Guns in Mexico

Tennessee Gentleman · March 28, 2009, 11:20 PM

I have been listening to the news for several days and I saw a rep from the BATFE say that 90% of the guns used by the drug cartels in Mexico came from gun stores in the US.

I have been trying to do more research but it seems all the news services use the same outlet and the stories are all the same.

Now I can understand handguns, and how they could get them here at gunshows but the weapons I am seeing them retrieve from the drug gangs shown on the news are full auto and oher military arms like mortars. Last I looked Dick's Sporting Goods don't sell M2 Machine Guns.

So my question is:

1. Where does the BATFE get this 90% figure and how would they know?

2. Are the weapons real assault weapons (full auto) or are they weapons like Ar-15, Mini-14s etc.

3. If they are true assault weapons how does the AWB stop drug gangs from getting them?

4. How after we get the truth can we particpate in stopping such misinformation if it is that?

Whew! I feel better now

chemgirlie · March 28, 2009, 11:38 PM

One also has to consider that the US sold the Mexican government guns a few years ago. Obviously the Mexican government/military is corrupt, and many of these guns have made their way to cartels/other criminals. One could say that these guns came from the US and leave out the part where they were legally sold to the Mexican government and not from gun shows or the black market.

scorpion_tyr · March 29, 2009, 12:22 AM

I don't think we'll ever find the answer to this one. I find it hard to believe that illegal arms are making their way from the US into Mexico. I can easily see it going the other way.

Yes it would be easy to get a gun from the US into Mexico. But it would be rather expensive to pay people to buy guns in the US just to send them to Mexico. It would be much easier and far cheaper to have full auto weapons from Africa, or a number of South American countries brought over.

What they're probably talking about is that the firearms are ones that the US supplied to other countries. Yes, we supplied mortars, AK-47's, M-16's, etc. If it can be carried by 1-4 people we sold it to them. Years later currupt governments lead the weapons to find their way other places, like Mexico.

I still don't believe that all or even most of the weapons had anything to do with the US. Just a guess, but I bet it's less than 10%.

Mr Odd Six · March 29, 2009, 12:32 AM

There were 150k deserters form the Mexican Army in the past year.

Most took thier weapons with them.

Guess where they ended up.

The stuff they picked up is not available to you and me in ANY gun show

less you have a class III

googabeest · March 29, 2009, 01:18 AM

Found a pretty interesting article about Mexican guns linked from John Lott's site

http://www.gunnewsdaily.com/rw807.html

stevelyn · March 29, 2009, 03:17 AM

I wouldn't believe a word the ATF has to say. They manufacture evidence and lie all the time. Why would a report on Mexico be any different?

This whole thing about US guns in Mexico is a contrived lie that the govt, their toadies in the media, socialists and the anti-gun groups are pushing to sway public opinion in favor of an new and improved AWB.
I can almost bet you that there is a PR campaign being waged in the same manner as Wolfowitz and company did with PR firms for the Iraq war.

Drug cartels have no shortage of money. The same Central and South American sources that arm groups like FMLN, FARC, Shining Path and other low-grade guerilla groups, will gladly accept cash from the cartels. I would even bet that ol' Hugo in Venezuela and Raul in Cuba aren't above moving weapons from or through their countries to the cartels just to screw with the US. I'm sure they have their "Yuri Orlovs" too to maintain several degrees of separation. Let's not forget that a big source is from corrupt elements in the corrupt Mexico govt itself.

Crosshair · March 29, 2009, 05:49 AM

Also note that the Mexican government has not supplied serial numbers for the massive numbers of weapons that supposedly came from the US. If they really were coming from the US you would think that they could come up with a list a mile long.

If they did, I would bet they would confirm what scorpion_tyr said, the guns were originally sold by the US government.

alloy · March 29, 2009, 05:59 AM

I dont know if i saw the same thing but what i saw two days ago on Fox said "90% of all guns smuggled into Mexico come from the US"

90% of what number? 5 guns, or 500,000? It's an off the cuff percentage and its the normal sloppy talk sound bite. Either way....if they had an actual number or estimate, i think they would come out with it. But since the Mexican army claims 98,000 desertions in the last 5 years and we supply the Mexican army with guns, i would imagine quite a few captured guns would be made in the USA. I also dont think there is any shortage of small arms in central and south america, especially when there was a time when we were trading guns for drugs. *see Oliver North. Those guns were smuggled too. As to #3, i think its safe to assume those aren't coming from here...all ours are worn out and priced thru the roof with an extremely limited supply.

Yes there is a massive issue, i just don't trust the ones doing the talking to know what it actually is or tell the truth about it, and i don't mean the reporters. I lived for a time in Yuma/San Luis and this entire Mexi problem, is NOT what it appears...anyone that has stood at the border when the fields let out would say the same. I didn't understand it then, and i don't understand it now, but it was truely an eye opener. Its very hard to keep both eyes on the ball, but the more real black market commodity flowing(smuggled) into the USA...and the smuggling lanes fought over...is unchecked, unregulated, sanctuaried, aided and abetted, public schooled, day cared, healthcared, employed, housed, and distributed? PEOPLE.

shortwave · March 29, 2009, 06:23 AM

IMO, this is a BS excuse being used by this administration to fuel the re-instatement of the AWB - ignorant. In a nutshell: ignorant people, elected ignorant officials so it should`nt be a surprise as to the ignorant policy ideas. Sad part is the many of the same people who bought the Obama 'kool-aid' to get him elected will buy these ridiculous policies. Its only just begun!

Quote:

One also has to consider the U.S. sold the Mexican gov`t. a few years ago ,

The U.S. has been selling/trading arms all over the world forever. Giving the BATFE the benefit of the doubt(thats scary), how can they prove the U.S. guns did`nt come from another country we sold them to.

Hey Mexico! For years your country,dirty politicians and drug cartels have been getting fat off the dope you grow and smuggle into the U.S. You never complained then and now the animal(drug cartels) you`ve created/condoned is about to overthrow you. In years past your assistance in border patrol has been a joke. Why! Cause again, you were making to much dirty money. Couple that with the fact that the millions of illegal Mexican immigrants currently in the U.S.(again thanks Mex. for your help at the border) costing taxpayer`s here billions per year, you`ve got your nerve coming to this country today asking our gov`t/people for anything

To early in the morning for my blood pressure to be 'ON TILT'!

chemgirlie · March 29, 2009, 06:31 AM

I think you also have to look at what the definition of "guns that come from the US" is. Are they guns that were formerly owned by the Mexican army, other countries that we sold guns guns to who then had them stolen or sold them to Mexico? When you say the guns "came from the US" do you mean legally bought in the US or do you mean some convoluted line of ownership that starts in the US and has one or more legal owners in between the US owner and the cartels?

The 90% statistic may or may not be true, but one could easily make it true by having a flexible definition of "came from the US". It seems that this flexibility of definitions is the lingual equivalent of "creative math".

THEZACHARIAS · March 29, 2009, 06:47 AM

All part of the new administrations "our bad" tactics. They spend so much time "taking responsibility" (translated here as "blaming everything on america") for every little thing thats wrong with the world that they cant even remember what really is and isnt our fault anymore.

shortwave · March 29, 2009, 07:14 AM

chemgirlie, +10. creative math =`s - gun figure`s our anti-gun admin. wants to fabricate to sell their BS to the same kool-aid drinker that elected them in the 1st place. Saw Hillary on TV the other night talking about how much the 94 AWB dropped crime rate in U.S.

. History shows that this type of continuos media brainwashing(with no statistics) is what sheep will eventually follow. Just think we`re only a couple months into this. Think I`ll get me an Obama T-shirt

!

ilbob · March 29, 2009, 03:56 PM

The BATFE has a long history of making misleading and dishonest statements, along with bald faced lies.

Its entirely possible that when they said the source of the guns was US, it was entirely true. It would not surprise me if a large number of guns sold to the Mexican government, or with their connivance, ended up in the drug cartel hands. Those guns could have come from the US.

raimius · March 29, 2009, 04:55 PM

Simple logic..

Why would the cartels pay $20k for a Title II AK-47 at an Arizona gun store, when they could get one for $250 from other South American countries (or FALs/M16s from their local gov. officials)?

Or...
Why would they pay $800-1400 for a semi-auto rifle, when they could buy an full-auto AK/M-16 from their southern neighbors or corrupt officials?

Could they be shopping in the US for high-quality, semi-auto rifles and pistols? Sure! But to get "assault weapons" or NFA weapons in the US is economically stupid. I have faith in the cartels' ability to account for their costs...

Tennessee Gentleman · March 29, 2009, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raimus

Why would the cartels pay $20k for a Title II AK-47 at an Arizona gun store, when they could get one for $250 from other South American countries (or FALs/M16s from their local gov. officials)?
Or...
Why would they pay $800-1400 for a semi-auto rifle, when they could buy an full-auto AK/M-16 from their southern neighbors or corrupt officials?

They wouldn't be able to buy FA in a gun store but they could buy an AR-15 or semiauto AK. The question is: Is that what they are buying?

As to their "southern neighbors", I don't know what they charge or what they have.

Ruthless4christ · March 29, 2009, 06:20 PM

The truth is as has been stated above, for a around 300 buck you can get a full auto ak-47 in mexico ( try getting one that cheap here on the street). It aint gonna happen. What is happening in Mexico is not the government fighting drug lords, it is A cival war between two factions struggling for the same thing.. Sway over the national drug trade. And if the USA helps the mexican government it will be helping one mob gain the upper hand over another.

MatBananas717 · March 29, 2009, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Yes it would be easy to get a gun from the US into Mexico. But it would be rather expensive to pay people to buy guns in the US just to send them to Mexico. It would be much easier and far cheaper to have full auto weapons from Africa, or a number of South American countries brought over.

You think it's cheaper to smuggle guns by boat/plane across the Atlantic or Pacific, rather than across the Texas/Mexico border? Or to bribe soldiers/police officials into giving up their automatic weapons?

Not saying it doesn't happen, but how do you figure it's cheaper?

Quote:

I still don't believe that all or even most of the weapons had anything to do with the US. Just a guess, but I bet it's less than 10%.

Believe what you want, but take a look at the pictures of the guns being confiscated. Many of them are obviously weapons designed for the civilian market, like the PS90 carbine (can you name a government that uses this version of the P90?)

MatBananas717 · March 29, 2009, 06:27 PM

Quote:

There were 150k deserters form the Mexican Army in the past year.

Most took thier weapons with them.

Guess where they ended up.

The stuff they picked up is not available to you and me in ANY gun show

less you have a class III

150K deserters? That sounds a bit high, considering the Mexican Army has only about 200,000 active-duty personnel. I've heard figures of 100,000 in the past decade, but not the past year.

If most of them are taking weapons with them, then wouldn't we be seeing more full-auto G3s and FX-05s in the hands of the cartels?

I have explained before that many of the weapons being confiscated from the cartels are in fact civvie-legal semi-autos. And even some of the full-auto weapons might be converted.

ISC · March 29, 2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

this is a BS excuse being used by this administration to fuel the re-instatement of the AWB - ignorant. In a nutshell: ignorant people, elected ignorant officials so it should`nt be a surprise as to the ignorant policy ideas. Sad part is the many of the same people who bought the Obama 'kool-aid' to get him elected will buy these ridiculous policies. Its only just begun!

I agree. You see alot of empty claims by administration shills with no vidence backing up their claims. The media is complicit in assisting the perpetuation of their lies.

MatBananas717 · March 29, 2009, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Also note that the Mexican government has not supplied serial numbers for the massive numbers of weapons that supposedly came from the US. If they really were coming from the US you would think that they could come up with a list a mile long.

If they did, I would bet they would confirm what scorpion_tyr said, the guns were originally sold by the US government.

The U.S. government may have sold them M16/CAR-15/M4 variants, but not AKs, or semi-auto PS90 carbines and Five-Seven pistols. Or gold-plated Desert Eagles like the one from a photo I posted in another topic.

The serial numbers are usually filed off. This is standard practice in gun trafficking.

MatBananas717 · March 29, 2009, 06:33 PM

Quote:

I agree. You see alot of empty claims by administration shills with no vidence backing up their claims. The media is complicit in assisting the perpetuation of their lies.

I see just as many of the same "empty claims" coming from the pro-gun community, including many people in this same topic. Do you really think the pro-RKBA community is any more objective than the Mexican government, the Obama administration, or the media?

I don't know exactly how many guns are coming into Mexico from the U.S. 90% may be rather high. But it's definitely a very large number. A quick look at pictures of the types of weapons confiscated from the cartels should make this pretty obvious.

MatBananas717 · March 29, 2009, 06:36 PM

Also, I find it interesting that pro-gunners criticize the media until they're blue in the face for making inaccurate statements about guns and gun control, and yet you're all taking the media's word for it that all of the guns being used by the cartels are fully-automatic. If the media mistakes semi-auto "assault weapons" for machine guns, don't you expect them to do the same when talking about the cartel's weapons?

Have any of you bothered to ask yourselves what percentage of the guns confiscated from the cartels are actually full-auto weapons, as opposed to semi-autos that get mistaken for automatic weapons?

alloy · March 29, 2009, 06:38 PM

90% of what....is what? Maybe if the media would do its part, i wouldnt be so skeptical about the quantification. They got the guy there talkin....ask the questions because im genuinely curious. How many captured guns were smuggled from the US? Not made in the US, not including those originally sold to the mexican govt...and not some % of some unknown quantity. I think we would all like to be better informed. Anti, and RKBA.

Ruthless4christ · March 29, 2009, 06:49 PM

I havelived in latin america for many years. These are full auto weapons. They can hold thier own against thier respective governments armed forces. And once again, they run anywhere from 250-500 bucks depending on the gun. Hmmm not understanding how they could afford to sell them like that if they bought them here.

madmag · March 29, 2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Where does the BATFE get this 90% figure and how would they know?

They don't. They just invent the numbers.

I worked in Mexico (industry) for over 30 years. The fact is probably nobody (including me) knows the numbers of illegal firearms and their origin. But I can tell you that many do come from South America. No benefit in Mexico complaining about South America.

Most everything in the Government sector is corrupt in Mexico. If you want the numbers to show that 90% are coming from the USA you just pay the right people and they will grab one of the 4 or 5 ATF agents in Mexico and show them some bogus catch. Why show them the thousands that come from Latin America?

The truth will out in the end....well maybe.

March 28, 2009, 11:20 PM	#1
Tennessee Gentleman Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,775	Guns in Mexico I have been listening to the news for several days and I saw a rep from the BATFE say that 90% of the guns used by the drug cartels in Mexico came from gun stores in the US. I have been trying to do more research but it seems all the news services use the same outlet and the stories are all the same. Now I can understand handguns, and how they could get them here at gunshows but the weapons I am seeing them retrieve from the drug gangs shown on the news are full auto and oher military arms like mortars. Last I looked Dick's Sporting Goods don't sell M2 Machine Guns. So my question is: 1. Where does the BATFE get this 90% figure and how would they know? 2. Are the weapons real assault weapons (full auto) or are they weapons like Ar-15, Mini-14s etc. 3. If they are true assault weapons how does the AWB stop drug gangs from getting them? 4. How after we get the truth can we particpate in stopping such misinformation if it is that? Whew! I feel better now __________________ "God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier.

March 28, 2009, 11:38 PM	#2
chemgirlie Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 331	One also has to consider that the US sold the Mexican government guns a few years ago. Obviously the Mexican government/military is corrupt, and many of these guns have made their way to cartels/other criminals. One could say that these guns came from the US and leave out the part where they were legally sold to the Mexican government and not from gun shows or the black market. Last edited by chemgirlie; March 29, 2009 at 01:14 AM. Reason: spelling

March 29, 2009, 03:17 AM	#6
stevelyn Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Fairbanksan in exile to Aleutian Hell Posts: 2,655	I wouldn't believe a word the ATF has to say. They manufacture evidence and lie all the time. Why would a report on Mexico be any different? This whole thing about US guns in Mexico is a contrived lie that the govt, their toadies in the media, socialists and the anti-gun groups are pushing to sway public opinion in favor of an new and improved AWB. I can almost bet you that there is a PR campaign being waged in the same manner as Wolfowitz and company did with PR firms for the Iraq war. Drug cartels have no shortage of money. The same Central and South American sources that arm groups like FMLN, FARC, Shining Path and other low-grade guerilla groups, will gladly accept cash from the cartels. I would even bet that ol' Hugo in Venezuela and Raul in Cuba aren't above moving weapons from or through their countries to the cartels just to screw with the US. I'm sure they have their "Yuri Orlovs" too to maintain several degrees of separation. Let's not forget that a big source is from corrupt elements in the corrupt Mexico govt itself. __________________ Stop Allowing Our Schools To Be Soft Targets! http://fastersaveslives.org/ East Moose. Wear Wolf. Last edited by Glenn E. Meyer; March 30, 2009 at 09:53 AM. Reason: Nazi references and scatological references are uncalled for.

March 29, 2009, 05:49 AM	#7
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	Also note that the Mexican government has not supplied serial numbers for the massive numbers of weapons that supposedly came from the US. If they really were coming from the US you would think that they could come up with a list a mile long. If they did, I would bet they would confirm what scorpion_tyr said, the guns were originally sold by the US government. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

March 29, 2009, 07:14 AM	#12
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	chemgirlie, +10. creative math =`s - gun figure`s our anti-gun admin. wants to fabricate to sell their BS to the same kool-aid drinker that elected them in the 1st place. Saw Hillary on TV the other night talking about how much the 94 AWB dropped crime rate in U.S.. History shows that this type of continuos media brainwashing(with no statistics) is what sheep will eventually follow. Just think we`re only a couple months into this. Think I`ll get me an Obama T-shirt!

March 29, 2009, 12:22 AM	#3
scorpion_tyr Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2008 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,326	I don't think we'll ever find the answer to this one. I find it hard to believe that illegal arms are making their way from the US into Mexico. I can easily see it going the other way. Yes it would be easy to get a gun from the US into Mexico. But it would be rather expensive to pay people to buy guns in the US just to send them to Mexico. It would be much easier and far cheaper to have full auto weapons from Africa, or a number of South American countries brought over. What they're probably talking about is that the firearms are ones that the US supplied to other countries. Yes, we supplied mortars, AK-47's, M-16's, etc. If it can be carried by 1-4 people we sold it to them. Years later currupt governments lead the weapons to find their way other places, like Mexico. I still don't believe that all or even most of the weapons had anything to do with the US. Just a guess, but I bet it's less than 10%. __________________ “Nature intended me for the tranquil pursuits of science, by rendering them my supreme delight.” - Thomas Jefferson

March 29, 2009, 12:32 AM	#4
Mr Odd Six Junior member Join Date: March 17, 2009 Location: Washingrad not DC Posts: 133	There were 150k deserters form the Mexican Army in the past year. Most took thier weapons with them. Guess where they ended up. The stuff they picked up is not available to you and me in ANY gun show less you have a class III

March 29, 2009, 01:18 AM	#5
googabeest Member Join Date: December 5, 2008 Posts: 50	Found a pretty interesting article about Mexican guns linked from John Lott's site http://www.gunnewsdaily.com/rw807.html

March 29, 2009, 06:31 AM	#10
chemgirlie Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 331	I think you also have to look at what the definition of "guns that come from the US" is. Are they guns that were formerly owned by the Mexican army, other countries that we sold guns guns to who then had them stolen or sold them to Mexico? When you say the guns "came from the US" do you mean legally bought in the US or do you mean some convoluted line of ownership that starts in the US and has one or more legal owners in between the US owner and the cartels? The 90% statistic may or may not be true, but one could easily make it true by having a flexible definition of "came from the US". It seems that this flexibility of definitions is the lingual equivalent of "creative math".

March 29, 2009, 06:47 AM	#11
THEZACHARIAS Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 537	All part of the new administrations "our bad" tactics. They spend so much time "taking responsibility" (translated here as "blaming everything on america") for every little thing thats wrong with the world that they cant even remember what really is and isnt our fault anymore.

March 29, 2009, 03:56 PM	#13
ilbob Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2006 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 515	The BATFE has a long history of making misleading and dishonest statements, along with bald faced lies. Its entirely possible that when they said the source of the guns was US, it was entirely true. It would not surprise me if a large number of guns sold to the Mexican government, or with their connivance, ended up in the drug cartel hands. Those guns could have come from the US. __________________ bob Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

March 29, 2009, 04:55 PM	#14
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Simple logic.. Why would the cartels pay $20k for a Title II AK-47 at an Arizona gun store, when they could get one for $250 from other South American countries (or FALs/M16s from their local gov. officials)? Or... Why would they pay $800-1400 for a semi-auto rifle, when they could buy an full-auto AK/M-16 from their southern neighbors or corrupt officials? Could they be shopping in the US for high-quality, semi-auto rifles and pistols? Sure! But to get "assault weapons" or NFA weapons in the US is economically stupid. I have faith in the cartels' ability to account for their costs...

March 29, 2009, 06:20 PM	#16
Ruthless4christ Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2007 Location: CNY Posts: 790	Its a joke The truth is as has been stated above, for a around 300 buck you can get a full auto ak-47 in mexico ( try getting one that cheap here on the street). It aint gonna happen. What is happening in Mexico is not the government fighting drug lords, it is A cival war between two factions struggling for the same thing.. Sway over the national drug trade. And if the USA helps the mexican government it will be helping one mob gain the upper hand over another.

March 29, 2009, 06:36 PM	#22
MatBananas717 Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2008 Posts: 134	Also, I find it interesting that pro-gunners criticize the media until they're blue in the face for making inaccurate statements about guns and gun control, and yet you're all taking the media's word for it that all of the guns being used by the cartels are fully-automatic. If the media mistakes semi-auto "assault weapons" for machine guns, don't you expect them to do the same when talking about the cartel's weapons? Have any of you bothered to ask yourselves what percentage of the guns confiscated from the cartels are actually full-auto weapons, as opposed to semi-autos that get mistaken for automatic weapons? __________________ Administrator at the Internet Movie Firearms Database (IMFDB). Please check us out, at http://www.imfdb.org/

March 29, 2009, 06:49 PM	#24
Ruthless4christ Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2007 Location: CNY Posts: 790	Matbananas717 I havelived in latin america for many years. These are full auto weapons. They can hold thier own against thier respective governments armed forces. And once again, they run anywhere from 250-500 bucks depending on the gun. Hmmm not understanding how they could afford to sell them like that if they bought them here.