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March 23, 2024, 02:53 PM | #26 | |
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March 23, 2024, 05:39 PM | #27 | |
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I've been shooting 1911s since 1967 and I have never encountered any description of the 1911 (or any similar action pistol) that describes the barrel as tilting up.
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March 23, 2024, 05:40 PM | #28 | ||
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March 23, 2024, 06:02 PM | #29 | |
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Last edited by PzGren; March 23, 2024 at 06:12 PM. |
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March 23, 2024, 06:51 PM | #30 |
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To put it simply, the John Moses Browning locking system with the link will pull the front of the barrel down with the slide stop after a little travel and the front of the barrel will be pulled down after the barrel and slide separate and be in line with the bushing, which is tightly fitted to assure accuracy. The modified Browning lock up is working very differently, has no barrel bushing and tilts over the whole plane.
Last edited by PzGren; March 23, 2024 at 06:57 PM. |
March 23, 2024, 07:13 PM | #31 | |
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March 23, 2024, 07:56 PM | #32 |
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The breech links down but the slide is moving back so the muzzle rocks up on the fulcrum of the bushing.
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March 23, 2024, 08:04 PM | #33 |
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Take your 1911A1 and lock the slide back. Now look at the barrel, Is it perfectly parallel with the slide or the frame?? It is not.
No, its rarely described that way, but it is the way it works. Pull down one end of a steel rod, the other end moves up. Might not move much, or enough to be easily noticed, but it has to move, or the barrel will be bent, and we know that's not happening.
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March 23, 2024, 08:11 PM | #34 |
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March 23, 2024, 08:49 PM | #35 | |
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This IS an interesting question. Obviously a fixed barrel HAS to have more potential mechanical accuracy potential if we exclude all other factors. But other factors come into play. The venerable Sig P210 is world renowned for accuracy... and it uses the JMB breech lock system (which tilts the barrel).
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March 23, 2024, 10:30 PM | #36 | |
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Don't forget to include the quality of execution along with the design features. Its a total package, sights, trigger, barrel, how they fit and function together, and then the ammunition is a whole different layer on top of all that. And then there is the condition of each individual specimen, something one should not take as indicative of every gun of that design, but people often do. I have a Colt Govt Model that will put 5 shots into one ragged hole at 25 yds. I had a 1943 Remington Rand 1911A1 that would consistently group 8 inches at that same distance. Fixed barrel guns have the potential to be quite accurate. Few are, because the majority of fixed barrel pistols are models that have coarse sights and poor triggers. There are, of course, exceptions.
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March 23, 2024, 10:38 PM | #37 |
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The usual ISSF center fire is a blowback .32 which is certainly an exception.
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March 24, 2024, 05:46 AM | #38 |
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The SIG Hammerli P240 was available in .22 l.r., .32 S&W Long WC, and .38 Special WC and was winning a lot of matches back in the day. In the U.S. a few Bullseye shooters have converted the .32 S&W Long to .32 ACP, since nobody imported the H&N bullets and the .32 ACP is as accurate.
While the P240 is a good example of a centerfire pistol that is not locked, the .38 S&W Special Wadcutter is not developing a lot of recoil force. |
March 24, 2024, 06:16 AM | #39 | ||
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To say otherwise would mean that aiming at a target that is above the gun requires tilting the barrel down. Quote:
What you are saying is that it doesn't pivot in the middle and that is correct, but by any normal definition of the word 'tilt', if one end of an object tilts and the other does not then it must bend. To tilt merely means to incline an object. That can be done by lowering one end and raising the other, pivoting the object in the middle, raising one end AND lowering the other, raising one end and then raising the other end more, etc., etc.
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March 24, 2024, 06:42 AM | #40 |
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The article I found says the P240 .38 is recoil operated, slide stop/cam track tipping barrel. The .22 and .32 are blowback.
I wonder how many are still in use vs the various forward magazine .32s. The good old P208 .22 has sure outlasted the modernical P280. |
March 24, 2024, 05:01 PM | #41 |
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March 24, 2024, 05:07 PM | #42 |
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Here are some more delayed blowback pistols that use a roller delay. To my knowledge, they are the only roller delayed blowback pistol models in the world. All are German. It’s a very intricate design and not cheap to produce. No tilting barrels here.
Korriphila HSP701, HK P9S, Geiger GRP, and Korth PRS |
March 24, 2024, 06:37 PM | #43 |
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Brian,
the CZ52 used the roller lock behind the iron curtain. I had one of those with the normal 17 lb. trigger. |
March 24, 2024, 07:30 PM | #44 | |
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The CZ52 uses rollers to lock the breech momentarily. I don’t own a CZ52 any longer, but the Delta Top Gun uses the CZ’s roller locked breech design. It is a lot different than the delayed blowbacks I posted above. It’s also a gun with a non tilting barrel… Last edited by bac1023; March 24, 2024 at 07:38 PM. |
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March 25, 2024, 01:26 PM | #45 |
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Im sitting here racking my Hk P9, and the barrel doesnt tilt at all? Is it supposed to?
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March 25, 2024, 01:55 PM | #46 |
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The HK P9 is a blowback. No barrel tilt
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March 25, 2024, 02:02 PM | #47 |
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Jeff Cooper wrote that the P9 was made largely out of sheet metal stampings and plastic, "then they put the money they saved back into an elaborate barrel extension and roller bolt."
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March 25, 2024, 02:20 PM | #48 |
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Yes Jim. The quality is in the internals. Outwardly, it’s a fairly cheaply made pistol. Inside it’s very robust and complex.
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March 25, 2024, 03:02 PM | #49 |
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Walther p38.
Beretta 92. Steyr Hahn. Mauser c96. Femaru m37. Nambo type 14. Lugar parabellum. ... There are more. But they don't seem particularly more accurate. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk Last edited by tangolima; March 26, 2024 at 02:58 PM. |
March 26, 2024, 01:23 PM | #50 |
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Of note, the Beretta 92 was famous for the locking block breaking after thousands of rounds during its first years. Fairly, this was long ago rectified. They are accurate pistols. The head law enforcement firearms instructor for NC shot a Beretta 92 in competition for many years, and did quite well with it.
I still don't see many Berettas that are just inherently more accurate than a quality Glock, CZ, or good 1911.
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