Attention New Orleans area residents:

[tag]

I very rarely go shopping, but I recently found myself being dragged into the Esplanade Mall in Kenner. We went in through one of the Dillard's entrances, and as I always do in unfamilar buildings, I quickly checked for a "no ccw" sign. Seeing none, we went in to do some shopping. During the course of our trip, we walked past one of the mall entrances and I then noticed that they had a "no firearms" sign on the glass. A check at another mall entrance found a similar sign. Since I was armed, we quickly finished our shopping and left.

Discouraged by these notices, I sent an email to the manager of the mall asking them to modify these signs. I have included these e-mails below. These are in reverse order starting with my last reply:

_______

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I am unwilling to spend any more money in your mall. By forbidding trained, law abiding citizens from carrying legal concealed weapons, you are creating a situation where only the criminals have guns. I have made the decision not to frequent any establishment that forces me to become a victim. I will inform others in this area about your policy. I hope that, in time, you will realize that your policy does nothing to encourage the comfort or safety of your customers.

Sincerely,

XXXXX XXXXXXXX


----Original Message Follows----
From: "Alisha LaRoche" <alaroche@generalgrowth.com>
To:
Subject: Re: "no firearms" signs at Esplanade Mall
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 16:30:28 -0500



Thank you for taking the time to let us know of your concern. For the comfort of our shoppers, we will continue to request that firearms not be brought into the mall. We hope you will continue to shop at The Esplanade.
_______

XXXXX XXXXXXXX "xxxxxxxxx@XXX.com" on 04/24/2002 10:14:44 AM



To: Alisha LaRoche/General Growth Mgmt Inc/US@GGMI

cc:



Subject "no firearms" signs at Esplanade Mall
:

This e-mail is in response to the "no firearms" signs found at the entrances of the Esplanade Mall in Kenner, LA. Since the obvious intention of these signs is to prohibit the carry of firearms into the mall, and given that I am licensed to carry a firearm legally in the State of Louisiana, I am greatly troubled by these signs.

While it is understandable that you would want to prohibit the ILLEGAL carry of weapons to prevent crime in your mall, posting such a sign only prohibits those of us who carry legally and follow the law in the first place. Those who are carrying firearms illegally and are prone to commit crimes will not be deterred by these signs, as they are already violating the law. In essence, what you are doing is disarming trained, licensed individuals and creating an environment which caters to the predators in our society. Your
mall does not provide adequate security to prevent violent crime either inside the mall or within your parking lot. You should, therefore, be willing to allow licensed, trained individuals to carry concealed weapons to defend themselves and their families.

You should be assured that those of us who have obtained Concealed Weapons Permits through the Louisiana State Police are upstanding citizens. The state requires a substantial background check prior to issuing a permit. These checks involve both a local background check and a check with the FBI. These check are very complete and weed out any criminals or domestic abusers. And according the LSP web site, there have been no accidents or deaths attributed to permit holders in the state. In fact, since its inception, the LSP have only revoked 56 permits. Since over 13,708 permits have been issued, that's a revocation rate of .41%!!!. The state also requires training for every permit holder, which means that permit holders
are trained in proper safety and the laws involving the use of deadly force in the state of Louisiana. For further information on Concealed Weapons Permits in the state of Louisiana, go to their web site at www.lsp.org.

I would request that you modify your signs to allow the concealed carry of firearms by licensed citizens of the state of Louisiana. Until such time, I will not shop in your mall and I will advise other permit holders and those sympathetic to our cause to do the same. Please respond back to this e-mail so I may update others on your policies.

Sincerely,
Xxxxx Xxxxxxxx

_______

As you can see, it is the obvious intent of the managment of the Esplanade to prohibit the legal carry of concealed weapons by permit holders. I suggest that everyone interested in the RKBA and CCW in the state of LA send an e-mail to the manager letting her know that you will no longer shop in this mall until their policy is changed. We should not be spending our hard-earned dollars in any establishment that does not allow us our legal right to defend ourselves.

[DeputyVaughn]

Forget the management, take your campaign to the editorial page of tyhe local newspaper. The management will pay more attention. It worked here with "Quincy's" resturants.

Scott A. Vaughn

[tag]

you might be right, but I wanted to give management time to respond first. Besides, in left-minded New Orleans, I doubt our newspaper would be willing to print such a letter. Worth a try, though.

[CZ Gunner]

You're right, Times-Picayune initials aren't the T.P. for nothing! Editorial Page Editor: (504) 826-3432

[Stoic]

It is also important to let the management know that by depriving you of the means to defend yourself, they then become the insurers of their patrons' safety. They become responsible for maintaining the safety of their patrons by taking reasonable means to do so. In your next email, ask them who issues their Liability Insurance since they have now become your insurer and you'd like to let their Insurance Company know who their new insureds are in Louisiana when a criminal act happens to you at the Esplanade.

Also, ask them how many criminal incidents happen at the Esplanade per week, month, and year according to their records and the Kenner Police Department. Ask them about the known Gang activity at the Esplanade. Ask them how many people congregate at the Esplanade. Ask them how many security details they have employed per 100 people who travel through their facilities. Ask them whether their security details are armed. Ask for specific training requirements and background checks for their security personnel. Ask whether their security personnel make minimum wage. Ask what the turnover rate is for their security personnel. Ask them whether they would trust their safety to uneducated, marginally trained, minimum wage employees. Ask management whether the actual licensing and training requirements for their Security personnel exceeds that required for CCW permit holders in Louisiana. Ask them whether they will hire actual law enforcement personnel to secure their patrons rather than saving money at their patrons' expense and safety.

Ask them whether criminals who enter the Esplanade will obey the no Firearm signs.

Publish their email address.

Send me a PM if you'd like to talk about it some more.

[KC5TPA]

I did what you had spelled out for me:

Who issues your Liability Insurance since you have now become my insurer?
I'd also like to let your Insurance Company know who their new insured patrons are in Louisiana when a criminal act happens to me at The Esplanade.

How many criminal incidents happen at the Esplanade per week, month, and year according to your records and the Kenner Police Department?
What can you tell me about the known gang activity at The Esplanade?

How many people congregate at the Esplanade?

How many security details do you have employed per 100 people who travel through your facilities?

Are your security details armed? What are the specific training requirements and background checks for your security personnel?
Do your security personnel make minimum wage?

What is the turnover rate for your security personnel?

Does the actual licensing and training requirements for your security personnel exceeds that required for CCW permit holders in Louisiana?

Would you hire actual law enforcement personnel to secure your patrons rather than saving money at their patrons' expense and safety?

Do you think the criminals who enter The Esplanade obey the no Firearm signs?

I sent that along with a little Eggman care package

[Thumper]

Stoic

Excellent post. In fact, since you obviously have some experience in these matters, why not a new thread dedicated specifically to the legal ramifications of an establishment not allowing legal concealed carry?

I'd start it myself but I know enough to know that I don't know enough.

[tag]

Stoic:

Good response, I'm glad to see that there are a few interested people. Do you live in LA? If so, have you sent a letter to the Mall management yet? The e-mail address for the manager was in my original post.

While I value your input, case law in the LA Supreme court has ruled on this issue, and the ruling doesn't give much credit to your argument. In Posecai v. Wal-Mart Stores, Inc., it was determined that a business owner is only liable to provide any given level of security based on the forseeable risk to their invitees. This is determined by the "balancing test" which weighs the forseeable risk to the invitees v. the cost to the business owner. In Posecai, it was determined that Walmart did not have to provide security to the plantiff since they had a relatively low level of crime in their building and parking lot in the previous years (this "low level" included a murder.) The burden of proof, according to the court, lies with the plantiff. This test has been implemented in many states across the country.

So, therefore, an individual would stand very little chance of making any sort of claim against a business owner by claiming a lack of adequate security. To prove this would take many years and many thousands of dollars. Personally, I would rather focus my effort on getting other gun owners to make their intentions known to the mall managment than continue a war of words in which I know the outcome is not in my favor.

If you haven't sent an e-mail or a letter, please do so.

[Stoic]

Of course, I am very familar with that case. I actually have used it in my favor for clients who want to bring an action for lack of security against property owners since it states the cause-of-action. An attorney friend of mine who lives a few blocks away brought that case on behalf of the plaintiff--his case wasn't brought with much vigor at the client's request. The case was decided on the very slim evidence contained in the record on Sam's security procedures. Not much was introduced into the record regarding actual incident reports and criminal police reports for the area. An expert was not retained.

Hence, my above advice involved obtaining that information from the Esplanade and the Kenner Police Department to build a case. All of this is easily done ahead of time and with a Louisiana Public Records Request. These cases are alive and well in Louisiana. I have worked on several since the Louisiana Supreme Court's decision with success.

By the way, if you were an experienced lawyer actually working in the Louisiana Civil Law, you wouldn't place so much stock in anything that the Louisiana Supreme Court writes in its caselaw. Louisiana doesn't follow its own caselaw like in common law States. We have jurisprudence constante and one simple case doesn't create a brightline rule for many factors that I will not explain in a public forum.

Don't interpret the law if you're not licensed. You give people a false impression about their actual rights under Louisiana law. Your own case against the Esplanade differs with the facts, location, rights involved, and protections sought. This might be the last time that I attempt to give advice in a public forum. Louisiana law and litigation is not for the novice and I don't have time to explain first principles during my day. A property owner in Louisiana still owes a duty to secure its patrons. The balancing test works both ways.

Good luck with your pursuits. You will not get far against the Esplanade without legal assistance.

[tag]

I apoligize if you were offended by my previous post. Since you seem to have a much better understanding of this issue than I do, please justify this statement with actual case references:

It is also important to let the management know that by depriving you of the means to defend yourself, they then become the insurers of their patrons' safety. They become responsible for maintaining the safety of their patrons by taking reasonable means to do so.

I have heard this claim made in this state and in others, and it is frequently made by many posters on internet sites. I have yet to have anyone prove that this is true. I merely posted the supreme court case as evidence to the contrary. It was the best reference I could find on the supreme court web site.

All of this withstanding, I'm not sure I will waste my time doing too much research into my future court case with the Esplanade Mall. The only way I would see a dime out of any business owner like this would be through a long court case and with massive attorneys fees. Since they have proven to be very anti-gun and are creating a dangerous environment, I have no desire to spend any money there. You make take pleasure in sport-suing a business owner if you are harmed on their property, but I have no desire to waste my time and money on such a cause. I would rather focus my efforts on getting the offending policy changed so that these issues never arrise. There are alternative shopping venues here, and I will spend by time and money in those who don't infringe on my legal right to defend myself with a firearm.

I ask again, have you sent a letter to the management yet? With your legal training, it could easily be peppered with case references that support the request to allow legal concealed carry.

[Stoic]

Tag,

I'm not offended. We're both on the same side. But, it's a catch-22 for me to give any legal advice on a public forum. Your inquisitive digging into Louisiana law and the novice, but logical, conclusions that followed forced me to correct the advice and statements made regarding Louisiana law. I wish that law were logical and used common sense--it would make my job much easier! I'm stuck if I give bad advice or allow it to remain regarding the current state of the law.

Send me a PM and I will consider writing a Pro Bono letter on your behalf to the Esplanade if you will take on the role of client. By the way, I don't sport-sue anyone. I mostly defend these cases for property owners at the bequest of major insurance companies, but I have consulted on a few for plaintiff attorney friends. The Esplanade case would involve issues not considered in the Sam's case and I will look into it if you are so inclined to work with me.

I will end this thread with this caveat. Consult an attorney in your area for a full discussion of the law as it pertains to your particular set of facts in your jurisdiction.

[tag]

Sorry buddy, I guess we all get a little worked up sometimes. Just to be clear, I have no case againse the Esplanade, I am merely trying to get them to change a policy that I am against. If they are unwilling, then I will respect their wishes and not carry on their premises and do my shopping elsewhere. Despite disargreeing with their policy, I respect their right to control the conduct of their invitees while on their property. I don't have any desire to get involved in any legal action unless I have a darn good reason. I thank you for your willingness to get involved, but I would request that you put that effort into writing a letter to the mall and requesting they change the policy or they will loose your business.

I'll make you a deal, I won't give out any legal advise, and you won't give out any banking advise. Fair?

[CZ Gunner]

Stoic, Tag,

Sounds like you may want to take this up face to face. Perhaps over a couple boxes of ammo out at one of the J.P. firing ranges .. .

Anything for an excuse to shoot!

Gunner

P.S. Gunner is wondering which defense firm Stoic rides for?

[Stoic]

Tag,

if you're in banking then you will not like the Court's recent decision about Banking security to its patrons in

PINSONNEAULT, et al.,
v.
MERCHANTS & FARMERS BANK & TRUST COMPANY, et al.

This decision came out this month and it applies the balancing test in favor of a bank who had actually implemented some security provisions to its patrons. These cases are decided on the facts.


Tag, I'd be glad to talk this over a box of ammo at the range ,and, maybe, a beer afterwards.

Importantly, no Louisiana court has addressed the duties owed by a business to its patrons whereby the business chooses to disarm its patrons.

[Lord Grey Boots]

Question:

Does the sign have any LEGAL weight, i.e. is the sign as defined/specified per state law or does it quote a suitable section of the legal code?

Otherwise, I believe its just a mall policy. Effectively, a request. Works like this. They make a request. You can say no. They can ask you to leave, IF they find out.

[tag]

Stoic: Thanks for the info, I'll have to read that case when I get home tonight, if I can find it. I'd be happy to go shooting with you sometime. I'll send you a PM

LGB: IIRC, Louisiana does not have any specific language that must be included in their sign. They do, however, give property owners the legal right to restrict concealed carry on their site. Stoic could probably tell you what crime you would be committing, if any. More importantly, if a business or property owner is so anti-gun that they restrict my legal right to self-defense, why would I patronize their business? I believe that property owners should have the right to restrict the behaviors of their invitees, just like I have the right to take my business elsewhere.