking the spring. Where is no tension under the slide stop (ie loaded magazine) then the slide stop would stay down. If the spring is out of speck, it could actually lock upwards and do exactly this.
What happens when the magazine is empty? The inner thingy (sorry I cant remeber the name) that pushes on the catridge comes in contact with the slide stop mechanism, and literally pushes the slide stop up to catch the slide stop notch. Realize the magazine spring is much stronger than the slide stop spring, so it easily pushes the slide stop to the locked position. Thats how the physics on these works in layman terms.

So, based on what I know, it is the slide stop spring that needs looking at. I don't see anything she is doing to cause this. It should not lock that easily IMO.

October 30, 2009, 08:25 PM	#1
hightower Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: eastern wa Posts: 149	cz problems (now with video) so now that i have everybody's attention i just picked up a cz pcr (75bd compact with an aluminum frame) for the boss. First two mags it shot great....... next 100 rounds it would fail to feed 75% of the time in her hands. It worked fine in my hands......... now before the limp wristing claims get tossed around. I took a video of her shooting to see if i was missing something, she was honestly pretty solid. Took it back to the store, the owner and i both looked it over seemed alright. He saw the video and even agreed her grip was solid. Now the magazines are clinton specials and when fully loaded the ammo rattles quite abit. ammo used was remington umc fmj 115gr and federal premium fmj 115 gr, both fed equally poorly So my questions are what should i look for as far as spring tension on the mags and recoil springs? Any suggestions on gripping the gun, she used the same grip on ever other auto and never had a problem even my notoriously picky 75 compact in .40sw. Last edited by hightower; October 30, 2009 at 09:00 PM.

October 30, 2009, 08:37 PM	#3
Strick Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Katy, TX Posts: 67	Post the video. Could be how she is gripping it, maybe riding the slide with her thumb or riding the slide release. __________________ Click for my shooting blog

October 30, 2009, 09:01 PM	#5
Strick Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Katy, TX Posts: 67	Looks to me that the slide is locking back because she is riding the slide release with her thumb. __________________ Click for my shooting blog

October 30, 2009, 09:10 PM	#7
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	If the slide won't lock back on an empty mag... ... then my layman's guess would be it's an issue with the magazine follower; I couldn't see anything she was doing that should have caused the FTRB's. So the next question is, have you tried it with any other magazines?

October 30, 2009, 09:19 PM	#10
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Based on the description you've already given of the mag's.. IE rattling, ill-fitting, and failing to lock the slide back, I'd suggest you might want to buy or order a new mag or two. I'd also suggest that if that fixes the problem, you ask the dealer for a refund on the cost of the two mags, since the two you were sold with the PCR would have to have been defective. If it doesn't fix the problem, you're out the cost of a magazine (or two), and back to square one. But it sounds to me like a magazine issue. Side note: I have a fairly new PCR; the 14 round magazines that came with it were not rattling, and they lock in place crisply. I've had no problems with the PCR, and neither have other owners I know. This also biases me toward thinking that the issue with yours has to be the magazines, since the basic pistol design is known for reliability.

October 30, 2009, 08:30 PM	#2
NWCP Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2006 Posts: 1,903	Since it works just fine in your hands it has to be something she's doing differently than you are. Nothing else makes sense.

October 30, 2009, 08:58 PM	#4
hightower Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: eastern wa Posts: 149	see what you think this was after two previous ftf's

October 30, 2009, 09:04 PM	#6
hightower Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: eastern wa Posts: 149	heres a curve ball for you as you saw at the end of the video the slide wouldn't even lock on its own with an empty mag..... but could still be a possibility

October 30, 2009, 09:13 PM	#8
hightower Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: eastern wa Posts: 149	just the two it came with

October 30, 2009, 09:18 PM	#9
tech4061 Member Join Date: March 16, 2007 Posts: 79	My CZ75B did this until I replaced the slide stop spring. However, my slide never failed to lock open on an empty mag. Since this only occurs when your wife shoots it, It is more likely what Strick pointed out.

October 30, 2009, 09:29 PM	#11
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Strick said "maybe" for a reason That reason being, the video is shot from the wrong side to see what her thumbs are riding. Anyway, just went to the safe and checked my own PCR for control reach. She may be riding the slide release, but her hands look smaller than mine. I can reach the slide release without too much effort, but it is toward the end of my thumb's normal reach. Not only that, but the slide release is a fairly large, textured control surface on a PCR. If she has been riding it, she should have felt it pushing into her thumb. So, ask your wife if her thumb is on the slide release while she shoots. And/or, ask her to dry fire it, after ensuring it's unloaded, and watch where she puts her thumbs.

October 30, 2009, 09:33 PM	#12
Strick Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Katy, TX Posts: 67	She would be pushing up on it to lock it back and her grip looks like a low grip. __________________ Click for my shooting blog

October 30, 2009, 09:43 PM	#13
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Strick, do you shoot a PCR? Just asking because the way the slide release lever is mounted, a low grip should be well below the lever. Just picked mine up to verify; my normal grip has my thumb resting on the top curve of the grip surface, with the tip of my thumb just above the mag release. From that position, there's no way I could ride the slide release. I have to move my thumb up uncomfortably high for me to be able to do that. So, a low grip should NOT be touching, let alone riding, the slide release on a PCR. But, if her grip is shifting high when she shoots, it would be possible. High Tower, look at the way your wife holds the pistol, and see if her thumb is touching the bottom of the slide release.

October 30, 2009, 09:44 PM	#14
hightower Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: eastern wa Posts: 149	i told her hold the gun like you were shooting(no coaching or letting her know that a thumb on the stop might have been her fault) and that would be her natural grip pretty far off the slide stop. also the thumbs are pretty short, she can't keep a shooting grip and release the slide just curious is that a difference between a cz 75 compact .40sw and the pcr slide stops? and i also i did some googling and some places were saying the mecgar compact 40sw mags were working with the pcrs...even solved a similar problem that was traced to worn mag springs. i do have one of those anybody see anything wrong with trying to load 9mm in it and try it as long as the feed lips hold the 9mm?

October 30, 2009, 09:55 PM	#15
railroader Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2000 Location: Tucson Arizona Posts: 1,756	I have a polymer cz clone that would do the same thing to me when it was new. I had to take out the slide stop spring and bend it a little to increase the tension. It works fine now. But as the others have posted you need to make sure she's not bumping the slide stop up. One other you can check. I have some witness mags that work in my cz. When a round would come to feed it would bump the slide stop slightly making the slide lock back with rounds in the mag. To check for this put a loaded mag in just the frame without the slide on. With the slide stop in the gun you can tell if the rounds will contact the slide stop. Check a couple of rounds because they come up staggered on the left and right. Here's a cz forum for help too. If you can't figure it out contact CZ. You can tell them you have a video if that will help. Mark

October 30, 2009, 10:05 PM	#16
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	I only have 9mm CZ's but there's no real difference in the slide release position between the CZ75B and the CZ75D PCR 9mm models. As far as .40 mags in a 9mm PCR, I don't know how well that would work. You can use .40 mags with .357SIG cartridges because the casings are approximately the same size, until the shoulder necks down on the .357SIG. I don't know that the 9mm round at the top of the stack would stay in proper position in a .40 magazine. However, if you can't find 14rd PCR magazines in your area, you could go for the standard 16rd CZ75B magazine. That will definitely fit and work in a PCR. I use the 16rd magazines as spares when I carry a PCR for CCW, since it's not enough bigger than the 14rd magazine to make any difference in concealing the spare. Standard CZ75 magazines usually aren't that hard to find. And based on the pictures of your wife's grip, I feel pretty comfortable saying that this isn't a "riding the slide release" issue. Her hands fit right about where I thought they would.

October 30, 2009, 10:06 PM	#17
hightower Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: eastern wa Posts: 149	so i'm feeling like a bit of an idiot....... i had both my cz pulled apart for lubing before the range........ and i'm pretty sure i had the slide stops swapped...the slide lock is very strong now..... what are the odds that my bonehead move could cause some drag on the slide? it seems like it wouldn't be cause it wasn't even up high enough to lock the slide. now its time to go shoot it and admit i'm an idiot...hopefully

October 31, 2009, 08:42 AM	#18
Pilot Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2000 Posts: 4,193	What other model of CZ did the other slide stop come from? I've had a PCR for nine years and its never given me any problems. Its in my carry rotation. One of my favorite pistols. __________________ Pilot

October 31, 2009, 09:56 AM	#19
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	There is definitely a more pronounced 'limp wrist' situation in the video, believe it or not. But I had a really bad FTE issue with my CZ75BD for years, even took it back to CZUSA and was returned with "zero problems noted". Long story short, I hosed out the internals with PowderBlast (remove grips first!) and bought some MecGar mags. Issue mostly went away. The factory mags that came with the gun in '03 were 15 and two 10 rounders, all had the same problem. Frankly they're junk, buy new mags. But hopefully it's just the slide stop you mentioned. PS...did you ask her what she wanted before buying?

October 31, 2009, 10:00 AM	#20
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	limp-wristing? wrists look pretty locked to me; muzzle rise looks to be 1-2". If that's limp-wristing, than most of the shooters I see at ranges are noodles.

October 31, 2009, 10:04 AM	#21
Strick Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Katy, TX Posts: 67	I don't subscribe to the whole limp wrist idea anyway. I have fired and seen many guns fired using just 2 fingers (it is a drill of sorts to show trigger control) and they cycle just fine. __________________ Click for my shooting blog

October 31, 2009, 11:05 AM	#22
Willie D Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2007 Posts: 1,149	I can't tell from the video if the slide is locking back via the slide stop or jamming on the next round. Which is it? It's a big difference. If it's getting stuck on the round, new mags are the 1st step. Mine had an issue with the former problem. There are a few factors that can cause premature slide lock on a CZ. The slide stop spring is designed poorly and doesn't put a whole lot of leverage on the slide stop. A new slide stop spring might help. CZ will send you one free, but be sure to describe what your spring looks like as there are 2 variations and CZ won't neccessarily know which one you have. Weak mag springs can also be a cause. The 'next' round can slip forward and push up on the slide stop. You can observe how this would happen if you put the slide stop on and a loaded mag in without the slide. Solutions to this include new Wolff mag springs and/or filing off part of the slide stop where it contacts the round (which is what some smiths do to CZ match pistols). Last edited by Willie D; November 2, 2009 at 10:28 AM.

October 31, 2009, 11:32 AM	#23
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,310	If you can't find a 14 round CZ factory mag out there, PM me, I might be able to help. Also, ditto on checking the function now that the slide stops are swapped back, and a new slide stop spring might be in order. I have never had that issue, sorry, but I would like to ask, have you had the ramp polished? That also might help.

October 31, 2009, 12:01 PM	#24
ranburr Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2006 Location: TX Posts: 1,278	The video looks like it is her. She is leaning back instead of into the gun and she has a poor grip. Get her into a class away from you. __________________ ranburr "There are no stupid questions, just stupid people asking questions".

October 31, 2009, 01:03 PM	#25
dec41971 Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2009 Posts: 236	I don't have a CZ, but I have had this happen on my Berretta PX4. I was told same thing at the range, that I was leaning back. Ok I was, but this is a gun I had over 1000 all varieties of ammo, with no failures of any kind. Why all of a sudden it didn't work? A Closer inspection revealed the slide stop spring was MIA. The slide stop spring is supposed to apply downward pressure on the slide stop preventing it from fliping up vertically and locking the spring. Where is no tension under the slide stop (ie loaded magazine) then the slide stop would stay down. If the spring is out of speck, it could actually lock upwards and do exactly this. What happens when the magazine is empty? The inner thingy (sorry I cant remeber the name) that pushes on the catridge comes in contact with the slide stop mechanism, and literally pushes the slide stop up to catch the slide stop notch. Realize the magazine spring is much stronger than the slide stop spring, so it easily pushes the slide stop to the locked position. Thats how the physics on these works in layman terms. So, based on what I know, it is the slide stop spring that needs looking at. I don't see anything she is doing to cause this. It should not lock that easily IMO.