Legality of a "rapist trap".

[Jason607]

A good freind of mine recently got married to a very sweet, pretty girl that looks very innocent, looks like an easy target. Some days, tuesdays and thursdays she got off early and would come home alone. Every time, someoen would try the door locks usually just the side one. Each time, they tried a little harder. One time, she called the police, they found a suspicious individual walking down the street, turned out to be a registered sex offender. However, without proof, they couldn't do anything. The police started patols on those day, tha activity stopped, but when the patols stopped, it started again. This guy was experienced I guess. He would only do it when she was home alone. We didn't think it was fair she should be afraid to come home alone, so we decided to take action.

On day she typically came home alone, we got to the house a lot earlier but parked way down the street. Came through the back way through the back door. She got home, but it looked like she was the only one there. We hid so we couldn't be seen from the windows, but she could. She sat on the couch where she usually did and we waited, but this time, we left the side door unlocked. If he entered, he would be dead, there is no doubt. He never came. Either he was that good of a stalker, or had given up, right when we were fed up.

Here is my question. How legal was that? Before we did it, we asked an LEO, his responce was "I can't recomend it, or say to do it, if he comes in right were you happen to be holding your gun, make sure he gets past the door frame before you do what you have to do"

[jcims]

I think your would-be rapist did you all a massive favor by not showing up that day.

It seems to me the focus should be on helping your buddy's wife be prepared to protect herself, and not baiting random perverts into a bad situation so you can splatter paint the walls. IMO there was way too much planning involved, and probably now way too much discussion about it, for this to look even remotely like self defense. I'm not sure if a case like this would get aggressively prosecuted in most places, but if it did, you and your buddy would probably get to play the wife every now and then yourselves...

[Axion]

If it ever got out that you planned this, and things like that tend to come out under cross examination, you'd be in jail for a long time.

IMO it would be much better to rig a camera up so you could have proof of him trying the door. Then teach the lady to shoot incase he did ever make it in.

[garryc]

laying in wait legally = FIRST DEGREE MURDER!!! That he was a convicted sex offender does not lessen the fact that you baited him, set a trap, then executed him. If I was on your jury and the facts were presented as you stated them I would convict you for murder. and no I would not cry for the victim.
That being said, this woman needs to take responcibiliy for her own security. She seemed perfectly willing to play your little game so I have to ask, Why would she not be willing to defend herself? Maybe she has this damsil in distress thing going on, or she likes being a victim and the center of attention. I have to wonder if, had your little murder happened, she would have turned on you to save her own arse.

I'd tell her, "Look sweetie, we'll teach you to shoot like a champ, teach you USD until you can kick Hulk Hogans arse, but if you aren't willing to take responcibility for your own security you can take your chances with all the other sheeple."

[tanksoldier]

Knowing that your friend's wife may be the target of a stalker/ rapist, and being there to help protect her "just in case" is fine.

Leaving the door unlocked HOPING that the guy would come in, and then shooting him when he does, is probably murder is many jurisdictions.

Here in Colorado I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be. I mean the guy still has to walk thru a door he has no business walking thru without invitation, and it's not like you're putting a gun to his head and MAKING him come inside, which would be murder even here... but we're a bit backward up here.

[garryc]

If you are very darned lucky the cops will slant the evidence in your favor, but don't count on it. If I was the investigating officer I would present the facts exactly as I found them.

[guntotin_fool]

He was watching and saw you. He knows you know, have you seen him around since? Do you have a picture of him around?

Second if you were in the home and he walks in, as a registered sex offender in the home of a woman he thought was alone, No prosecutor is going to risk his carrier on writing murder charges against you.

I would prefer the method of offering to buy the guy a drink, and then explaining in detail that should your friends wife suffer a hang nail in her home, you would be more than willing to dispose of his body in a redimix cement truck. Explain then that you are going to find any and every one he every cared about and do to them what he did to her. I have used this method twice, once with a guy who was stalking my wife and another who was abusing my cousin, both times when faced with plain stark terms of the end of their life, they have stopped.

This may not be the PC answer, but it does work. Don't threaten, don't say in ear shot of anyone, but let him know that if he continues to bother her, his alloted time is up.

[Fn-P9]

Wait a min here. Whats the differnce in self defence in that "not knowing" the treat is comming vs "knowing" that a threat MY be coming. Seeing that this is in NO WAY a trap as I see it. A sexy girl wearing a short skirt is not a trap for a rapist to be "magnetically" drawen to raping said girl. Even if you hid in the bushes and he came bustin through the door to rape your girl then you popped out and shot his a**, how is that wrong? He had criminal intent to do bodily "harm" or worse. If I sat on the jury on this case I'd say heck yeah. Glad to see that that guy wont bother me or anyone else.

TEACH YOUR GIRL TO USE A GUN, KARATE, 2X4 WITH NAIL ON END ect.

thank you

[tanksoldier]

That isn't what matters. Leaving the door unlocked on purpose is could be construed as premediation.

Whats the differnce in self defence in that "not knowing" the treat is comming vs "knowing" that a threat MY be coming.

[atlctyslkr]

I"m all for cleaning up the streets but unfortunately this is nothing more than a booby trap with human bait. Remember the case of the guy who rigged his door with a shotgun? It's okay to be armed in your own home and if you live in a stand your ground state then you can put a load of buckshot in an uninvited guest but don't advertise it.

[Duxman]

There is nothing wrong with being armed in your own home, prepared to deal with trouble if it comes along.

BUT planning such a intricate "trap" in which you leave a door unlocked, hide behind the couch, and baiting your intended target (with the honey trap) borders on 1st degree murder.

Arm your friend's wife. Get her training. This is not going to be the last threat that she will face in her life. So better to be prepared for anything in the future as well as this possible threat.

[springmom]

You'd have to ask a lawyer in your state. Prosecution for shootings vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Had you simply held him for the police, I expect you'd have gotten a pat on the back followed by "and don't ever do that again". Had you shot him? Ask a lawyer.

Come to think of it, next time, ask the lawyer first.

Springmom

[Savage10FP308]

How can leaving the door unlocked on purpose cause you to be convicted for murder? If I am home and a person I know to be a sex offender walks in my house to do something to my wife then they are getting shot. I wouldn't shoot him unless he had a weapon of some sort since I live in Illinois but if he didn't have a weaon then I would hold him at gunpoint (him on the floor-hands on head-gun aimed at head) while my wif phoned the police. If he moved I would proceed to give him the beating of his life. Just because yu leave the door unlocked doesn't mean you forced him t walk through it. The victim doesn't cause the crime no matter how bad some people want to believe it.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Springmom is so smart!! Talk to a lawyer and document the threat. Pay no attention to the men behind the Internet, Toto.

IT'S MURDER! How do you know if you aren't a lawyer in that jurisdiction?

[Samurai]

The meaning of "lying in wait" has to do with premeditation and deliberation as an aggravating circumstance, elevating murder to first-degree, or such as that... You can't really "lie in wait" in your own home.

Technically, you have the right to sit in your home with the doors unlocked. And, you have the right to shoot anyone who walks through your doors uninvited, provided they are behaving in a threatening manner sufficient to make you fear for your life.

The problem is, if you've intentionally left the door open, expecting the guy to come in so that you can shoot him, then you haven't really shown anybody that you're "in fear for your life." In fact, you've essentially invited this dude in so that you can bust a cap in him.

Technically, a good lawyer (read: rotten human-being) could probably put together a good argument to the jury as to why you should not go to jail for the rest of your life and forfeit all of your worldly possessions to the five crack-babies this scumbag left behind. BUT, juries hate vigilantes. Juries hate cowboys. And, juries HATE LAWYERS!!! Never rely on a lawyer to get you through a sticky situation. Just stay un-sticky.

You were probably within your right to bait this guy, so long as you were CERTAIN that you could take him alive. But, if you had to shoot-to-kill, then I would expect some heavy legal fees to follow...

[Ronny]

Talk to a lawyer and document the threat. Pay no attention to the men behind the Internet, Toto.

While I agree that documenting this with the authorities is the smartest course of action, I also sympathize with you and your friend's situation:

It's as if you can't really do anything to this stalker unless you catch him in the act (and it's too late for the girl), or he's already done it (and it's too late for the girl) and is now awaiting trial for another couple of years of free room and board (prison) -- after which he will be released so he can do it again (as he is now) to another girl. I don't know about you, but I don't like waiting around for my wife to get raped just so I can legally take action.

Criminals have that advantage, they know you can't legally do anything until they do it first. Unless you want to end up in prison with them -- in which case you'll just get out after a couple of years and can resume your business.

The law-abiding seem to be more afraid of going to jail than the law-breakers, which only serves to tie up our hands and do nothing even if we are in danger. You can observe this in many police videos: a gunshot goes off, or someone is being beaten in a public place and no one does anything. They just watch, and wait for someone else to do something for them.

[bill in IN]

I would wager that any lawyer who will tell you that it is or isn't convictable is either inexperienced or has other problems. Conviction requires a jury unless you waive that right. Anybody who thinks they can dtermine what a jury will do.....

[springmom]

Pay no attention to the men behind the Internet, Toto

You know, you ought to turn that into a sig line. Or sell bumper stickers that say that, or something. LOL!!!!!!

Springmom

[spacemanspiff]

While society would probably be a little safer with the sex offender behind bars or 6 feet deep, it would be far better if you were to find his picture and the crimes he is convicted of and hang posters around the neighborhood warning everyone else about him.

[bartonkj]

Let's go over some definitions here (exact definitions may vary by jurisdiction but generally): Please note this is not legal advice - just an ACADEMIC discussion of legal terms IN GENERAL

-homicide: killing of a human being by another human being.
-justifiable homicide: killing of a human being by another human being with legal justification: self-defense is in this catagory.
-manslaughter: unlawful killing of a human being by another human being either through direct action or through inadvertence.
-1st degree murder: killing of a human being by another human being with malice aforethought (i.e., premeditation - or intending beforehand to carry out action that can reasonably be expected to casue death or serious bodily harm).
-2nd degree murder: killing of a human being by another human being by intent but without malice aforethought. (i.e., you intended to carry out action that can reasonably be expected to cause death or serious bodily harm, but you did not specificly plan to do this action beforehand)

1) self-defense
If you are in your house and your door is unlocked and someone enters your house without permission and you have a reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily harm from this person then you have the justification to use deadly force to protect yourself or others in the immediate area.

There is nothing wrong with leaving your door unlocked. There is nothing wrong in defending yourself against an immenant threat of death or serious bodily harm.

2) murder
a) door lock - If you immediately anticipate a person entering your home and you leave the door unlocked - that action could be evidence of a design to make a confrontation more likely. Most reasonable people would lock their door if they anticipated someone entering their home without permission.
b) laying in wait - if you hide out in the house in a specific spot in anticipation of a person entering your home, especially with the door unlocked, and you intend to "confront" this person it provides evidence that you may have not been in fear of death or serious bodily harm - a "reasonable" person in fear of death or serious bodily harm who anticipates a confrontation would call the cops, etc....
c) premeditation - taking everything together - anticipating that someone will enter your house and your plans to make it easier for them to do so and your plans to confront them with an ambush (especially with a deadly weapon) is premeditation to carry out an act that can reasonably be expected to cause death or serious bodily harm.

DIFFERENCE - the difference between self-defense and murder in this situation is your state of mind. If you lay in wait intending to ambush someone and make it easier for a confrontation to happen - that could be 1st degree murder because your state of mind anticipated and intended this action.

NOTE: when I say anticipate I don't mean in the general sense that you train for defenseive firearms use in anticipation of needing to protect yourself some day in the future.

[RevolverLover]

What you did was illegal. I strongly recommend that you document the incidents and get your friends wife some self defense training. A few hidden cameras around the outside of the house would be helpful. Also warn neighbors about this person.

While society would probably be a little safer with the sex offender behind bars or 6 feet deep, it would be far better if you were to find his picture and the crimes he is convicted of and hang posters around the neighborhood warning everyone else about him.

That would probably lead him to getting sued for defamation of character. :barf:

[Capt. Charlie]

If he entered, he would be dead, there is no doubt.

That one statement is the problem.

There's two separate issues here, the "trap", and your actions after the trap is sprung.

Setting the trap, as you described it, is completely legal. We do it all the time with hookers. A female cop is placed on the street, dressed like a hooker. She's the bait for a "John", but the trick is that she cannot solicit anyone. As long as the John makes the approach and does the soliciting, it isn't entrapment. Now if she says anything like "Hey big boy, wanna party?", it becomes entrapment.

This is a similar situation. Simply leaving the door unlocked isn't a problem. But if anything further was done that would clearly bait him to enter, you'd have a big problem.

Then there are your actions after the pervert enters. Your post suggests that you intend to gun him down, no matter what. That's not going to fly, no matter where you are.

Your actions are going to be governed by the laws of your state that pertain to defense against burglary, and whether or not deadly force to defend another is justified. It's also going to depend on the offender's actions when you confront him.

If you detain him for police, using only the minimum amount of force necessary to accomplish that, there shouldn't be a problem. But if you kill him, and investigation reveals you had that planned the whole time, you are most definitely looking at a charge of premeditated murder.

[James K]

A storekeeper, after having been repeately burglarized, waited in his darkened store and shot and killed a man who broke in. He was found guilty of murder. There were two factors against him. The first was that he laid a trap; it was not his home and his only purpose for being there was to kill an intruder. The second was that he had been heard bragging that he would fire without warning at any "SOB" who came in. The combination got him convicted.

A man who set a shotgun trap rigged so that opening the door pulled a string that set off the gun was also convicted of murder when his burglar trap killed a man. The jury found that first, he was not in danger (he was miles away), second that burglary is not a capital offense, and third that the victim could have been a child or someone simply seeking shelter. The trap had no fear and no judgement.

Jim

[Wildalaska]

Murder

WildseecaptcharliesanswerAlaska

[Samurai]

Regarding the famous old story of the guy who rigged the shotgun trap to kill someone who opened the door:

1. It wasn't his house. It was an abandoned old house on an old farm he owned.
2. The shotgun trap killed a small child.
3. The guy knew that small children liked to come in and explore/vandalize the abandoned old house. The guy set the trap (they call them "spring-guns") to "teach those kids a lesson." That guy was a really sick puppy...

But, that's a TOTALLY different case from what we're talking about. What our guy did was wait in an unlocked house. That's not a "trap," really. It's just placing yourself in anticipation of entering a shootout. I still think our scenario is not quite kosher, but it's not as heinous as the famous old story of the guy who set the shotgun trap.