Austin, Tx airport and 30.06

Jeff OTMG · July 8, 2002, 12:14 AM

I was finally able to fly out of the Austin airport during the Independence Day holiday. There is what is debatibly a valid 30.06 sign restricting the carry of handguns within the airport terminal. Under Texas law this restricts the carry of a handgun from the front door of the terminal to the ticket counter where one would declare a firearm to the commercial carrier. Instead I went to the skycap bag check on the curb and explained that I needed to check the bag and declare unloaded firearms. This has always been a no-no for skycap ckeck in, BUT at Southwest Airlines they were ready to accomodate me. No more restrictions on curbside check in for gun toters. There would be a problem if I had not already purchased a ticket as that can only be done at the ticket counter. I do not know if the other airlines have made the same accomdations, but I will find out soon I am sure because I like testing them. Be careful of what you ask for because you just might get it. I was prepared to demand that a police officer be called to carry my bags to the ticket counter and stand in line with me. It wouldn't be legal for a SWA employee to do it either. The sign is technically invalid anyway since the law states that it must be in 'contrasting colors' and the sign at Austin is letters stuck to a glass window and in no spectrum that I have seen is 'clear' a color.

Drizzt · July 8, 2002, 07:52 AM

I believe that the 30.06 sign prohibits you from carrying in 'CHL' mode, but a firearm unloaded and packed in baggage to be checked, should not be an issue. As always though, IANAL.

On a similar issue, though, this weekend I was walking into Time Warner Cable, in N. Austin, and noticed that the lobby was posted as No Carry. The thing is, it was posted with the 4413 statute, not the 30.06, so I don't know about it's validity. Was that the old method of posting No Carry?

KSFreeman · July 8, 2002, 07:57 AM

Yeah, I noticed the same thing when I was down in Tejas (Saint Tony's) in April. I saw about 8 or 9 different types of "no guns" signs.

No wonder there are always these threads.

Hopefully Tejas will get it sorted out by the time our reciprocity agreement goes through (hear me, DPS?).

Jeff OTMG · July 8, 2002, 08:19 AM

Drizzt, you are correct that the 30.06 applies to CHL mode, but a CHL holder must comply with the sign at all times. Any handgun 'on or about the person', even if in your luggage, is covered by the CHL in Texas. I did have a loaded S&W 342 in my pocket BTW. I unloaded and packed it in the luggage as the skycap watched and have done the same at the ticket counter. Ammo goes in the ammo box I carry. I load up in the bathroom near baggage claim before I leave the terminal. Loaded firearm as close to 24/7 for me.

HankB · July 8, 2002, 08:24 AM

The law was changed and the PC 30.06 language added because of the confusing plethora of "no guns" signs that popped up.

There are a number of places off limits to CHL holders (secured areas of airports, places that make more than 51% of their profit by sale of liquor for on-premesis consumption, courtrooms, many Federal facilities, etc.) which are defined in the law. But other than those, a CHL holder may carry anywhere other than where he's been given notice that he can't. Posting a PC 30.06 COMPLIANT sign is valid notice.

Under the law, posting a non-compliant sign does not constitute valid notice. A CHL holder may (and should, IMHO) legally ignore it. The statute defines what a "compliant" sign is.

I agree with "clear" not being a contrasting color . . . but these days, I wouldn't care to be the test case if an airport was involved. (Perhaps TSRA or someone with more clout than I have could solicit an opinion on "clear" being a contrasting color from the Texas AG?)

Drizzt is right when he says that a PC30.06 sign only applies to carrying in concealed mode. Cased, unloaded, locked in luggage, declared at check-in, is OK. (Don't try to put it in your carry-on bag. There's about a 42% chance the security screeners will detect it, and then you're in DEEP trouble!)

Halffast · July 8, 2002, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Yeah, I noticed the same thing when I was down in Tejas (Saint Tony's) in April. I saw about 8 or 9 different types of "no guns" signs.

KS,

Most of those signs are just to keep the bliss-ninnies happy.

David

Greybeard · July 8, 2002, 12:57 PM

I'm afraid DPS does not have a lot of control over the varied types of (non-comliant) signs that the bliss-ninnies may put up. The 1997 legislature passed the change in law to implement the specific 30.06 verbiage and specs.

Regarding non-compliant signs, last time I was in Austin for instructor renewal skul, DPS lawyer said "I'm not saying that you can't be PROSECUTED if you go past one of those signs and get caught. I'm saying that you can't be prosecuted SUCCESSFULLY."

mec · July 8, 2002, 02:57 PM

this issue of odd-ball signs has been brought up in committe by TSRA and will be the subject of legislation next (bienneal ) session. Especially, the posting of public buildings by government agencies. 30-06 clearly states the sign must be as above, and in the exact language in the law posted in both english and spanish. An amazing number of people, including police don't know the law.

One interesting question- if you are carrying in a place where you have a right to be and the place is posted, are you really a trespasser???

KSFreeman · July 8, 2002, 03:41 PM

Halffast, very good. I'm sure you're correct. Most of the signs I see in St. Tony's are in the touristy places where the guy who looks like he walked out of the Territory Ahead catalogue goes with his camera.

When I was done there in the fall of `01, I noticed this couple from Chicago at the bus stop to El Mercado. They were in shock at the "No guns" signs. I inserted myself into the conversation being neighborly and all.

"I just can't imagine having to put up signs to prevent people0 with hidden weapon [or something like that] from coming into a store," Sally Soccermommie. "Yeah, me too. In Indiana, there are no signs and we don't have to hide them." Long silence . . . .

Coming back down this fall. Get on DPS for me would ya?

Halffast · July 8, 2002, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Get on DPS for me would ya?

Yeah, KS, I'll get right on that. Should have it all straightened out by the time you get here.

Let me know when your coming and maybe we can get together for some enchiladas. None of that overpriced touristy stuff either. Or at least a Shiner. Your buying!

David

Blackhawk · July 8, 2002, 05:43 PM

Another thing I love about Texas is that it is called the "thirty ought six" sign!

King · July 8, 2002, 06:52 PM

My $.02....airport security "might" consider a weapon packed in one's luggage to be checked in as concealed. Depends on their definition. Checking it right away at curb side seems pretty the prudent move and the best way to avoid a hassle to me. Jeff, I think you handled it correctly. In other words, don't push your luck with so much emphasis on airport terrorism that we are experiencing these days.

On the issue of 30.06 signs and whether they are legal or not, my view is that you go ahead and carry concealed when you are faced with entering an establishment with an invalid sign posted. Just don't bring it up and keep it concealed. In other words, don't ask and don't tell.

However, it the posted sign is invalid but happens to be stuck to a building that the law prohibits concealed carry anyway, then don't carry (ie; an establishment that is obviously a bar and makes it's revenue primarily from the sale of alcohol).

TexasVet · July 9, 2002, 10:26 PM

Another thing I love about Texas is that it is called the "thirty ought six" sign!
______________________________________

Blackhawk, that actually began as a joke by the state Rep who wrote the CHL law. He put in there that you could carry anywhere that did not display the sign as described in Section 30.06. Which DIDN'T exist. AFTER the CHL law passed, someone finally noticed that it was a scam, and they had to go and pass a law with that number to fit the CHL law. He told us at the HGCA meeting once and we all cracked up.

Not all pols are idiots. Unfortunately, he has left the Legislature (on his own), but ,fortunately, is now working to free up the rest of Texas gun laws as a lobbyist.

July 8, 2002, 12:14 AM	#1
Jeff OTMG Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Austin, Tx (for now) Posts: 3,548	Austin, Tx airport and 30.06 I was finally able to fly out of the Austin airport during the Independence Day holiday. There is what is debatibly a valid 30.06 sign restricting the carry of handguns within the airport terminal. Under Texas law this restricts the carry of a handgun from the front door of the terminal to the ticket counter where one would declare a firearm to the commercial carrier. Instead I went to the skycap bag check on the curb and explained that I needed to check the bag and declare unloaded firearms. This has always been a no-no for skycap ckeck in, BUT at Southwest Airlines they were ready to accomodate me. No more restrictions on curbside check in for gun toters. There would be a problem if I had not already purchased a ticket as that can only be done at the ticket counter. I do not know if the other airlines have made the same accomdations, but I will find out soon I am sure because I like testing them. Be careful of what you ask for because you just might get it. I was prepared to demand that a police officer be called to carry my bags to the ticket counter and stand in line with me. It wouldn't be legal for a SWA employee to do it either. The sign is technically invalid anyway since the law states that it must be in 'contrasting colors' and the sign at Austin is letters stuck to a glass window and in no spectrum that I have seen is 'clear' a color.

July 8, 2002, 07:52 AM	#2
Drizzt Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2000 Location: Going Out of My Head at a Rapid Pace..... Posts: 2,511	I believe that the 30.06 sign prohibits you from carrying in 'CHL' mode, but a firearm unloaded and packed in baggage to be checked, should not be an issue. As always though, IANAL. On a similar issue, though, this weekend I was walking into Time Warner Cable, in N. Austin, and noticed that the lobby was posted as No Carry. The thing is, it was posted with the 4413 statute, not the 30.06, so I don't know about it's validity. Was that the old method of posting No Carry? __________________ "That a free citizen should have to go before a committee, hat in hand, and pray for permission to bear arms - fantastic! Arm your daughter, sir, and pay no attention to petty bureaucrats." Robert Heinlein - Red Planet

July 8, 2002, 07:57 AM	#3
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,404	Yeah, I noticed the same thing when I was down in Tejas (Saint Tony's) in April. I saw about 8 or 9 different types of "no guns" signs. No wonder there are always these threads. Hopefully Tejas will get it sorted out by the time our reciprocity agreement goes through (hear me, DPS?). __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

July 8, 2002, 08:24 AM	#5
HankB Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2000 Location: Central Texas, outside of Austin Posts: 1,670	The law was changed and the PC 30.06 language added because of the confusing plethora of "no guns" signs that popped up. There are a number of places off limits to CHL holders (secured areas of airports, places that make more than 51% of their profit by sale of liquor for on-premesis consumption, courtrooms, many Federal facilities, etc.) which are defined in the law. But other than those, a CHL holder may carry anywhere other than where he's been given notice that he can't. Posting a PC 30.06 COMPLIANT sign is valid notice. Under the law, posting a non-compliant sign does not constitute valid notice. A CHL holder may (and should, IMHO) legally ignore it. The statute defines what a "compliant" sign is. I agree with "clear" not being a contrasting color . . . but these days, I wouldn't care to be the test case if an airport was involved. (Perhaps TSRA or someone with more clout than I have could solicit an opinion on "clear" being a contrasting color from the Texas AG?) Drizzt is right when he says that a PC30.06 sign only applies to carrying in concealed mode. Cased, unloaded, locked in luggage, declared at check-in, is OK. (Don't try to put it in your carry-on bag. There's about a 42% chance the security screeners will detect it, and then you're in DEEP trouble!) __________________ To be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself - Sun Tzu

July 8, 2002, 12:57 PM	#7
Greybeard Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2002 Location: Denton County Texas Posts: 635	I'm afraid DPS does not have a lot of control over the varied types of (non-comliant) signs that the bliss-ninnies may put up. The 1997 legislature passed the change in law to implement the specific 30.06 verbiage and specs. Regarding non-compliant signs, last time I was in Austin for instructor renewal skul, DPS lawyer said "I'm not saying that you can't be PROSECUTED if you go past one of those signs and get caught. I'm saying that you can't be prosecuted SUCCESSFULLY." __________________ www.dentoncountysports.com A Private Palace for Pistol Proficiency

July 8, 2002, 08:19 AM	#4
Jeff OTMG Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Austin, Tx (for now) Posts: 3,548	Drizzt, you are correct that the 30.06 applies to CHL mode, but a CHL holder must comply with the sign at all times. Any handgun 'on or about the person', even if in your luggage, is covered by the CHL in Texas. I did have a loaded S&W 342 in my pocket BTW. I unloaded and packed it in the luggage as the skycap watched and have done the same at the ticket counter. Ammo goes in the ammo box I carry. I load up in the bathroom near baggage claim before I leave the terminal. Loaded firearm as close to 24/7 for me.

July 8, 2002, 02:57 PM	#8
mec Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,383	this issue of odd-ball signs has been brought up in committe by TSRA and will be the subject of legislation next (bienneal ) session. Especially, the posting of public buildings by government agencies. 30-06 clearly states the sign must be as above, and in the exact language in the law posted in both english and spanish. An amazing number of people, including police don't know the law. One interesting question- if you are carrying in a place where you have a right to be and the place is posted, are you really a trespasser???

July 8, 2002, 03:41 PM	#9
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,404	Halffast, very good. I'm sure you're correct. Most of the signs I see in St. Tony's are in the touristy places where the guy who looks like he walked out of the Territory Ahead catalogue goes with his camera. When I was done there in the fall of `01, I noticed this couple from Chicago at the bus stop to El Mercado. They were in shock at the "No guns" signs. I inserted myself into the conversation being neighborly and all. "I just can't imagine having to put up signs to prevent people0 with hidden weapon [or something like that] from coming into a store," Sally Soccermommie. "Yeah, me too. In Indiana, there are no signs and we don't have to hide them." Long silence . . . . Coming back down this fall. Get on DPS for me would ya? __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

July 8, 2002, 05:43 PM	#11
Blackhawk Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2001 Posts: 5,053	Another thing I love about Texas is that it is called the "thirty ought six" sign!

July 8, 2002, 06:52 PM	#12
King Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2002 Location: Austin Texas Posts: 297	My $.02....airport security "might" consider a weapon packed in one's luggage to be checked in as concealed. Depends on their definition. Checking it right away at curb side seems pretty the prudent move and the best way to avoid a hassle to me. Jeff, I think you handled it correctly. In other words, don't push your luck with so much emphasis on airport terrorism that we are experiencing these days. On the issue of 30.06 signs and whether they are legal or not, my view is that you go ahead and carry concealed when you are faced with entering an establishment with an invalid sign posted. Just don't bring it up and keep it concealed. In other words, don't ask and don't tell. However, it the posted sign is invalid but happens to be stuck to a building that the law prohibits concealed carry anyway, then don't carry (ie; an establishment that is obviously a bar and makes it's revenue primarily from the sale of alcohol). __________________ "King"

July 9, 2002, 10:26 PM	#13
TexasVet Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2000 Location: DeepEastTexas Posts: 1,102	Another thing I love about Texas is that it is called the "thirty ought six" sign! ______________________________________ Blackhawk, that actually began as a joke by the state Rep who wrote the CHL law. He put in there that you could carry anywhere that did not display the sign as described in Section 30.06. Which DIDN'T exist. AFTER the CHL law passed, someone finally noticed that it was a scam, and they had to go and pass a law with that number to fit the CHL law. He told us at the HGCA meeting once and we all cracked up. Not all pols are idiots. Unfortunately, he has left the Legislature (on his own), but ,fortunately, is now working to free up the rest of Texas gun laws as a lobbyist. __________________ Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 68-70 You are What you do When it counts.