Dogs-- how do they know?

[Long Path]

There I was, waiting for the land-owner to come out to where I was waiting at the downed spot of his "bobbed warr" fence, keeping the formerly emancipated bovines I had just chased in penned up by parking myself in the gap (hmph. brings new meaning to my sig line, no?). I was bored, but didn't want to work an accident (car v. cow can be a Very Bad Thing (tm)), so I sat and waited, knowing that when the land owner got there, I was going to have to issue a written warning and some stern words, as this is not the first time, nor even just the 10th time. [sigh] Ah, the life of the small-town police officer.

The cell phone rings. It's the City Secretary. She received a call at the City Hall from an elderly man who claims he's been attacked by three dogs. I ask for the address. She gives it, and it's about 1/2 a mile out of our city. I ask for a return phone number, and she hasn't got it. Name? Heck, no. Why don't people call 911? I ask her, expecting no good info, whether the man was hurt. "Oh, he said he's bleeding, but it's not bad." Well, dadgum. Most of these type calls, people have actually just been barked at by the neighbor's dog, and no more. I check on the ETA of my land owner, and decide to ditch the cattle call. I head over to the bite victim's house. It's out in the county, and thus a Sheriff call, but I'm closer than the nearest deputy, and I don't want to find out later that the man's hurt bad.

I arrive and find an OLD man, that I've met a few times before. He's kinda colorful. He's got a beard that reaches his navel. He wears a 'doo rag, something he's gotten accustomed to doing from 60+ years of riding motorcycles. On nice days he rides his antique Harley, and on rainy days he drives his '41 Ford. He's leaning against his old Ford, with a 4' hardwood dowell balanced on the ground before him. Well, good, he's standing. I ask him about his injuries, and he says it's not much. He lifts his jeans leg and pulls down his bloody sock to show a puncture wound in his left ankle that is probably 3/16 deep. Not serious if it were just a poke from a thorn bush, but not good when it came from the canine tooth of a canine.

I asked what happened. He stated that he'd just come out to get his mail, noticed that the three dogs belonging to the neighbor across the street were out and sitting in the ditch, and was beset upon by them when he turned his back to them to get into his mail box. Like I said, this guy was old, and he wasn't wearing his boots that day, but he must've gotten some good licks in with the Adidas running shoes he was wearing, because his eyes kinda twinkled when he told me he'd kicked them off of him and beaten the one that got hold of him. I asked where the animals were. He pointed. At first I couldn't believe what he was pointing at.
Two off-white/yellow, tail-wagging 50-70 lb mix-breed dogs that looked like they probably had a lot of yellow lab in them. I was skeptical.

"Where's the other one?"
"Oh, he's behind that pickup in the drive. Careful, he's the mean one. He gets started, they'll all come after you."
"Okay. Where'd you get the stick?"
"I use it to lock my sliding glass door. But after you leave, if I have any future problems, I'm bringing out a shotgun."
"Fair enough."

Always being a careful man, I snap open my ASP (weak handed), and start to walk across the street toward the truck to see the third dog. I get perhaps half-way across the street before the third dog comes running around the truck snarling. Ever see an animal completely change in nature? The other two dogs changed demeanor in a milisecond, and came toward me, snarling and barking. I halted my advance across the street. On they came. I gave about half a thought to clocking the nearest one with my baton, but thought: "do I really want to fight 3 dogs with a glorified stick? That's a good way to get bitten." Folks-- I'm not going to get bitten. Not in the middle of a public street. Not if I can help it. As the nearest hound got within 7 feet, I drew my Kimber, knocked the safety off, and pointed the front sight at the tip of the nearest dog's nose. And something amazing happened. They stopped. They immediately turned around, and they took off back to their yard.

Now, I'm 6'5", 260+, and was agressively wielding a 26" long steel expandable baton, and they weren't intimidated at all. But when they saw me draw the pistol, they immediately broke off their impending attack.

How. Did. They. Know?

Curiouser and curiouser.

After they went to their yard, I saw them sit down on their butts with their hind legs sprawled out before them in a manner that I've noticed is somewhat peculiar to only a few breeds. I looked again, and realized that they all had a fair amount of pit bull terrier in them. Hmmm... How did I miss that earlier? When the deputy arrived, I gave him the info, and left.

[Wild Irish]

-to be simplistic. I doubt there are many small-town Lone Star dogs who are not familiar with hunting, gunfire, what have you. Their non-linear minds long ago made a connection with boomsticks and blood. The daily news is full of criminal humans who, knowing the dangers of firearms, choose to ignore the realities and procede forthwith, almost guaranteeing themselves front page/ film-at-eleven exposure.
Besides, most dogs are smarter than most people. We work 8, often more hours most days of the year, coming home tired and ready to rest, in order to do it tomorrow.
Dogs hang out in the yard/pasture/driveway, nap in the sun, watch butterflies, drink some water, mark the fence post, maybe dig a hole, nap some more, and then the human comes home and dishes 'em up some victuals. Now it's stick throwing time, ear scratch time, listen to the human talk about the day time.
For a dog, every day is Saturday.

[Bud Helms]

Something about you changed. I expect that the instant you drew the boomer, your entire body started transmitting a new message. Dogs read that stuff real good. They knew 'cause you told 'em.

I'm curious, did you let the asp fall, pitch it away from you or did you keep a grip on it while you drew the Kimber.

[dfaugh]

I train dogs for Schutzhund Sport and Personal Protection, and train/with know alot of K-9 trainers, too... And the short answer is same as sensops...Your body language means everything to the dog....I have absolutely no fear of being bitten by a "vicious" dog (most aren't, and 99% of all dog bites are "provoked", but I don't mean intentionally)...In fact, I can chase most any dog into the next county, strictly by "attitude".... I suspect that had the old guy kept his wits about him (hard to do when faced with snarling dog, I know) he wouldn't have been bitten...He's also right about another thing...Pack behavior...Dogs will act/react very differently when together, as opposed to singly(safety in numbers, etc.)I ahve a female that's scared s**tless of strangers...UNLESS she's with my 125 lb "alpha male", then she becomes "tough girl"...You were also right about the baton...Had you started whacking the dogs, I can almost guarantee they would've "escalated"....Just be aware that dogs can soak up some SERIOUS lead before they stop...know some LEOs that put 4 rounds into a Rotty...while he was munching on several of them...Real unfortunate part was they were in wrong house (but that's another story....

[Spectre]

My little sweetie was always paranoid around firearms, even though she had never been around while I was firing them. She wasn't afraid of my blades, though.

[NIGHTWATCH]

Excellent topic. I have had many dogs in my lifetime and they almost all had this instinct for danger or intent. Like a stranger walking towards me. The have the ability to read people in ways we cant.
I for one dont believe it was you who let them know, you who changed.
I have a female pit-bull who has been in the family for about 11 years. She is a big softy. She is the most un-aggressive dog we have ever owned.
One day, I was in the bedroom with Ruby (the dog) and decided to wipe down my shotgun with a silicone treated towel that I use. She often sleeps at the foot of the bed near the door. Anyway, I reached into the gun cabinet for my shotgun. As I brought it to my side, her composure changed. She looked slowely from side to side as if seeking a way out. I put the shotgun on the bed and reassured her a little bit. But sure enough, when I was reaching for the gun, she had her eye on me. And she never has been able to be comfortable around it. It is almost as if she senses a shift in power or ability. Unlike a broomstick or mop. I dont know how but they know. Its uncanny. All the more reason to own one in home defense. Great thread.

[Long Path]

It actually seemed that way, Nightwatch. But intellectually, that makes zero sense, to me.

That's the thing, Spectre-- I doubt very seriously that these dogs have ever seen a gun discharged. They live in the middle of a trailer park.

Clearly something about my overall appearance changed, in their minds. But I would have thought that the dogs would understand "Big man with stick held agressively means back off" more easily than they would understand "same guy with smaller stick in his hand means back off."

To answer your question, Sensop, I didn't drop the baton. (Otherwise I might have thought that the clattering had something to do with it.) I just drew to a modified Harry's Technique, so that my weak hand (still holding the baton) lay partially open with my two smallest fingers still retaining the baton but with my thumb, middle, and index fingers so that it pointed up to my weak side at about a 45 degree angle from under the pistol, while still attempting to provide what remnant of a Weaver hold that I could. This part wasn't planned, and honestly, if I'd shot any of 'em, I'd've probably broken my two-handed grip if they got any closer. As soon as they broke off, I reholstered while maintaining a watch on the dogs. I then did a check around to see who among the neighborhood had seen me just draw down on their neighborhood curs. Two mothers in their early 20's, shouted something to the extent of "Why don'tcha shoot 'em? They come after all of us!" Whole thing, from dogs running up to reholster, was about 3 seconds.

I know what the stimulous was that fired the dogs up-- I was walking toward their turf. Not that this mitigates their actions, and I would feel on firm ground shooting into a pack of attacking dogs. What was interesting was that stopping in my tracks did not slow their charge, nor did holding my stick across my body ready for a back-hand swipe. But reaching down, thumb-breaking my holster (it's a very quiet snap), breaking leather, knocking off the (also quiet) safety, and pointing the dull grey (bead blasted stainless) 1911A1 .45 at the first one shut them all down. I wouldn't have taken that to be such an agressive gesture. I certainly went toward them with the attitude that if one they came at me I'd whack him with my baton. But initial attitude apparently doesn't have everything to do with it.

[C.R.Sam]

Yup
body language, including the draw.
And possibly scent.

Sam

[croyance]

From your own post, it looks like you were, at the least, uncertain about the results the baton would have gotten. As you say, an expensive stick.
You, rightfully, had more confidence in the Kimber. Your demeanor would have changed. That is what the dogs reacted to, in my opinion. People notice these things to, but dogs seem to be better.
More interesting is how they played innocent afterwards, just like people would.

[BigG]

I agree that the dogs picked up on your changed attitude. Animals are naturally subordinate to man and hesitate to attack unless provoked. You just showed you were the big dog when you whipped out your piece.

Agree the old man probably made some signal like withdrawing that signalled dogs that this is prey.

Dogs are smart.

[Quartus]

Dogs are smart. Weird smart sometimes.


Sometimes they're wrong. I had a dog that was an absolute racist. Had him since he was weaned, and know his history before that. First time he saw a black person he went berserk. And he didn't even see them before he reacted.

We were on a public beach (Corona Del Mar, Calif) and I noticed a black family come set up shop about 50' inland from us. The breeze is off the ocean, so he couldn't have smelled them. He was on his belly (kind of a sphinx posture) looking towards the ocean, just relaxing. Then he stiffened, got up, and looked around. When he spotted them, he went into full battle mode.

Had I not had him on a leash someone would have gotten bitten.

Weird.

So, how do they know? I dunno, but they know.

[guntalkradio]

Most any dog thats familiar with firearms, knows that Kimber is a quality, reliable handgun that shoots a large, often lethal caliber. You can bet that they would've attacked if you'd have pulled a Lorcin.

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[NIGHTWATCH]

Im sticking with my original observations based on an experience of my own. Most dogs are keenly aware of the supernatural. I know, intellectually this may sound beat, but seeing is believing.

I had a friend who was apartment shopping one day. I went along with him cause I had nothing better to do that day. To make a long story short, his dog would not enter the apartment. It turned out after speaking with the landlord that a women was brutally murdered there some 30 years prior and that there was a history of complaints from previous tenants. Believe it or not.

[Jim March]

Well whatever is going on (and I vote for "your demeanor" from my own experiences), it's not just dogs.

I've read many accounts of bears doing this. I personally saw one case:

Early '70s, my pop took us on a "dream vacation" to a cabin on a lake somewhere in Alaska...we were dropped off by floatplane. Guns were *required* by law, this was Griz country.

One day, we came out of the cabin to find to Griz cubs playing on the porch. Cute, but where's "mommy"?

Pop herds us all back in, unslings his 30-06 and fires two rounds into the lake through the cracked door...then slams it, bolts it, quietly reloads in the middle of the room while whispering to us to shut up.

Sure enough, "mommy" grabbed the cubs and headed for the high hills. So there's two cubs that learned from "mom" that gunfire equals danger.

If bears are frequently dragging their young away from the sound of gunfire, it would seem that warning shots are perhaps indicated. But I've read many reports of bears backing off just on seeing a gun pointed at 'em, just like the dogs.

[Dagny]

Supernatural and telepathy.
Before you guys close your keyboards, seriously, it's happened to me and my family.

Long Path,
You telepathed to them that you were dead, as in disemboweled dead, serious when you drew the gun. A stick the three of them could deal with.

No? There was the time I was coming home from over a thousand miles away. My dog back home "knew" when I had made the decision to come home. This my parents told me.

How many times have any of you done something that got a reaction from your dog when you know darn well their hearing is not THAT good?

They read minds or at least the emotional broadcast. They''ve learned to do that over their millenia association with humans. Those who don't die early or at least get verbal and physical reinforcement of the "mental clues" they received moments before.

This all relates closely to WyldOne's experience being accosted on a Boston bus bench and the advice many here had for how to handle it.

Again, strong emotional broadcast of "don't mess with me or else, serious "else" can get the attention of many humans. Unfortuately many tune out the reception to these clues. These "deaf" and "dumb" humans in greater numbers than those who are "tuned in". They also don't get along socially and thus don't have as many kids. Over millenia, it works. But it works better with dogs because they listen. Humans don't.

[Foxy]

Anyone read White Fang (I believe - either that or Call of the Wild) by Jack London? Similar incident there involving a dog and a gun.

[Edward429451]

Maybe some dogs are smarter than others. The shepard/rottie looking mix that attacked me kept charging when my government model came out. I had to fire once into the grass to get it to break off the attack. Maybe he wasnt so smart or maybe I still looked scared. I was was still scared you know, but determined not to let him get his fangs in me.

Guess they cant smell determination. Maybe he didnt fear the smell of my CLP, but he feared the smell of your hoppes! (Or whatever)

Glad you werent hurt.

[Long Path]

Thanks, 'though getting hurt never crossed my mind, to speak of. It was more the insult. I will not be bitten in the middle of a public street while lawfully going about my business (or in this case, duties). Most of the reason for being so cautious was to avoid a situation in which I would simply have to fire a minimum of 3 shots toward the pavement in the middle of a residential neighborhood with houses made of little more substantial material than cardboard and pressboard.

[Spackler]

I have no doubt about dogs and their sense of the supernatural. No doubt at all.

Geez, I love dogs.

[NIGHTWATCH]

Me too.

[Betty]

No? There was the time I was coming home from over a thousand miles away. My dog back home "knew" when I had made the decision to come home. This my parents told me.

Dagny, I've had the same thing happen. We were dogsitting my granpa's bloodhound Sam for a week. We weren't even sure what day gramps was going to be back from vacation. Sam was always a very docile, relaxed, quiet dog, but he went nuts about two hours before grandpa came. He stared at the door, howled and paced about, acting completely strange until grandpa came up the driveway. That creeped allof us out.

Dogs are very good at determining emotion in people; my grandma's dog Girl, half-Lab, half-Retriever, could always tell when I was sad and would stick her head in my lap, look up at me and cheer me up.

[Chuck Dye]

Nightwatch: sounds like Ruby was culturally deprived. My last Lab, the Admiral (in a Navy family, he absolutely outranked EVERYONE) had to be locked out of the room if anyone wanted to handle guns. A gun meant a field trip to that dog and he expressed his readiness in no uncertain terms. We learned, and follow up cleanings and maintenance were handled accordingly. The reaction extended to the public. The first time we met an LEO in the park, Admiral (3+ years old) went on guard against the uniform until the side arm came into view, then it was intant love. Luckily, the Deputy was a lifelong dog owner and handled both behaviors with aplomb.

[bruels]

A year and a half ago I had to take Gracie, my twelve year old whippet, to the vet for urgent surgery. She hadn't eaten in almost three weeks and an ultrasound showed she had an extra mass in her abdomen. The doctor called me a few hours later and said he could do nothing for Gracie. I told him not to let her wake up.

My other dogs immediately knew something was wrong. I took Joy, my ten year old whippet and Gracie's best buddy, with me to retrieve Gracie's body for cremation. Joy knew that I needed comforting and hugged my side all the way to the vet's office. I collected Gracie in the box the vet put her in and put her in the back of the truck. I petted her faithful head one last time.

When I got in the cab, Joy sniffed my hand and got very upset. I had to work some to calm her down. I dropped Gracie off at animal control. Our county animal control officer will perform individual cremations for a reasonable fee.

I took Joy home and the "message" spread rapidly through the rest of the home pack. They were extra loving and close for the next couple of days until I picked up the urn with Gracie's remains. After that things sort of returned to normal.

One of the whippets is Gracie's daughter. She is almost the mirror image of her mother. There are times when the light is dim I look at Dottie and swear Gracie is back.

You can't tell me they don't "know," and don't "come back" when you miss them very much.
Bruce

[Mike Irwin]

How did they know?

Simple.

They saw the change in your demeaor and your stance.

Remember, for dogs, virtually their entire language is visual -- body posture and head and tail position. Vocalizations are much less important for dogs than they are for humans.

They may also have had some experience with firearms before, either from the owner shooting, or from someone shooting at them.

My dogs head upstairs when they see me bring a pistol out.

I guess they don't like the sound of dry firing. I've never fired it with them around, I've never pointed it at them, but they know they don't like it.

[Mike Irwin]

The dogs live in the middle of a trailer park and have never seen a gun discharged?

They certainly don't live in the trailer parks near where I grew up, then.