How about a .27 Magnum Pocket Pistol

[Jody Hudson]

The small pocket pistols aka Keltec .32 and such are recently very popular but the .32 is considered by Americans as too small, too slow and not enough penetration.

What would be the problems of, for instance, a cartridge like the following, in a Keltec .32 style pistol, where the pistol is about 20% larger and heavier; still small and light.

.27 caliber bullet of about 71 grains

The brass or aluminum cartridge could be a longer but necked down .32 caliber.

This should allow a longish (for penetration) bullet that could be sent along it's way at about 1100 fps with a deeper hollow point for more expansion and scibed to petal out like a Barnes Bullet design.

It seems like, to me, that this would all be easily within the Keltec pressures, etc. And, would allow for a 9 or 10 shot magazine (the 15-20% larger that a K-32 design would allow).

My guess is, that there is nothing new under the sun... There is probably a cartridge something like this already, from the past. With the modern materials we have for these little pocket pistols it seems like this could be a viable little pocket rocket.

Now, I look to be educated on why this would not work...

Deeply penetrating, 71 grain HP at 1100 fps from a micro pistol with 10 shots.

[Blackhawk]

Now, I look to be educated on why this would not work...

Simple economics.

There is no demand, therefore no supply. I say that because I've never heard of a .27 Magnum cartridge. When you invent and produce it, maybe you will create a demand for it.

There is a demand for a smaller, MORE powerful mouse gun, so Rohrbaugh is coming out in October with their 9mm pistols that are shorter than a P-32 but weigh 14 ounces -- a Mighty Mouse gun....

[Mannlicher]

to paraphrase the Bard, "a mouse gun in any other caliber, would squeek the same. "

[Jim March]

Cor-Bon and NAA have teamed up on the ".32NAA caliber, which is a .380-length-and-sized critter necked down to .32. They're getting over 1,100fps in very short barrels.

They're not actually necking down 380s because the results would be too short. It's actually a 9mmPara shell necked, and then chopped to an overall length similar to a 380. The resulting guns use standard 380 mags, and need nothing more than a barrel swap from 380 to the new caliber.

Sounds pretty slick, basically an auto version of the .32H&RMagnum.

[Jody Hudson]

Sounds like the Mouse will Roar soon...

[Jamie Young]

And, would allow for a 9 or 10 shot magazine (the 15-20% larger that a K-32 design would allow).

I think you've designed a better mouse gun but I still don't like pocket pistols all that much.

[C.R.Sam]

Neckin .32 case to .27 not going to magically allow more in the space occupied by the old .32.

Sam

[labgrade]

I'd like to see something along the lines of a .38 Super necked down to 6mm - something like the .357 Sig but 9mm case diameter size. Standard "sig-like" neck & minimal bullet protrusion - maybe seated right at the ogive tangent.

Shoots a 6mm Barnes-type 90 gr at 2000 fps.

Hi-Power platform ... what's not to like?

[Jamie Young]

Shoots a 6mm Barnes-type 90 gr at 2000 fps.

I wonder if you'd be doing Pete Townshend "windmills" every time you shot a pocket pistol that shot something like that.

[labgrade]

, Soda

I don't know why that'd be such a big deal. A 125 at 1200's not that far off far as recoil'd be & with a decent mini-comp (we can dream, no?)

Besides, I've all the old Who AND Van Halen videos - I practice - Matrix-like.

[Jamie Young]

There's nothing wrong with having a little "suave" or "cool" during a gun fight. Practicing "windmills" with a pocket pistol might be a good idea for taking on BGs in front of you and behind you. Or practice the Curly Shuffle if you want to get really good.

[CWL]

So what is a .27 magnum round? Some sort of wildcat?

[Jody Hudson]

C.R. Sam,

That .32 is LONGER to get the added capacity. And, the smaller bullet that I dream of is a long and skinny one, for instance .27 caliber at about 70 to 73 grains. I just like the stability and penetration of the longer bullets.

[Hal]

I think what Sam is getting at here is that changing the front diameter of the case doesn't alleviate the capacity restrictions on the back end of the case.,,,may even add to the problems since by making the slug smaller the only way to retain weight is to make it longer,,,longer means it has to be seated deeper and deeper seating raises pressures.

According to my Lyman manual:
a 77 gr .32acp slug can do 6xx fps at 7000 CUP. (copper units of pressure)
The same weight slug at 8xx fps needs 15,000 CUP.
If that slug is .32 caliber or .27 caliber it still weighs the same. Weight is what drives up pressures, not velocity alone.
To jump that slug to 1100fps, you may be looking at 30,000 CUP or more without the deeper seating being factored in.

If Cor-Bon and NAA can pull off their bit of firearm alchemy that's great! I suspect the real reason behind using 9mmLuger brass is because of the working pressures. 9mm Luger brass is made to order for that pressure.

[Jody Hudson]

Excellent Post RAE! That is the sort of thing that I was wondering about.

Now, would the pressures still be the same if that longer bullet were not seated so deeply?

[MrAcheson]

Weight is not the only thing that will drive up pressures. The smaller diameter bullet would actually require higher pressures to achieve the same velocities as the larger diameter one if it is the same weight. This is because the cross sectional area on which the pressure field can act is smaller and therefore the force to accelerate the bullet is smaller. Therefore you need more force i.e. more pressure to get the same results.

This is why you can buy ruger only .45lc rounds that meet or surpass .44mags. The .45 has more cross sectional area even though it has to operate at lower pressures because of thinner chamber walls.

[Jody Hudson]

Thanks, that makes sense

[sox]

My vote is for a .38 special with a 60 grain Fiocchi JHP sabot pushin 1200-1300FPS! for the lighter frame guns.

[C.R.Sam]

RAE read me right.

Sam

[Hal]

MrAcheson is correct. This is why the .45lc using a 255 gr slug can be loaded to the same veocity as a .44Mag using a 240 gr slug, and still have ar less pressure. My first post is somewhat misleading in that respect. I was thinking along the lines of using x grains of powder behind a 71 gr bullet. If you use the same x grains of the same powder, but move to a heavier bullet, then the pressure goes up with it. Sorry not to be clearer.

[Eric Larsen]

In regards to barrel swapping the NAA Guardian...380/32 NAA. Wouldnt you have to swap the frame out? The barrel is part of it.
They are getting over 1200 FPS out of the little monster...200 FPE and compared to the 380 version...even with Hi end Corbon ammo its only generating 180 FPE...sounds good to me.
Shoot well

[Jim March]

SOX has the right idea!

Let's get crazier...a .357Mag case with a sabot and a .223 55grainer doing...Gawd, I wonder what's possible in something strong, like a .357 Blackhawk or GP100!?

Or hell, why stop there, go to .44Mag driving that load, try for something past 2,200fps and secondary shock wave effects?

[Alex Johnson]

I'm still waiting for them to bring the officers model phaser in Star Trek NG to life. Something small and light enough to stick in your pocket, yet still powerful enough to take on a light armoured vehicle, that's a true mouse gun.

[dntorbert]

for the serious side: would the extra length of the heavier bullet couse extra drag in bore and therefore increased presure....also i read an artical somewhere about necking down the 32 to 25 and that seemed like a good idea but never heard anything else about it
for the not serious side: I have nothiced that the internal diameter for cci's shot capsules for reloading is about .309-.311 which happens to match up to the outside diameter of the .223 to 308 sabots for loading 223 bullets in 308 cases soooooo....... we could load 223 bullets in a double saboted 357 maybe.....

[Jamie Young]

RAE read me right.

Atleast someone around here understands ya C.R.Sam.