MMM's Time out Chair (What a bunch of MORONS!)

WAGCEVP · April 14, 2002, 12:09 AM

This is good!

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:34 AM
Subject: MMM - The Time Out Chair

> A moment for the idiots:
>
> -----
> http://www.millionmommarch.org/featu...eout/index.asp
>
> The Time Out Chair features people, organizations and corporations who put
> sensible gun practices on the back burner in favor of the out of touch gun
> lobby. Mom's know who's been bad and who's been good and we want to make
> sure that everyone knows who is in the time out chair and why they deserve
> it.
>
> Time Out Chair
> 1. John Lott
> 2. Law Enforcement Alliance of America (LEAA)
> 3. John Ashcroft
> 4. Eddie Eagle Program
> 5. Lowe's Hardware
> 6. Michigan Governor John Engler
>
> 1. Pro-gun "scholar" John Lott gets a seat in the Time Out Chair for using
> the September 11 terrorist attacks to call for more guns on airplanes.
Lott,
> who authored the widely-discredited book "More Guns, Less Crime,"
suggested
> in a September 28 column in the Wall Street Journal that, not only should
> pilots be armed but that passengers should also be allowed to carry guns
on
> planes. He then exploits a national tragedy even further by saying our
> nation would be safer if more people carried hidden handguns everywhere,
not
> just on planes.
>
> Lott fails to recognize a simple fact: more guns equal more violence.
> America is safer when steps are taken to prevent terrorists from getting
> weapons in the first place, not when citizens are engaged in gunfights on
> airplanes or on our streets....

Futo Inu · April 14, 2002, 12:31 AM

Widely-discredited my arse - the only ppl discrediting it are HCI types. Certainly, no scholar has been able to.

I think it's also funny that they put Liddy Dole in the time out chair (or something similar), because she's done pretty much a 180 on her stance on gun control for her Senate run. Now neither side trusts her on this issue. She's a wolf in sheeps clothing - I would bet she would vote on all "reasonable gun control" that comes down the pike, in accordance with her stance at all times past, only recently changed.

gorlitsa · April 14, 2002, 12:33 AM

Quote:

America is safer when steps are taken to prevent terrorists from getting weapons in the first place,

Gee, and here I thought Americans were safer when steps are taken to prevent terrorists from continuing to breathe....

WOLV314 · April 14, 2002, 03:36 AM

OK. They get to use a time out chair. How about us getting to use the woodshed?

El Rojo · April 14, 2002, 04:22 AM

Are they serious? I like how they spout off their garbage like anyone actually cares. The MMM is dead!

I can't believe they attacked Eddie Eagle. Why wouldn't you want children to know proper gun safety? How do they know Eddie Eagle doesn't prevent gun accidents. When I was a kid, there were guns all over the house. Does this mean I messed around with them when the parents left? Yeah sometimes I did. I also knew how to be safe with the firearms, so I never shot myself or anyone else.

MMM is a bunch of idiots. Plain and simple.

LonWilson · April 14, 2002, 05:05 AM

Did anyone tell these dumb bitches that the terrorists used BOXCUTTERS as weapons? Are they proposing that my father go through screenings and background checks in order to buy a knife or a boxcutter (a neccesity as a construction worker)?

They are stupid, and they are dumb. "Lott fails to recognize a simple fact: more guns equal more violence."

Uh huh, can you get an actual person to take his study apart affectively?

"Lott,
> who authored the widely-discredited book "More Guns, Less Crime,""

So Mike Belliesiels and "Arming America" are accredited and true?

BogBabe · April 14, 2002, 06:51 AM

To update an old-liner: "How can you tell when a MMMoron is lying? Her lips are moving."

The only "discrediting" that's been done of Lott's book is, "We don't believe it, so it can't be true." No one has ever effectively discredited his research.

The "time out chair" is used by parents as a means to discipline young children. The MMMorons certainly behave as if they believe they are our parents and we are unruly children.

Can you really take seriously anything said by a group that uses a "time out chair" in national discourse?

Bog · April 14, 2002, 08:27 AM

For some reason, I keep hearing that old track, "Mother" from The Wall echoing through my mind.

Thank gh0d that the people who do this cover themselves in abjectly bad publicity by being obviously hysterical and numb-witted.

Time out chair, hmm? These people are pathetic. Still, if they want to insist on a having a powerless nation of state-control freaks, the 1st says they can call for it. At least it doesn't seem too likely that they'll get it, as long as the brain-equipped keep shouting them down.

It does astound me sometimes, though. Sixty million years of evolution resulting in a group of people who would far rather never have left Kindergarten. You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried...

Kaboom · April 14, 2002, 08:31 AM

Take the time out chair and crash in over the collective heads of the MMM.

WAGCEVP · April 14, 2002, 08:56 AM

Personally , Kaboom, I think they ought to take that "chair" and stick it up their collective @$$

**Don Gwinn** · April 14, 2002, 10:17 AM

If you buy the second edition of More Guns, Less Crime, Lott has provided something Bellesiles promised but never delivered--a reasoned defense of his work against all the criticism and attempts to "discredit" the work.
I can't find the holes critics claim to find. Most of the criticism revolves around allegations that "if you remove Florida (and a couple of other states I don't recall) from the equation, the improvement in crime rates is much less dramatic."

Well, pardon me, but:

1. If the improvement is "less dramatic," I take it that they admit that it's still better after the shall-issue law passes than before. What exactly is it they think this changes?

2. If you have to disregard facts and evidence to get the result you want, it's a FAKE. If Lott HAD excluded some states, they'd be screaming for his head. It would be positively Bellesiles-like.

BogBabe · April 14, 2002, 10:32 AM

Quote:

"if you remove Florida (and a couple of other states I don't recall) from the equation, the improvement in crime rates is much less dramatic."

Oh, sure. If we exclude the evidence from the states where shall-issue CCW works best, we'll get results that are a little bit closer to what we really want.

These people have their brains in a permanent time-out chair.

GnL · April 14, 2002, 10:34 AM

The NRA or GOA should offer free lifetime memberships to anyone who attains the honor of being in the MMM time out chair.

Calamity Jane · April 14, 2002, 10:46 AM

Quote:

The MMMorons certainly behave as if they believe they are our parents and we are unruly children.

Yup, and everything on their web site, with its third-grade reading level blatherings and stick-figure drawings, is tailored to speak to a gaggle of not-quite-adults, not-quite-children with soap flakes for brains, whose idea of scientific methodology would include consulting one's astrologer.

to the infinite power. I am horrified to even contemplate the notion that I might have the same chromosomal structure as these creatures.

Futo Inu · April 14, 2002, 11:08 AM

GnL - awesome idea!

dischord · April 14, 2002, 11:18 AM

Don't get so worked up over the MMM, folks.

It is a dead organization. It is nothing but a paper sham front for the Brady Campaign, which absorbed the MMM trademark when the organization was about to go under last year.

As for the time out chair/apple pie award. Those haven't changed in months.

Look at their website. It is nothing but a mirror-site for the Brady Campaign.

Mike in VA · April 14, 2002, 11:51 AM

It's interesting to see that the MMM is a practitioner of the "Big Lie" style of propaganda, they think that if they repeat the lie often enough ift becomes the 'truth'.

They need to be acquainted with the Theory of Duh (disarming innocent people does not protect innocent people)

They really are morons (and that's the truth).

**4V50 Gary** · April 14, 2002, 11:51 AM

Time out for Eddie Eagle too? Gee, the MMM really needs time out themselves.

I think when the MMM has a fundraiser, we should all pledge generously and then renege on the pledge. Be funny if they budgeted for that amount and *poof!*, it's gone.

Zundfolge · April 14, 2002, 12:01 PM

Every time someone brings up the MMM's Time Out Chair, I always think to myself that it would be a great honor to be listed there

Fred Hansen · April 14, 2002, 12:57 PM

I think we should develop the "Time In" (tm) chair. A place of repose for all the folks who strive and suffer "for the children". Since the Million Momala March is an outdoor event, a 6,000 watt* honda generator should power the "Time In" (tm) chair quite nicely.

* We can turn the amps down a tad. It would be fun to try to shock a little sense in to these imbeciles.

Calamity Jane · April 14, 2002, 12:57 PM

Quote from hubby on the MMMorons:

"If brains were powder, they couldn't fill up a .22 short."

WAGCEVP · April 14, 2002, 01:18 PM

don't under estimate them......

CrociJA · April 14, 2002, 05:19 PM

It's disconcerting and a little sad to think of some of the people who are members of HCI, MMM, etc...
My guess is that they want or "need" to feel important, so they pick up any cause simply because it makes them feel "good".
Right or wrong do not enter into the equation, the only thing that matters is that they feel "good".
They would strip any right that doesn't directly effect them and make it into a privledge. Something that the military does quite handily in training new recruits.
One thing that I am really tired of hearing, is when one of these "anti's" inevitably brings up the fact that a family member, friend or associate was killed or killed themselves with a gun.
It's almost become a "badge" of honor. Disgusting.
Even than I doubt what they say is true, they are just feeding on a tradegy.
Rosie is a perfect example, personal feelings aside, I still remember the footage when she tried to pick a fight with T. Selleck.
Sad, sad little people. Of course when your a talk show host the rules of the little people no longer apply, right?
Rosie O'Donnel the Jane Fonda of the 90's.

Jon

DonP · April 15, 2002, 09:40 AM

Of course these people are way off the mark intellectually.

But ... they have succeeded in "dumbing down the message" to a level that appeals to the average media editor, TV or print. They have successfully given them a "sound byte" that fits into a short column or as a small item for a local paper. And they do it on a regular basis which makes it easy for an editor putting together a newspaper to count on "something" from them on a regular basis.

They (The MMM,HCI types) realize that the average newspaper is designed to fit a 6th grade reading level (Heck, the Wall Street Journal is only written for a 9th grade level!). They have brilliantly tuned their message to the audience they need to reach, people that aren't going to spend too much time thinking about anything too deeply, but just may vote on an emotional issue.

I believe that sometimes we (second amendment believers) make the mistake of thinking that everyone else paid attention in civics class or history the way most of us did. The MMM/HCI message is reaching people that don't want conscious or considered thought to bother them while they watch the latest soap opera or tune into the Cubs game (sorry, I'm a Sox fan). We have to understand that a lot of the people that vote Bozo's like Schumer, Feinstein, Blagoyevitch etc. (apologies to clowns everywhere) have no idea what their rights are!

If we are going to ever succeed we need to gear at least parts of our message and thoughts to a very basic level. "Guns can save you family's lives" etc. That's why many of Oleg's posters are so powerful. They deliver a succinct message with seven or fewer word and a powerful graphic image. They are simple to understand and evoke powerful emotions.

I wish the NRA or GOA could afford a series of ads that profile the variety, age, gender, race etc., of people that have protected their family or themselves with a gun, whether thay had to fire it or not. Short,. graphic powerful messages that force the MMM/HCI people to call them liars or try and discredit people like; "Carol, a young mother that drove off her violent and physically abusive ex because she had a pump shotgun at home" etc.

Think of these messages like roadside billboards, the message has to be legible and understood at 65 mph. Well so do ours, and they have to appeal to both the emotional and rational sides of people. We all know that people that base their "beliefs" on feelings will never be persuaded by facts and figures. But introduce them to a few women that have genuinely protected themselves or their children with a firearm and they start to think a little differently.

Just my .02 guys FWIW.

Don P.

April 14, 2002, 12:09 AM	#1
WAGCEVP Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2000 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,995	MMM's Time out Chair (What a bunch of MORONS!) This is good! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:34 AM Subject: MMM - The Time Out Chair > A moment for the idiots: > > ----- > http://www.millionmommarch.org/featu...eout/index.asp > > The Time Out Chair features people, organizations and corporations who put > sensible gun practices on the back burner in favor of the out of touch gun > lobby. Mom's know who's been bad and who's been good and we want to make > sure that everyone knows who is in the time out chair and why they deserve > it. > > Time Out Chair > 1. John Lott > 2. Law Enforcement Alliance of America (LEAA) > 3. John Ashcroft > 4. Eddie Eagle Program > 5. Lowe's Hardware > 6. Michigan Governor John Engler > > 1. Pro-gun "scholar" John Lott gets a seat in the Time Out Chair for using > the September 11 terrorist attacks to call for more guns on airplanes. Lott, > who authored the widely-discredited book "More Guns, Less Crime," suggested > in a September 28 column in the Wall Street Journal that, not only should > pilots be armed but that passengers should also be allowed to carry guns on > planes. He then exploits a national tragedy even further by saying our > nation would be safer if more people carried hidden handguns everywhere, not > just on planes. > > Lott fails to recognize a simple fact: more guns equal more violence. > America is safer when steps are taken to prevent terrorists from getting > weapons in the first place, not when citizens are engaged in gunfights on > airplanes or on our streets....

April 14, 2002, 12:31 AM	#2
Futo Inu Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 1999 Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Posts: 3,629	Widely-discredited my arse - the only ppl discrediting it are HCI types. Certainly, no scholar has been able to. I think it's also funny that they put Liddy Dole in the time out chair (or something similar), because she's done pretty much a 180 on her stance on gun control for her Senate run. Now neither side trusts her on this issue. She's a wolf in sheeps clothing - I would bet she would vote on all "reasonable gun control" that comes down the pike, in accordance with her stance at all times past, only recently changed. __________________ "You are NOT Joseph's father, Hank. You are not supposed to take over until Dale is gunned down by federal agents - that is the agreement." --Peggy

April 14, 2002, 03:36 AM	#4
WOLV314 Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2000 Location: El Republica de Texas Posts: 241	OK. They get to use a time out chair. How about us getting to use the woodshed? __________________ "In case of emergency, break glass, scream, bleed to death" RIP-Gunslinger 5/17/02 NRA Life Member Dysfuntional Ordinary Citizen Who Possesses Weapons

April 14, 2002, 04:22 AM	#5
El Rojo Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2000 Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 2,062	Are they serious? I like how they spout off their garbage like anyone actually cares. The MMM is dead! I can't believe they attacked Eddie Eagle. Why wouldn't you want children to know proper gun safety? How do they know Eddie Eagle doesn't prevent gun accidents. When I was a kid, there were guns all over the house. Does this mean I messed around with them when the parents left? Yeah sometimes I did. I also knew how to be safe with the firearms, so I never shot myself or anyone else. MMM is a bunch of idiots. Plain and simple. __________________ Get Some!

April 14, 2002, 06:51 AM	#7
BogBabe Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2001 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 568	To update an old-liner: "How can you tell when a MMMoron is lying? Her lips are moving." The only "discrediting" that's been done of Lott's book is, "We don't believe it, so it can't be true." No one has ever effectively discredited his research. The "time out chair" is used by parents as a means to discipline young children. The MMMorons certainly behave as if they believe they are our parents and we are unruly children. Can you really take seriously anything said by a group that uses a "time out chair" in national discourse? __________________ "We are free not for the collective, not for utility, not for practicality, not for beauty or divinity or dignity or art. We are free because we cannot be otherwise, ever, no matter what. We are free because we cannot be chained by anyone without our consent." --Greg Swann, Let 'em eat steak

April 14, 2002, 05:05 AM	#6
LonWilson Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2002 Location: Aloha, Oregon Posts: 759	Did anyone tell these dumb bitches that the terrorists used BOXCUTTERS as weapons? Are they proposing that my father go through screenings and background checks in order to buy a knife or a boxcutter (a neccesity as a construction worker)? They are stupid, and they are dumb. "Lott fails to recognize a simple fact: more guns equal more violence." Uh huh, can you get an actual person to take his study apart affectively? "Lott, > who authored the widely-discredited book "More Guns, Less Crime,"" So Mike Belliesiels and "Arming America" are accredited and true?

April 14, 2002, 08:27 AM	#8
Bog Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2002 Location: England. Where Great Britain used to be. Posts: 776	For some reason, I keep hearing that old track, "Mother" from The Wall echoing through my mind. Thank gh0d that the people who do this cover themselves in abjectly bad publicity by being obviously hysterical and numb-witted. Time out chair, hmm? These people are pathetic. Still, if they want to insist on a having a powerless nation of state-control freaks, the 1st says they can call for it. At least it doesn't seem too likely that they'll get it, as long as the brain-equipped keep shouting them down. It does astound me sometimes, though. Sixty million years of evolution resulting in a group of people who would far rather never have left Kindergarten. You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried... __________________ Venetian Blinds: Sunlight with Scanlines.

April 14, 2002, 08:31 AM	#9
Kaboom Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2000 Location: North Mo. Posts: 640	Take the time out chair and crash in over the collective heads of the MMM.

April 14, 2002, 08:56 AM	#10
WAGCEVP Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2000 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,995	It's a good thing theu don't believe in spanking abd sending them to their rooms, hu Personally , Kaboom, I think they ought to take that "chair" and stick it up their collective @$$

April 14, 2002, 10:17 AM	#11
Don Gwinn Staff Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,914	If you buy the second edition of More Guns, Less Crime, Lott has provided something Bellesiles promised but never delivered--a reasoned defense of his work against all the criticism and attempts to "discredit" the work. I can't find the holes critics claim to find. Most of the criticism revolves around allegations that "if you remove Florida (and a couple of other states I don't recall) from the equation, the improvement in crime rates is much less dramatic." Well, pardon me, but: 1. If the improvement is "less dramatic," I take it that they admit that it's still better after the shall-issue law passes than before. What exactly is it they think this changes? 2. If you have to disregard facts and evidence to get the result you want, it's a FAKE. If Lott HAD excluded some states, they'd be screaming for his head. It would be positively Bellesiles-like. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Gwinn: Chicago Gun Rights Examiner

April 14, 2002, 10:34 AM	#13
GnL Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2000 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 322	The NRA or GOA should offer free lifetime memberships to anyone who attains the honor of being in the MMM time out chair. __________________ NRA GOA (Life) SAF JPFO SAS "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken

April 14, 2002, 11:08 AM	#15
Futo Inu Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 1999 Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Posts: 3,629	GnL - awesome idea!

April 14, 2002, 11:18 AM	#16
dischord Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 945	Don't get so worked up over the MMM, folks. It is a dead organization. It is nothing but a paper sham front for the Brady Campaign, which absorbed the MMM trademark when the organization was about to go under last year. As for the time out chair/apple pie award. Those haven't changed in months. Look at their website. It is nothing but a mirror-site for the Brady Campaign. __________________ Another member of the TFL diaspora

April 14, 2002, 11:51 AM	#17
Mike in VA Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 1998 Location: Santa FE, NM Posts: 2,165	It's interesting to see that the MMM is a practitioner of the "Big Lie" style of propaganda, they think that if they repeat the lie often enough ift becomes the 'truth'. They need to be acquainted with the Theory of Duh (disarming innocent people does not protect innocent people) They really are morons (and that's the truth). __________________ M2 The Second Amendment IS homeland defense!

April 14, 2002, 11:51 AM	#18
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: California Posts: 13,263	Time out for Eddie Eagle too? Gee, the MMM really needs time out themselves. I think when the MMM has a fundraiser, we should all pledge generously and then renege on the pledge. Be funny if they budgeted for that amount and poof!, it's gone. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

April 14, 2002, 12:01 PM	#19
Zundfolge Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2001 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 1,751	Every time someone brings up the MMM's Time Out Chair, I always think to myself that it would be a great honor to be listed there __________________ "There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws...you create a nation of law-breakers â€“ and then you cash in on guilt." Ayn Rand

April 14, 2002, 12:57 PM	#20
Fred Hansen Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2001 Location: The middle of WWIII Posts: 3,340	I think we should develop the "Time In" (tm) chair. A place of repose for all the folks who strive and suffer "for the children". Since the Million Momala March is an outdoor event, a 6,000 watt* honda generator should power the "Time In" (tm) chair quite nicely. * We can turn the amps down a tad. It would be fun to try to shock a little sense in to these imbeciles. __________________ "This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! -- I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?" Michael Moore

April 14, 2002, 12:57 PM	#21
Calamity Jane Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2001 Location: East Tennessee Posts: 902	Quote from hubby on the MMMorons: "If brains were powder, they couldn't fill up a .22 short." __________________ CJ “The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.” ~ Ernest Hemingway

April 14, 2002, 01:18 PM	#22
WAGCEVP Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2000 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,995	MMM is synonymous with anti gun folks (female) don't under estimate them......

April 14, 2002, 05:19 PM	#23
CrociJA Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Alachua, FL., USA Posts: 236	It's disconcerting and a little sad to think of some of the people who are members of HCI, MMM, etc... My guess is that they want or "need" to feel important, so they pick up any cause simply because it makes them feel "good". Right or wrong do not enter into the equation, the only thing that matters is that they feel "good". They would strip any right that doesn't directly effect them and make it into a privledge. Something that the military does quite handily in training new recruits. One thing that I am really tired of hearing, is when one of these "anti's" inevitably brings up the fact that a family member, friend or associate was killed or killed themselves with a gun. It's almost become a "badge" of honor. Disgusting. Even than I doubt what they say is true, they are just feeding on a tradegy. Rosie is a perfect example, personal feelings aside, I still remember the footage when she tried to pick a fight with T. Selleck. Sad, sad little people. Of course when your a talk show host the rules of the little people no longer apply, right? Rosie O'Donnel the Jane Fonda of the 90's. Jon __________________ "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity." WB Yeats

April 15, 2002, 09:40 AM	#24
DonP Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 303	Stupid yes, but brilliant at playing the game Of course these people are way off the mark intellectually. But ... they have succeeded in "dumbing down the message" to a level that appeals to the average media editor, TV or print. They have successfully given them a "sound byte" that fits into a short column or as a small item for a local paper. And they do it on a regular basis which makes it easy for an editor putting together a newspaper to count on "something" from them on a regular basis. They (The MMM,HCI types) realize that the average newspaper is designed to fit a 6th grade reading level (Heck, the Wall Street Journal is only written for a 9th grade level!). They have brilliantly tuned their message to the audience they need to reach, people that aren't going to spend too much time thinking about anything too deeply, but just may vote on an emotional issue. I believe that sometimes we (second amendment believers) make the mistake of thinking that everyone else paid attention in civics class or history the way most of us did. The MMM/HCI message is reaching people that don't want conscious or considered thought to bother them while they watch the latest soap opera or tune into the Cubs game (sorry, I'm a Sox fan). We have to understand that a lot of the people that vote Bozo's like Schumer, Feinstein, Blagoyevitch etc. (apologies to clowns everywhere) have no idea what their rights are! If we are going to ever succeed we need to gear at least parts of our message and thoughts to a very basic level. "Guns can save you family's lives" etc. That's why many of Oleg's posters are so powerful. They deliver a succinct message with seven or fewer word and a powerful graphic image. They are simple to understand and evoke powerful emotions. I wish the NRA or GOA could afford a series of ads that profile the variety, age, gender, race etc., of people that have protected their family or themselves with a gun, whether thay had to fire it or not. Short,. graphic powerful messages that force the MMM/HCI people to call them liars or try and discredit people like; "Carol, a young mother that drove off her violent and physically abusive ex because she had a pump shotgun at home" etc. Think of these messages like roadside billboards, the message has to be legible and understood at 65 mph. Well so do ours, and they have to appeal to both the emotional and rational sides of people. We all know that people that base their "beliefs" on feelings will never be persuaded by facts and figures. But introduce them to a few women that have genuinely protected themselves or their children with a firearm and they start to think a little differently. Just my .02 guys FWIW. Don P.